Drove a 330i for the 2nd time
10-10-05, 02:26 PM
#16
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by rominl
percy, so you saying that with the ml systems, upgrading the speakers would give it much better results huh>
With the Dyns you'll get better power handling, better dispersion, better (and more neutral) sound quality, all the good stuff. I've listened to the ML stock system and it's impressive, but NOT NEUTRAL sounding. Even with the controls toned down, the system will have a distinct "ringing" and harshness from the metal domes. And that's before I found out they had metal domes. My first thought when the system powered on (next to a sales rep) was "they're using metal domes". He looked at me funny.
Here's the clincher...my Pioneer stock Lexus system with Dyns provide 90% of the sound quality of the ML system. Had it tested out with the dealership manager, who is also a audio guru. Now if I had the ML amps, processors and electronics WITH the Dyns.... Can you see/hear where this would be going?
Evil grin.
Percy
10-10-05, 10:06 PM
#17
Originally Posted by Percy
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. I have yet to see a Dyn driver/speaker burn out from normal usage, but I'm reading that tweeters and subs are getting blown with the ML system. Also makes me wonder who MAKES the speakers for the ML.
With the Dyns you'll get better power handling, better dispersion, better (and more neutral) sound quality, all the good stuff. I've listened to the ML stock system and it's impressive, but NOT NEUTRAL sounding. Even with the controls toned down, the system will have a distinct "ringing" and harshness from the metal domes. And that's before I found out they had metal domes. My first thought when the system powered on (next to a sales rep) was "they're using metal domes". He looked at me funny.
Here's the clincher...my Pioneer stock Lexus system with Dyns provide 90% of the sound quality of the ML system. Had it tested out with the dealership manager, who is also a audio guru. Now if I had the ML amps, processors and electronics WITH the Dyns.... Can you see/hear where this would be going?
Evil grin.
Percy
With the Dyns you'll get better power handling, better dispersion, better (and more neutral) sound quality, all the good stuff. I've listened to the ML stock system and it's impressive, but NOT NEUTRAL sounding. Even with the controls toned down, the system will have a distinct "ringing" and harshness from the metal domes. And that's before I found out they had metal domes. My first thought when the system powered on (next to a sales rep) was "they're using metal domes". He looked at me funny.
Here's the clincher...my Pioneer stock Lexus system with Dyns provide 90% of the sound quality of the ML system. Had it tested out with the dealership manager, who is also a audio guru. Now if I had the ML amps, processors and electronics WITH the Dyns.... Can you see/hear where this would be going?
Evil grin.
Percy
so that probbaly means if i change the speakers in my sc430 to better ones, i get even better audio!!!!!
it's always good to know you can have improvements!
10-11-05, 07:02 AM
#18
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Percy, can you please give your input about how you would upgrade a standard system without Levinson? Which speakers would you replace and with what? Would/could you add an amp?
One thing that scares the heck out of me is letting some kid in an audio shop tear my car apart, breaking things along the way. I would definately do speakers myself, but would need someone to deal with the AMP for me.
One thing that scares the heck out of me is letting some kid in an audio shop tear my car apart, breaking things along the way. I would definately do speakers myself, but would need someone to deal with the AMP for me.
10-11-05, 10:05 AM
#19
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Upgrade the speakers. That's the best thing you can do. Speakers that I would recommend (if you have a GS 2nd gen) are Dynaudio MW160 midwoofers and the MD100 tweeters. You can also get their System 240 Mark II which has all of these components including the crossovers. You'll have to modify the stock speaker location (behind door panel) as the stock speakers are only 4 inch rounds for the GS.
As for the IS, haven't taken one apart. They should work with a minimum of hassle since the ML speakers are 6.5 inchers. You might have to modify though.
Amp isn't too tricky. Just find a good spot for the amp (usually the trunk), feed some power and signal wires as well as a remote wire (for turning the amp on and off) and you're on your way.
Taking apart the IS350 - ask your local dealership for service manuals to the car. They should already have them available and the better dealerships will let you copy the pages you need. Don't let some kid work on it...nobody has worked on the IS350 for audio yet that I know of. Too new.
Percy
As for the IS, haven't taken one apart. They should work with a minimum of hassle since the ML speakers are 6.5 inchers. You might have to modify though.
Amp isn't too tricky. Just find a good spot for the amp (usually the trunk), feed some power and signal wires as well as a remote wire (for turning the amp on and off) and you're on your way.
Taking apart the IS350 - ask your local dealership for service manuals to the car. They should already have them available and the better dealerships will let you copy the pages you need. Don't let some kid work on it...nobody has worked on the IS350 for audio yet that I know of. Too new.
Percy
10-11-05, 10:33 AM
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Good advice, thanks very much. It looks like I'm going to order an IS with ML. I highly doubt an AMP will be needed for that configuration, but I'l going to consider a speaker swap after reading your comments.
10-11-05, 06:19 PM
#21
Maybe the settings on the 330i weren't set right, but with the Logic 7 system on, (it can be turned off) I love the sound quality in my 330i. Subwoofers under the front seats are also very nice.
I will try to compare it to the IS350 Levinson system when the dealer by me gets one in.
I will try to compare it to the IS350 Levinson system when the dealer by me gets one in.
10-11-05, 07:13 PM
#22
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The 330i is a fine car. I think it just boils down to personal taste. It didnt agree with me at all.
In terms of sound quality, I had just gotten out of a GS with Mark Levinson, so the contrast most likely corrupted what is most likely a fine sound system.
Thanks for not taking offense from my comments. I'm sure there are a lot of ways BMW is better than Lexus for a lot of people. Anyone who owns one should be proud of their vehicle.
In terms of sound quality, I had just gotten out of a GS with Mark Levinson, so the contrast most likely corrupted what is most likely a fine sound system.
Thanks for not taking offense from my comments. I'm sure there are a lot of ways BMW is better than Lexus for a lot of people. Anyone who owns one should be proud of their vehicle.
10-11-05, 09:44 PM
#23
Definitely right about personal taste. I must have manual transmission, and love sportier cars, so the BMW was a great fit for me. If Lexus ever makes a manual transmission available on the IS350, and something like an L-Sport package, then I'd definitely look into it more in depth.
10-12-05, 09:39 AM
#24
Lexus Champion
Given cabin dimensions and such I suspect the 8" will sound nearly as loud bass-wise as the 10" in the GS. Furthermore with all other factors equal I actually prefer the sound of an 8" to a 10... they just typically sound tighter and more nimbal. I'm not as big of a fan of really really deep bass... give me tight 'impact' bass and I'm happier.
FWIW ML was bought out years ago from Mark Levinson himself by Harman International
Here's a quote from their website on it since it's a little complicated
Needless to say in terms of home audio, at least, I know that I haven't heard any complaints of lacking quality since the buy-out.
FWIW ML was bought out years ago from Mark Levinson himself by Harman International
Here's a quote from their website on it since it's a little complicated
Madrigal (www.madrigal.com) located in Middletown, CT, manufactures high-performance audio and video components under the Audioaccess, Mark Levinson, Proceed, and Revel brands. Madrigal is a Harman International company. The Harman Consumer Systems Group (HCSG) is a leading designer, manufacturer and marketer of a wide range of high-fidelity loudspeakers, audio and video components and multi-media systems for use in homes, automobiles and with computers. The Group’s brands include JBL, Infinity, Harman Kardon, Mark Levinson, Revel, Proceed and Audioaccess. HCSG is a division of Harman International Industries, Inc. Harman International (www.harman.com), is a leading manufacturer of high-quality, high fidelity audio and video products for the consumer and professional markets. The company’s stock is traded in the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol: HAR.
10-12-05, 10:16 AM
#25
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Actually Mark got the "raw deal". He formed a company called Cello and Madrigal/Harman wouldn't let him "take his name" so to speak. Lots of corporate backstabbing. This was covered in an audio magazine back in the mid to late '90s. Reason why they wouldn't let him take back his name...the name "Mark Levinson" sells. Current hot shot (at least back then) of Madrigal did a lot of hurt to Levinson personally.
Time for ML to make a distortion free subwoofer for the 10 inch. Oops...that patent belongs to Velodyne.
Percy
Time for ML to make a distortion free subwoofer for the 10 inch. Oops...that patent belongs to Velodyne.
Percy
10-12-05, 02:07 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by Percy
Time for ML to make a distortion free subwoofer for the 10 inch. Oops...that patent belongs to Velodyne.
Percy
Percy
Do you mean with an active servo setup? Velodyne may have patented a particular type of active servo but they definitely don't have the only active servo subs on the market and nobody holds a patent on the theory/practice of servo subs as a whole. I'm sure we'll see servo subs in the car market before long but it makes sense that they're only in home audio at the moment because OEM car sub manufacturers already know exactly what cabin and environment the sub is going into and can tune it for that. Home sub manufacturers have no idea the dimensions, layout, and other acoustical properties of your home theater area. Active servos can help that.
10-12-05, 02:25 PM
#27
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by Threxx
Distortion free? No sub (or speaker or amp or source) is truely distortion free, though most high quality subs these days are below the human level of perceiving distortion at their rated power output.
***True. Velodyne is rated at around 1 percent for it's operating range up to 113dBA. McIntosh is rated at 0.005% from 20 to 20khz, at below rated power.***
Do you mean with an active servo setup? Velodyne may have patented a particular type of active servo but they definitely don't have the only active servo subs on the market and nobody holds a patent on the theory/practice of servo subs as a whole. I'm sure we'll see servo subs in the car market before long but it makes sense that they're only in home audio at the moment because OEM car sub manufacturers already know exactly what cabin and environment the sub is going into and can tune it for that. Home sub manufacturers have no idea the dimensions, layout, and other acoustical properties of your home theater area. Active servos can help that.
***True. Velodyne is rated at around 1 percent for it's operating range up to 113dBA. McIntosh is rated at 0.005% from 20 to 20khz, at below rated power.***
Do you mean with an active servo setup? Velodyne may have patented a particular type of active servo but they definitely don't have the only active servo subs on the market and nobody holds a patent on the theory/practice of servo subs as a whole. I'm sure we'll see servo subs in the car market before long but it makes sense that they're only in home audio at the moment because OEM car sub manufacturers already know exactly what cabin and environment the sub is going into and can tune it for that. Home sub manufacturers have no idea the dimensions, layout, and other acoustical properties of your home theater area. Active servos can help that.
Percy
10-12-05, 02:32 PM
#28
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by Percy
Active servo subs have already existed for car audio. 1994 brought the prototype Velodyne subwoofer, full servo control, in a 13 inch aluminum sub. 1996 is when they had three models, a 15 inch, a 12 inch and a 10 inch. DF15sc, DF12sc and the DF10sc respectively. Both had the ability to be tuned and the only real stipulation was that the amp had to be flat in response out to 10hz. No filters, otherwise the sub wouldn't like the amp it was paired with. Car audio mag (british version) had tested one and it was reviewed as TOO good for car audio. Unfortunately the servo sub is not being made anymore for the car. I have one of these subs and won't give it up. Not too many purists out there anymore since many shop would rather sell higher quantity than quality to make a few bucks.
Percy
Percy
In the aftermarket the sub doesn't know what kinda car it's in. OEM it does - it's tuned for that cabin in particular, usually. Big advantage.: )
10-22-05, 02:15 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by mikeIS250
Hello all... I haven't test driven the IS yet but lookin forward to it on Oct. 17. Pricing is out tomorrow 
I am lookin at maybe a 6MT 250 or a 350. I dunno, but it all depends on test drive. However, regarding the 30 watts more in the GS: It takes 10 dB to make an increase of double the sound. 10 dB is also interchangeable with 10 times the power output. So, say there is 270 watts in the IS and the GS has 300 watts (abstract numbers I think... not sure what they are measured at.), then that is most deffinately a difference you cannot hear. Sound increases logarithmically in dB for power. Say for instance you are going from 10 Watts to 100 watts, that is an increase in double the sound.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you increase 30 watts from 270, you will not notice the difference in sound output...
Good first post ? lol...
I know that the ML system is amazing and all, and I am a big fan of Harman Int'l, but not having a Mark Levinson system in my future Lexus will not make a difference to me; it is not make or break. If I can't get it in the 250 then I will simply go aftermarket and put in the JL's I have in my 04' Corolla and then add a quality amplifier and DVD in dash system and subwoofer as well. There are a lot of high-quality products out there and the IS cabin is already acoustically tuned and a greatly insulated structure, so the cars interiors will not be a weak link in an aftermarket audio system for sure.
I am lookin at maybe a 6MT 250 or a 350. I dunno, but it all depends on test drive. However, regarding the 30 watts more in the GS: It takes 10 dB to make an increase of double the sound. 10 dB is also interchangeable with 10 times the power output. So, say there is 270 watts in the IS and the GS has 300 watts (abstract numbers I think... not sure what they are measured at.), then that is most deffinately a difference you cannot hear. Sound increases logarithmically in dB for power. Say for instance you are going from 10 Watts to 100 watts, that is an increase in double the sound.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you increase 30 watts from 270, you will not notice the difference in sound output...
Good first post ? lol...
I know that the ML system is amazing and all, and I am a big fan of Harman Int'l, but not having a Mark Levinson system in my future Lexus will not make a difference to me; it is not make or break. If I can't get it in the 250 then I will simply go aftermarket and put in the JL's I have in my 04' Corolla and then add a quality amplifier and DVD in dash system and subwoofer as well. There are a lot of high-quality products out there and the IS cabin is already acoustically tuned and a greatly insulated structure, so the cars interiors will not be a weak link in an aftermarket audio system for sure.
Do you think that a Flee Market Amp rated at 400 Watts will sound better or play louder than a 100 Watt JL Audio, Xtant, Powerclass PPI, or Audison Amps? No chance in hell they will even hold a candle to them.
You can not base a Sounds Syst***s Audio capabilities based only on power, which most people do. A lot of them can't even tell the difference until heard side by side.
Here is an example that you can check for yourself.
Go to a stereo shop that has an audio board with all the stereos hooked up, then leave all the amps and speakers, and change only the headunits. You will hear an enorous difference.
The processors make most of the sound difference.
ML being the maker of both systems, all things should be equal. The difference in Wattage might have to do with the car being smaller and not needing additional power to drive the speakers to make the same output, or it has less power because of a smaller sub. There are a lot of reasons for everything, and most of the reasons are usually not the obvious ones.