spwolf

You guys will have to come to realize that
a. IS does not have to be and wont be cheap.
GS isnt cheap, RX isnt cheap and IS wont be cheap. It will be good, but not cheap.
b. top of the line IS will be more than base GS
Same or more features than top GS will make it more expensive than base GS BUT still some 4k-5k cheaper than top GS300. If you dont like it, dont buy top spec.
c. you wont be able to turn of VDIM.

p.s. Unless driving it on track, I dont see benefits of anyone turning of such advanced system as VDIM, and Toyota will not let you turn it off - safety is an priority for Toyota and there is no modern Toyota that you can turn off VSC in. As proven by mags, GS was plenty quick with VDIM through slalom tests and cornering, so performance wise it is on the top. It also feels much better than VSC ever did, so it is an no brainer.

If you have problem with VDIM turning on too much, then I suggest that you first check your tires and get the best tire on the market as #1 and by far the best performance upgrade you can get.

UDel

A car costing under $40,000.00 is not cheap. Starting at $27,900 is not cheap. Maybe with the ridiculous high pricing of many sports and luxury cars a car just under $40,000.00 may not be considered that expensive to some but most people do not spend anywhere near that on their vehicles. Nobody is saying the IS needs to be cheap but some of these figures seem too high when considering the size class of the vehicle, it is an entry level Lexus, and the last one never sold well nor was it that well received and it could be had for under $30,000.00. Most people in other parts of the world preferred the much less expensive 4 cylinder models and many felt the last IS would have done better if it was sold as a Toyota in the U.S since it did not really fit in with the Lexus image.

An S class Mercedes is a world car too and it is very large. If someone sits in back of the new IS and feels it is pretty cramped yet when they sit in a GS300 and it is much roomier with more trunk space people are going to say why not just get a base GS instead of paying more for a smaller and less prestigous car.

Most people who buy Lexus want a better built more reliable Japanese car over a sportier generally less reliable European car so that means that Acura and Infiniti will both be on their possibility list. Their competing sedans come in at below $30,000 to $35,000 with the highest optioned going close to 40. People are not going to pay a huge price over these very good competing cars when the last IS was not that highly regarded nor did it cost near $40,000.00

Lexus would be loosing out on a large market of just under $30,000.00 vehicles which most luxury companies have cars competing in. BMW, Mercedees, and Audi all have cars or are going to have cars that are priced under $30,000 and that market is hot. I believe there is a possible Lexus SUV that will be smaller then the RX that would need to compete in that price segment and it would be perfect for an entry IS250.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree about the VDIM stuff. I personally don't give those things much thought anyway. Lexus can price the IS350 at any price they want. You are right, if we don't like it we don't have to buy it. The problem I see is that a lot of people will take that option and buy something else if they do indeed price it too high. The MSRP on a base GS300 is $43,550. So, if you are right that a loaded IS350 will be higher than that, we are looking at something around $45K. A loaded GS300 is about $51,085, so you are right the IS350 will be about $5K lower than a loaded GS300, but that IMHO is too close. Surely many buyers who are paying $45K will seriously consider dropping another $5K for the GS300. They will get a better car, a real luxury car instead of an extry level car, more prestige, (I don't particularly care about this but it seems many who buy $40K+ cars do), better resale, and a larger car.

You then have to consider that price wise the IS350 will be competing with the mid level luxury cars like the Acura RL, GS300, M35, C320 and such. The RL at only about 2-3 thousand more has a good 300HP V6, and as loaded and luxurious as the IS will have become, the RL will still have it beat. The IS350 will have the performance edge, but like everyone keeps mentioning, the majority of Lexus buyers don't care about that.

Take a look at a loaded IS250 than which will be the majority of sales. Is that car really going to come out about $37K? That is more than the Acura TL.


Addressing the point about a car with this much technology can't be less than $45K. You may have a point, but really, what technology are we talking about? So many people here bashed the Acura RL for being priced near $49K MSRP. Take a look at all the technology that car has? For some reason here that car should have been priced in the low $40K range according to members here, but the IS can't be less than $45K? The only somewhat new technology the IS350 appears to have is the direct fuel injection and the VDIM. Everyting else really isn't new technology as most competitors have it.

I can swallow $42K for an excellent entry level luxury car like the IS350 appears to be. However, so many Club Lexus members made a big thing about what is expected of a car when you approach the $50K mark and everyone said not even the RL or M really meets that level. Why would the IS350 meet that level than? I understand you are saying it should be around $45K, but the out the door price will be about $48K when it is all said an done at the price.


To the part about why a loaded BMW 330i can be accepted at $44K but not the IS350? Well, most people here feel the BMW's are over priced right? Does Lexus really want to follow the over priced route? I would agree, at $44K the 3 series BMW is over priced, but so is a $45K IS350. keep in mind, we really have no idea how the IS350 will drive. It could be the best thing since sliced bread and I may change my point of view 180 degrees. But for now, the BMW 3 series is still the benchmark of a compact drivers car. I've owned one myself and I do agree, it does have a certain driving feel (Not to be mistaken with performance and handling). The steering feel is still one of the best. My SC400 is faster and probably hadles better than my old E36 BMW, but the BMW felt better to drive whereas my SC feels like a boat. I'll use the same argument that many long time CL members used against the RL. The IS350 is a great improvement, appears to have good specs, good interior, good technology, and basically a good over all package, but it is unproven in the market segment it is targeting and thus can't justify the price. Obviosuly we have no idea what the actual price really is going to be, but I'm just basing this off the price discussion we are having here.

iatacs19

Well once you cross north of $45k, it really becomes a stretch for most people to get the IS350.

For $47-50k you can get an Audi S4 (w/navi), that car has a v8 and AWD. It might not be as reliable as Lexus, but for the market the IS350 is trying to appeal to (enthusiat) the S4 is much more appealing.

I want the IS350 to max out at $41k TOPS, anything over that and I think it becomes much less appealing since I can get an S4 for ~$46k (no navi)

I know, not everyone likes Audis or S4s but it seems like a good comparision given the circumstances.

Ratman009

"Well once you cross north of $45k, it really becomes a stretch for most people to get the IS350.

For $47-50k you can get an Audi S4 (w/navi), that car has a v8 and AWD. It might not be as reliable as Lexus, but for the market the IS350 is trying to appeal to (enthusiat) the S4 is much more appealing.

I want the IS350 to max out at $41k TOPS, anything over that and I think it becomes much less appealing since I can get an S4 for ~$46k (no navi)

I know, not everyone likes Audis or S4s but it seems like a good comparision given the circumstances"


Like I said before, a nicely equipped 350 (levinson, sunroof, sport pack - should be standard, heated/cooled seats, HIDs) should come in around 37-38K sticker. Let's say 40K with Nav.

Oh yeah, and it needs to drive at least 90% as well as a 330i sport package and being that it is going to have at least 50 extra HP and 40+ extra lbs of torque over a 330i, it should lay down comparable performance numbers to a 330i stick.

If they can pull this off they'll be getting a nice pre-order deposit for me. Now if only they'd release official pricing before I get tired of waiting and order a 330i later this summer.

spwolf

I have an feeling that most people are not on the same page here.

- Is the only IS350 everyone is going to consider the most expensive one? Since most of the posts seem like it is "loaded or bust".

Lexus said it will change its one model practice for next IS, so you should be able to get IS350 with plenty of REAL options (and not one or two option packages). That means that you should be able to pick it up for anywhere above 35k to above 45k.


This is what we have been waiting for from Lexus for an loong, long time and I dont see why most of your are willing to accept 330i with base equipment and wont accept IS350 if it is not loaded.

GS300 doesnt even have all the equipment IS350 will have, so saving 5k over loaded GS300 seems like an good deal to me.

As to S4, base S4 w/o many options runs for 48k. Optioned to what mid-spec IS350 would be, S4 comes out to 55k.

You want loaded IS350 to be 15k less expensive than that? Thats just fantasies...

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Actually, mostly yes. I'm generally in the market for mid sized cars like the GS300/430, RL and such. Before the new IS came to light, I probably would have gotten either an RL, or waited a year or two and picked up a used 06 GS430. Honestly, the GS300 was never really on my short list. The only items I may not get is the navigation because so far only Acura offers navigation in my state (Hopefully Lexus will offer it too real soon), and the parking assist and laser cruise control. So, in a way it is not loaded, but if the price was right than I would get a fully loaded one because my own belief is the loaded ones hold a higher resale value. I'm the type that aways gets the sunroof option even if I never use it.



Actually, I wouldn't get anythig lower than a 330 and it would probably be comparably equiped as the IS350. Problem with BMW is there are so many different options. You can get adjustable seats, and you can get adjustable seats with adjustable sidesupports, and adjustable seats with adjustable lower cushion. I probaly wouldn't get the fully tweeked out lazy boy like adjustable seat, but it would be comparable to what's in the Lexus.


What options would the base GS300 actually be missing? As far as I can tell the main things would be VDIM (Which I as well as many pointed out most people will not really care about), the laser cruise and parking assists options (I mentioned those would be things I probably would opt out of on the IS350 unless the price was right), AUX audio input and MP3 playback (Don't need either since I don't use MP3s and I probably would opt for the Vaistech AUX interface anyway). Basically, I'm not arguing that the IS350 is a just car as that is the car I'd rather get over the GS simple because I like the looks a little better and I like the smooth interior vs the GSs sharp hard lined interior, but the GS is still a great car and a step above the IS, so if they got too close in price I and I feel many other potential IS350 buyers would end up opting for the GS. At least for me, I'm not trying to say price the IS real cheap. My opinion is to price the IS attractively. I'm just talking about a few thousand MSRP less than you suggest. People keep saying the IS250 will be the bulk of the sales. That is probably true, but if the loaded IS350 had an MSRP of say $40,995, that makes it much more attractive than if it were at $45,XXXK. I for one would walk into the show room knowing the worse case I'd get one just about $41K, or if I bargin hard enough I may actually get a great deal and walk out with one for under $40K. For me, the IS250 isn't even an option.

Basically it comes down to who Lexus is really targeting with the IS. IMHO, the IS250 will not bring in any BMW 3 series buyers. That is the job for the IS350. If the wrong price could sway someone like me (Owner of two Lexus cars, with two more within my immediate family) away from buying one I doubt they would bring in potential BMW 3 series, or other similar European sporty compact car buyers. It's amazing at how much $3-4K plays into car purchasing decisions.

I don't think we are really that far apart in our opinon on potential MSRPs. It really is just a few thousand.

PHML

iTrader: (33)

Yah...good points there.

Pete

spwolf

Ok, we are getting there - problem is that things like VDIM, laser cruise and park assist add 3k-4k to the price of the car, and are definetly not cheap.

So if you can live without laser cruise & park assist, you will probably be able to get it for less than 42k which should be quite nice pricing.

It just seems to me that there is some psychological barrier people are putting up here and it is a bit silly since everyone would be happy if there were not so many options and "loaded" price was then 42k.... It just seems silly.

Similary loaded 330i is 50k, and I dont think anyone should expect IS350 to be 10k cheaper with same options and ever more features (VDIM, backup camera). Even 5k is too much if you check other Lexus product pricing, so with 45k for completly optioned car, I think we should be fairly happy.

Xanadu350

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Maybe Lexus could get away with this on the first year of release but that price seems a bit too high to me even with all these options.

LexFather

Yes, they want reliability but also premium luxury, the brand, the dealer service, the quality etc. Its not just reliablity that sells a Lexus. Acura and Infintii HAVE to price the cars cheaper than the competiton as they are re-building and the cars do not command premium prices. The below 30k price for a LUXURY BRAND is an oxymoron and kills a luxury brand, luxury precense. Lexus has been smart to continue to move UPMARKET.'
1. The IS sold well its first 2 years and them tapered off. It simply was too radical to be a Lexus (sales-wise).
2. Lexus has the brand to command higher pricing. Every Lexus continues to go up in pricing and year after year, they sell better than ever. People believe in the product.
3. The IS DID NOT have 4-cylinder models. The IS 200 is a 6-cylinder. The Altezza had 4-cylinder models. The IS is an IS everywhere BUT Japan, where its the Altezza. 'BTW, the NEW BMW 3 starts at 30k http://www.bmwusa.com/ . Lexus does not want to participate in value/sales luxury. That destroys your luxury presence, just to chase sales. Lexus has never sold a 4-cylinder car.

To have cars under 30k, they more than likely have 4-cylinders. http://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,...ystyle=a4sedan
Or are a hatchback (c-class hatchback, A3).


Again, Lexus has continued to move and price upmarket and CONSUMERS continue to buy Lexus as they believe its the BEST. Not that its the cheapest or best value, like during Lexus inception and first few years of business.
A loaded RX 400h is 50k and they cannot build enough cars.
The LS was 35k back in 1990 and is double that loaded. Its the best selling in class.
The GS has jumped 5k in starting price, it is meeting sales expectations.
The SC/LX are limited production cars and every last one is sold at over 60k.
The GX is a 50k SUV that sells well.
The ES went from starting at 25k back in 1992 to starting at 32k for an ES 330.


So the IS will continue this trend to be priced more, have more features and sell like hotcakes.

LexFather

ITs about BRAND. People love to state Car magazine this and that, and value and loaded this and that but the INTANGIBLE is BRAND. People will pay PREMIUM MONEY for a PREMIUM BRAND. That is how Benz and BMW cost significantly more than competitors and sell well in most cases. People can see themselves and feel 50k+ for a BMW, Benz/, Lexus is well worth it.

At that price, BRAND becomes more of a factor. At the 30-40k range, its not an issue since its ENTRY level. So any brand is pretty credible at that price. Above that, that is what seperates the PREMIUM brands from Tier 2 and 3 brands.

spwolf

again, why exactly you think IS350 should be some 10k less than 3 series is beyond my understanding.

iatacs19

The prices going up for Lexus has to be calculated in contrast to all other cars and accounting for inflation, we want "real" dollars. Because you know that 25k in 1992 is not 25k in 2005. So 32k in 2005 in real dollars adjusted for inflation could very well be 25k in 1992.

I mean almost all cars go up in price after 1-2 years. So after about 10 years of course Lexus' cost more and have gone up in price but so has everything else we consume. I think we should need to adjust this "upmarket" trend you talk about for inflation and compare across brands (luxury and non-luxury) to see if Lexus has truly increased their prices as much as it "seems".

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

In this particular case it will be hard to determine since the IS350 is not exactly a new model, but something that has never been offered by Lexus before. That is a top engine model above the base which is the IS250. The IS250 could be a good gauge at how much Lexus prices went up compared to the last IS300 though. What we could do is take the price difference between the GS300 and GS430, but then again, it is not exactly comparable because the GS430 is a V8 vs its V6 GS300, while the IS250 and IS350 are both V6 versions, just with one having more power and more options.