IS350 price guessing revisited
05-03-05, 09:04 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Ratman009
Gotta chime in here. They can't possibly price an IS350 anywhere above about 42K or so fully loaded. To achieve their target goal (steal sales away from 330i's) lexus needs to offer a comparable (if not superior) vehicle at a lower price point. Forget about all of the bells and whistles that most people don't really care about right now. Adaptive cruise control and stuff like that won't be the norm for another 3-5 years. You could build a nicely equipped 330 for about 43-45K (sport,premium,cold weather, Idrive, auto). Americans are not going to buy a 42k lexus when they can buy a 43-44k BMW - we are just too image centric and frankly, BMW still has the "higher-end" image and status that go with the brand. Obviously, Lexus builds a "better" vehicle in the reliability and fit and finish category. Will a 350 touch the fantastic driving dynamics of the new E90? Possibly, and if the driveability of the current IS300 is any indication of what the 2nd gen models will potentially offer, I am very hopeful.
I'm sure someone will chime in, "but the 350 will have ~320HP while a 330 only has 255!" Frankly, HP numbers mean nothing, it's the actual performance generated by those numbers that counts. 330s have already run 5.6-5.7 sec runs with a stick and a "measely" 255HP (and not that much torque either). figure another .3-.4 for an auto. So we are looking at 6.0-6.2 for an auto. I really hope that Lexus is being highly conservative with their figures, as a 315-320HP car with 275+ Lbs of torque (even with an auto and not weighing all that much) should be able to run mid 5s if geared properly. Yeah, mid range power is probably more important to me than 0-60 times, but it is a good indication of power/gearing/drivetrain efficiency/traction.
In the vain hope that someone from Lexus PR/Marketing actually reads these types of forums, here's what I would like to see. Everyone stop talking about being WILLING to pay 46-48K for this car. It's not worth that much. Really. A nicely equipped 350 (sport pack - should be standard on this car anyway, heated/cooled seats, Levinson audio, Xenons, sunroof) should work out to about 37K-38K tops if Lexus is serious about eroding BMWs hold on this market. A similarly equipped 3 (metallic paint, heated seats, leather, sport pack, auto) is about 42K. The car needs to be about 4-5K less to steal the sales. If the 350 is only like 2-3K less than the E90, most American's are going to sell out to the Blue and White propeller logo. I know I will, and I'll get a fold down rear seat as well (critical in cars with trunks as small as these cars have-please Lexus, make one available - I'll give you ~$500 for it!).
Just my two cents.
I'm sure someone will chime in, "but the 350 will have ~320HP while a 330 only has 255!" Frankly, HP numbers mean nothing, it's the actual performance generated by those numbers that counts. 330s have already run 5.6-5.7 sec runs with a stick and a "measely" 255HP (and not that much torque either). figure another .3-.4 for an auto. So we are looking at 6.0-6.2 for an auto. I really hope that Lexus is being highly conservative with their figures, as a 315-320HP car with 275+ Lbs of torque (even with an auto and not weighing all that much) should be able to run mid 5s if geared properly. Yeah, mid range power is probably more important to me than 0-60 times, but it is a good indication of power/gearing/drivetrain efficiency/traction.
In the vain hope that someone from Lexus PR/Marketing actually reads these types of forums, here's what I would like to see. Everyone stop talking about being WILLING to pay 46-48K for this car. It's not worth that much. Really. A nicely equipped 350 (sport pack - should be standard on this car anyway, heated/cooled seats, Levinson audio, Xenons, sunroof) should work out to about 37K-38K tops if Lexus is serious about eroding BMWs hold on this market. A similarly equipped 3 (metallic paint, heated seats, leather, sport pack, auto) is about 42K. The car needs to be about 4-5K less to steal the sales. If the 350 is only like 2-3K less than the E90, most American's are going to sell out to the Blue and White propeller logo. I know I will, and I'll get a fold down rear seat as well (critical in cars with trunks as small as these cars have-please Lexus, make one available - I'll give you ~$500 for it!).
Just my two cents.
1. The LS 430 is 70k loaded and 55k to start. The origianl LS was 35k to start. The LS is the large luxo sales leader.
2. The SC 430 is a limited production 10k a year model and at 65k they sell every last one.
3. The 2GS430 started at 45k and the 3GS 430 starts at 51k and sales are great.
4. The RX 400h is 49k, higher than most anything else in class and 12k are pre-sold.
5. The ES 330 starts at 32k (no longer starting under 30k) and again, its the sales or 2nd in sales leader.
People now buy Lexus because of the product and now it has some image. Before, the majority of people probably bought Lexus because it offered the same features as the Germans for less. Since Lexus has now established itself, people buy for the product.
05-03-05, 11:47 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Ratman009
In the vain hope that someone from Lexus PR/Marketing actually reads these types of forums, here's what I would like to see. Everyone stop talking about being WILLING to pay 46-48K for this car. It's not worth that much. Really. A nicely equipped 350 (sport pack - should be standard on this car anyway, heated/cooled seats, Levinson audio, Xenons, sunroof) should work out to about 37K-38K tops if Lexus is serious about eroding BMWs hold on this market. A similarly equipped 3 (metallic paint, heated seats, leather, sport pack, auto) is about 42K. The car needs to be about 4-5K less to steal the sales. If the 350 is only like 2-3K less than the E90, most American's are going to sell out to the Blue and White propeller logo. I know I will, and I'll get a fold down rear seat as well (critical in cars with trunks as small as these cars have-please Lexus, make one available - I'll give you ~$500 for it!).
Just my two cents.
Considering what will be included in words of technology and equipments in a fully loaded IS350, let's be realistic, it could not be less than 40K.
05-08-05, 04:45 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by TED_FR
For the IS350 wich will be the IS line flagship, as it does not compete directly to a BMW 3 serie, they have much more flexibility.
Considering what will be included in words of technology and equipments in a fully loaded IS350, let's be realistic, it could not be less than 40K.
Considering what will be included in words of technology and equipments in a fully loaded IS350, let's be realistic, it could not be less than 40K.
i would think IS350 would directly go against 330i. i have no doubt about it. lexus would be , hopefully, smart enough to price their halo IS350 competitive enough to destroy 330i. they've been wanting to destroy 3 for the longest time.
05-13-05, 04:54 PM
#34
i still find it funny how people cant think outside of the box.
Simply put, fully loaded IS350 can NOT cost less than 45k. With all of the options and technology, there is absolutly no way for that to happen.
Does that mean that you have to get fully loaded IS350? No!!!
It is completly ridicilous to say how you can get nicely equipped BMW for 44k (with equipment lesser than base IS350) and that based on that, fully loaded IS350 should not be more than 42k.
How in the world can that make sense?
Maybe if it was Yugo 350, they would have to price it 10k less than BMW 3 series, but Lexus has proven, year after year that it has top brand value in US luxury market and they will not underprice their cars anymore. They are now simply building better cars, with top quality and fair price with lots of standard goodies.
BMW what? This is not Europe we are talking about.
Simply put, fully loaded IS350 can NOT cost less than 45k. With all of the options and technology, there is absolutly no way for that to happen.
Does that mean that you have to get fully loaded IS350? No!!!
It is completly ridicilous to say how you can get nicely equipped BMW for 44k (with equipment lesser than base IS350) and that based on that, fully loaded IS350 should not be more than 42k.
How in the world can that make sense?
Maybe if it was Yugo 350, they would have to price it 10k less than BMW 3 series, but Lexus has proven, year after year that it has top brand value in US luxury market and they will not underprice their cars anymore. They are now simply building better cars, with top quality and fair price with lots of standard goodies.
BMW what? This is not Europe we are talking about.
05-13-05, 05:07 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by spwolf
i still find it funny how people cant think outside of the box.
Simply put, fully loaded IS350 can NOT cost less than 45k. With all of the options and technology, there is absolutly no way for that to happen.
Does that mean that you have to get fully loaded IS350? No!!!
It is completly ridicilous to say how you can get nicely equipped BMW for 44k (with equipment lesser than base IS350) and that based on that, fully loaded IS350 should not be more than 42k.
How in the world can that make sense?
Maybe if it was Yugo 350, they would have to price it 10k less than BMW 3 series, but Lexus has proven, year after year that it has top brand value in US luxury market and they will not underprice their cars anymore. They are now simply building better cars, with top quality and fair price with lots of standard goodies.
BMW what? This is not Europe we are talking about.
Simply put, fully loaded IS350 can NOT cost less than 45k. With all of the options and technology, there is absolutly no way for that to happen.
Does that mean that you have to get fully loaded IS350? No!!!
It is completly ridicilous to say how you can get nicely equipped BMW for 44k (with equipment lesser than base IS350) and that based on that, fully loaded IS350 should not be more than 42k.
How in the world can that make sense?
Maybe if it was Yugo 350, they would have to price it 10k less than BMW 3 series, but Lexus has proven, year after year that it has top brand value in US luxury market and they will not underprice their cars anymore. They are now simply building better cars, with top quality and fair price with lots of standard goodies.
BMW what? This is not Europe we are talking about.
05-14-05, 01:15 AM
#36
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It wouldn't matter if they priced the IS350 at 35K, it won't affect the 3 series that much. The sales of the 3 series will happen without much regard with what anyone else in the segment does. The segment has two tiers - the low 30K area where the lesser models of the 3 series, C class, A4, IS, will play. Then there's the upper model range of these cars that will strech from the upper 30K to low 40K range. And somewhere in between you'll have the likes of TL, G35, CTS and others. The one with the most sales, the TL, has the most to lose.
The whole thing is rather short term since everyone in the segment will be playing the BMW game of changing models fairly often. So today's IS350 vs. 330 price debate will turn into next year's ISxxx vs. 335 debate.
The whole thing is rather short term since everyone in the segment will be playing the BMW game of changing models fairly often. So today's IS350 vs. 330 price debate will turn into next year's ISxxx vs. 335 debate.
05-14-05, 07:31 AM
#37
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Since this is all just speculation at this point -- I guess I'll jump in as well (only speaking to the U.S. market, as I have no idea how the brand is marketed elsewhere in the world).
I disagree with those posters who believe that Lexus will position (price-wise) the IS350 at or above the 330i and C320. While those of us on this board tend to favor the Lexus brand, and feel that the products produced by the brand are worthy of asking prices equal to or more than those put out there by MB and BMW, I believe that the marketers at Lexus understand that the general car buying population does not value Lexus as an equal to MB or BMW.
I believe this is borne out by the pricing on the new GS. Taking a look at the new GS430 (for example), if you go to lexus.com and build the new GS430, then compare it to similarly equipped E500 and 545i models (no sport packages, no metallic paint charges), the lexus comes out $5-7K cheaper. Not because the E or 5 series are any better, but because that's where the price point for the GS has to be in the U.S. for the car buying public to consider it over the MB or BMW (call it snob appeal, gotta-have-it factor, or whatever else you want). This pricing differences appear to continue across all the cars in the Lexus lineup (LS v. 7 v. S -- GX v. X5 4.4 v. ML500 -- LX v. G-Wag -- ES v. C Class).
Looking at the 330i, a 330i equipped with options that should be part of the IS350 package (auto, PP, CWP, Nav, Sat. Radio, PDC, sunshade) comes out to about $44.9K. Based on the current pricing structure, I would guess that the IS350 would come similarly equipped for around $41.5 - 42.5 (keeping the current pricing hierarchy in place-- more than a TL or Infiniti G, but less than the C320 or 330i).
On the other hand, this could be the time that Lexus decides to draw a line in the sand, and say from now on, our cars will be priced using the MB and BMW pricing structure-- but it may be a risky strategy to base pricing on actual value and not perceived value (I know that sounds a bit dim -- but like they say, sometimes perception is reality).
Anyway -- just fun to guess. We'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.
I disagree with those posters who believe that Lexus will position (price-wise) the IS350 at or above the 330i and C320. While those of us on this board tend to favor the Lexus brand, and feel that the products produced by the brand are worthy of asking prices equal to or more than those put out there by MB and BMW, I believe that the marketers at Lexus understand that the general car buying population does not value Lexus as an equal to MB or BMW.
I believe this is borne out by the pricing on the new GS. Taking a look at the new GS430 (for example), if you go to lexus.com and build the new GS430, then compare it to similarly equipped E500 and 545i models (no sport packages, no metallic paint charges), the lexus comes out $5-7K cheaper. Not because the E or 5 series are any better, but because that's where the price point for the GS has to be in the U.S. for the car buying public to consider it over the MB or BMW (call it snob appeal, gotta-have-it factor, or whatever else you want). This pricing differences appear to continue across all the cars in the Lexus lineup (LS v. 7 v. S -- GX v. X5 4.4 v. ML500 -- LX v. G-Wag -- ES v. C Class).
Looking at the 330i, a 330i equipped with options that should be part of the IS350 package (auto, PP, CWP, Nav, Sat. Radio, PDC, sunshade) comes out to about $44.9K. Based on the current pricing structure, I would guess that the IS350 would come similarly equipped for around $41.5 - 42.5 (keeping the current pricing hierarchy in place-- more than a TL or Infiniti G, but less than the C320 or 330i).
On the other hand, this could be the time that Lexus decides to draw a line in the sand, and say from now on, our cars will be priced using the MB and BMW pricing structure-- but it may be a risky strategy to base pricing on actual value and not perceived value (I know that sounds a bit dim -- but like they say, sometimes perception is reality).
Anyway -- just fun to guess. We'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.
05-14-05, 04:10 PM
#38
Originally Posted by biker
It wouldn't matter if they priced the IS350 at 35K, it won't affect the 3 series that much. The sales of the 3 series will happen without much regard with what anyone else in the segment does. The segment has two tiers - the low 30K area where the lesser models of the 3 series, C class, A4, IS, will play. Then there's the upper model range of these cars that will strech from the upper 30K to low 40K range. And somewhere in between you'll have the likes of TL, G35, CTS and others. The one with the most sales, the TL, has the most to lose.
The whole thing is rather short term since everyone in the segment will be playing the BMW game of changing models fairly often. So today's IS350 vs. 330 price debate will turn into next year's ISxxx vs. 335 debate.
The whole thing is rather short term since everyone in the segment will be playing the BMW game of changing models fairly often. So today's IS350 vs. 330 price debate will turn into next year's ISxxx vs. 335 debate.
05-14-05, 04:11 PM
#39
Originally Posted by DC52E55
i dont know about paying over 45K price tag for IS350. personally, i would much rather jump into stripped down ( with no options) S4 than paying 45k for the fully loaded Is350.
05-14-05, 04:38 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by spwolf
but who says you would have to be paying 45k for IS350? Base will probably be around 35-36k with a lot of equipment
Originally Posted by spwolf
Simply put, fully loaded IS350 can NOT cost less than 45k. With all of the options and technology, there is absolutly no way for that to happen.
you said fully loaded IS350 wouldnt cost less than 45K, not me
05-15-05, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by smitguy
i
On the other hand, this could be the time that Lexus decides to draw a line in the sand, and say from now on, our cars will be priced using the MB and BMW pricing structure-- but it may be a risky strategy to base pricing on actual value and not perceived value (I know that sounds a bit dim -- but like they say, sometimes perception is reality).
Anyway -- just fun to guess. We'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.
On the other hand, this could be the time that Lexus decides to draw a line in the sand, and say from now on, our cars will be priced using the MB and BMW pricing structure-- but it may be a risky strategy to base pricing on actual value and not perceived value (I know that sounds a bit dim -- but like they say, sometimes perception is reality).
Anyway -- just fun to guess. We'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.
Raising the price of the IS to 3 series and C class levels when trying to move up in a very competitive segment is very risky. Jumping from less than 1K/mo now to the expected 4K/mo with the new IS will be tough regardless of pricing.
05-15-05, 07:23 AM
#42
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If the new IS is really as good as it looks, I don't see why it can't sell 4k a month even with just the sedan model if the new GS, which is a less affordable model, can sell 3K+ a month in an equally competitive segment.
Keep in mind that when the current IS first came out, it can sell 2K per month in the first year or two with just one engine & no AWD, I think the new IS can do a lot better.
I don't think it needs to take away a lot of sales from any particular brand to reach or exceed it's goal. All it takes is for it to win over some potential buyers from each of the other competing brands, all of which will add up for it to become a big success.
Keep in mind that when the current IS first came out, it can sell 2K per month in the first year or two with just one engine & no AWD, I think the new IS can do a lot better.
I don't think it needs to take away a lot of sales from any particular brand to reach or exceed it's goal. All it takes is for it to win over some potential buyers from each of the other competing brands, all of which will add up for it to become a big success.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 05-15-05 at 02:06 PM.
05-15-05, 09:16 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by AmethySC
If the new IS is really as good as it looks, I don't see why it can't sell 4k a month even with just the sedan model if the new GS, which is a less affordable model, can sell 3K+ a month in an equally competitive segment.
Keep in mind that when the current IS first came out, it can sell 2K per month in the first year or two with just one engine, I think the new IS can do a lot better.
I don't think it needs to take away a lot of sales from any particularly brand to reach or exceed it's goal. All it takes is for it to win over some potential buyers from each of the other competing brands, all of which will add up for it to become a big success.
Keep in mind that when the current IS first came out, it can sell 2K per month in the first year or two with just one engine, I think the new IS can do a lot better.
I don't think it needs to take away a lot of sales from any particularly brand to reach or exceed it's goal. All it takes is for it to win over some potential buyers from each of the other competing brands, all of which will add up for it to become a big success.
One thing that might turn off some of the enthusiast in this segment is the intrusive VDIM - it's impact might be more pronounced in this segment than the GS. The more reviews come in the more it seems like VDIM is getting some bad association like BMW's iDrive.
05-15-05, 09:45 AM
#44
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The vast majority of real world car buyers are not hard-core performance enthusiasts that read these magazines or take their track oriented evaluations seriously, they're more concerned about which car is better suited for them for their everyday driving, so it's no surprise the reviews are not having a major impact.
The GS was rated higher than their competitors in some of them BTW, & even those that rated it lower than the M or RL said it didn't really lost, but it's just not the all-out performance car they're looking for, which is actually just opposite to the taste of the mainstream market. Many want a more balanced car for a sedan.
There's a huge difference between the VDIM & the i-drive issue.The VDIM to the mainstream buyer will not be an intrusion for 99% of their driving, if at all, & in fact will be a very valuable asset in extreme/emmergency situations, whereas with the i-drive, they have to deal with it much more frequently whenever they are in their cars.
They said the VDIM for the IS will be less intrusive, but I do agree they should make it possible to turn off the VDIM for the IS & the GS in the future though.
The GS was rated higher than their competitors in some of them BTW, & even those that rated it lower than the M or RL said it didn't really lost, but it's just not the all-out performance car they're looking for, which is actually just opposite to the taste of the mainstream market. Many want a more balanced car for a sedan.
There's a huge difference between the VDIM & the i-drive issue.The VDIM to the mainstream buyer will not be an intrusion for 99% of their driving, if at all, & in fact will be a very valuable asset in extreme/emmergency situations, whereas with the i-drive, they have to deal with it much more frequently whenever they are in their cars.
They said the VDIM for the IS will be less intrusive, but I do agree they should make it possible to turn off the VDIM for the IS & the GS in the future though.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 05-15-05 at 09:50 AM.
05-16-05, 02:10 AM
#45
The last time I look at this topic we were talking bout $42K fully loaded for the IS350. Now we are creeping up to $45K? Too me, it doesn't matter how much standard features the IS has, or how good the car really is. I thought $42K was already pushing it and $45K is just too high. It doesn't matter if Lexus can sell at that price, or if people will buy it. At $45K loaded, plus average tax, and DOC fee you are now looking at about $48K. People criticized the RL for being too little in the near $50K market. If we are paying that much for a loaded IS350 there are many other choices out there. The IS will still be a compact car and that is a lot of money to pay for a compact. I love the IS and hopefuly I can get an IS350 myself, but $45K MSRP is too high. At that price I'll just save a little longer and buy a GS430, or buy an RL. I really Hope Lexus doesn't charge a premium just because they can. Look at the profit margin for the Lexus cars right now? Some are around 6K built in profit between Invoice and MSRP. If they start jacking up the price even further it will kind of turn me off a bit. I'd like to pay a reasonable price where the company and sales staff can make a bit of moeny, but I don't like paying a high proice just because the company thinks I should. That is why I don't buy Mercedes in the first place. If Lexus follows their pricing plan I'd say that is a mistake.