flipside909

Really? That's why i-VTEC came out after toyota introduced VVT-i and just recently Dual VVT-i, Honda not offering V8 engines...and now Honda's so far disappointing season in F1 compared to Toyota? Hmmmm.

ilitig8

To be honest BMW gets 100+ HP per liter in 2 current production engines, the 333hp 3.2L and the 500+ HP 5L so it would seem they have some secrets of their own.

Bottom line HP really comes down to revs and displacement, variable valve timing among other "tricks" are there mainly for streetability, milage and emissions. When it comes to specific output NA production engines Honda holds the record for 4s, BMW for 6s and Ferrari for 8s all going back 4 or more years for the specific engine. So I don't think you can say Toyota has any sort of edge in specific output.

I don't think you will really find much sand bagging under the new SAE protocal 306hp is most likely just that, where you get into a gray area is comparing "old" hp to "new" hp, though it is true the definition of one horsepower has not changed the new standards (when used) help prevent reverse sandbagging. Based on weight and the trap speeds I have seen 305-315 HP seems about "right" for the 350 but what is really important is what hits the ground and we will surely be seeing horsepower and torque traces as soon as customers get some dyno runs.

ilitig8

To be fair you can't compare Toyota directly on results to Honda in F1, Honda is technically only an engine supplier (this will likely change next year) and the chassis is the BAR 007. Also, few who KNOW F1 would argue that along with BMW and Ferrari, Honda has one of the top 3 engines on the grid. Plus Toyota engines are running in the EJ15/15B chassis and it doesn't make it a winner! I think it is safe to say that if one was starting a new high tech racing formula and assuming both were willing and had the choice of Toyota or Honda engines most teams would choose Honda. Honda is a hugely quirky company in a strangely mainstream way and it seems will go along its chosen way, which will keep Honda as a very strong brand but leave Acura as a second class citizen in the high line market.

dlomshek

BMW uses separate throttle bodies for each cylinder in the M3 and M5 engines (I6 and V10)
rather than one big throttle body feeding into a plenum chamber. This would give them an
edge in raw power per liter but it does cost a lot more.

ilitig8

Although multiple throttle bodies do indeed give a small edge in specific output it really is the fact that the engines rev to 8k and 8.25k that makes the biggest jump from 85 hp/L to 100 hp/L. The biggest benifit to idividual throttle bodies is throttle response you actually have to change your driving style in the manual box S54 engined M3 when the DBW throttle map is set to Sport mode, the response is almost beyond instantaneous, but this does come at a high price.

If the 3.5 in the 350 was tuned for a higher RPM power curve and revved to 8k it too would easily reach the "magic" 100 hp/L mark.

Gojirra99

No, I don't think the 3GS430's 300 hp is rated under new SAE in the U.S..
As you can see, according to lexus.jp, the SC430, which is rated under the new SAE in the U.S. at 288 hp, has exactly the same hp/torque curve as the 3GS430 as shown in the following graphs taken directly from lexus.jp :

spwolf

Amethysc - if you read carefully, my post was about 3.0l GR, not about GS430...

Gojirra99

Yes I know, but my point is why they would rate the GS430 & GS300 under different standards ?

spwolf

I dont think you follow F1 too much. Toyota is currently more involved in F1 and its engine is considered one of the best in business in both performance and reliability (same as last year). Aside from Honda press releases about "suzuka special" , Honda has been pretty dissapoining this season due to very low reliability which has not helped BAR team too much. In fact, poor reliability is one of the main reasons BAR's performance is so low this year. I doubt anyone would select Honda's engine instead of Toyota's.

Now, I understandn what you are saying that Honda is not full team but engine supplier but that also shows that their commitment to F1 is currently not as high as Toyota's.

ilitig8

You just gave me the laugh of the day, actually my month. I have followed F1 since the days of Jackie, Nicki, Jacky, Clay and Emmo. I just saw my 47th race in person this year at my 19th different track. I just got emails from two mechanics and one engineer after the race today (two of which touch a Toyota engine on a daily basis). Nope just a very casual F1 fan.

Toyota does have a good engine but it certainly is not near the class of the field. There are 5 engines on the grid that are at least as good but remember Toyota also makes the chassis and despite two solid drivers can't seem to get race results. Again the point was you can't compare Honda to Toyota via race results since Honda doesn't produce the chassis, further despite spending more than even Ferrari over the last few years Toyota just can't get results. As for a direct Honda vs Toyota engine discussion that one is hard BUT if you listen to the insiders almost universally they would rather have Honda than Toyo power and historically speaking Toyota is but a blip on the F1 scene, Honda engines however have been dynasty makers. As for Honda reliability I agree they (Sato) had very poor reliability last year BUT can you name the only race this year where Honda had race reliability issues? I'll help you out, it was Malaysia where Ant and JB parked their cars within one lap this is also the race where most everyone was having potential engine issues, I distinctly remember Dieter on race radio about lap 40 telling Jarno to turn down the revs otherwise there would be a "pyro" show. See that line about Honda's reliability not helping BAR this year just doesn't make sense, I would say you don't follow F1 that much but what do I know seeing as how I don't pay any attention to F1! BTW lets plan to meet up at Union Jack's next year (I am sure you will be at the USGP) and I will introduce you to some Toyota mechanics and engineers. I will also be at Montreal and Brazil next year but usually dont see them in Canada and the teams don't go out much in Brazil being such a casual fan I can't get to more than three races a year.

Catalunya '95, the genesis of the Toyota F1 effort, sorry Didier.

I know I took the sarcasm a little over the edge but not following F1 much is just not something anyone that knows me or my wife would say, jeez our honey moon was race weekend in Monaco, but honestly it was her choice since I don't follow F1 that much... sarcasm off.