IS F (2008-2014) Discussion topics related to the IS F model

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Old 01-28-15, 09:32 PM
  #31  
ISFpat
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Originally Posted by MK4Sup_isF
It's funny how you kept saying that my exhaust is pretty much straight pipe. If that is the case, people would just rather do straight pipe and not spending for Meisterschaft. Ask Johnny, he sold his Meisterschaft and now running straight pipe/ppe. He said they don't sound the same and misses the higher raspy tone of the Meisterschaft. That is why he is looking for another one.

I know it takes more than just headers, header helps a bunch though. Equal length smooth out the flows of exhaust mimicking the sound of a flat plane crank V8. Equal length helps all v engines sound better. Just like how a S6 V10 with equal length long tubes sounds more like a lambo V10. Same goes for a V12 NA Benz with equal length sounds more like a Zonda V12. Yes both motors came from the family. But that shows even a more direct sample of how much equal lenght long tube helps

I also know that the material in the exhaust packing has to do with the sound too. Just like how yours ISS exhaust with Magnaflow mufflers sounds like an aggressive American car. It's because those mufflers are packed for that kind of sound.
I'm not saying that equal length will make my car sound like a 458. I will bet that I'll like my exhaust sound better with equal length. That is why some people go through great length to custom spaghetti the headers of their V8 to get that desired even cylinder firing sequence to mimick the sound of a Flat Plane Crank
I like how you think your car isn't straight pipe.. it has a massive resonator to alter the sound.. but it basically is straight pipe. Remove your resonator and I'll guarantee your car will be just as loud.

You act like equal length is the end all to make our cars sound exotic.. you do know the S600 W220's V12 derived from the Pagani Zonda.. similar engines with equal length long tube = similar sound.

All our cars sound like muscle cars. ISS, Meisterschaft and Joe Z. Ask anyone who doesn't own an ISF to listen to our cars and all them will say our cars sounds like a loud Mustang.. yes even yours.

You can go ahead and pay the extra $2k+ to change the sound of your car but it won't get you what you want.. its just hopes and dreams just like making your car faster than what it already is.. just hopes and dreams.

If it was possible to sound like a "F1" or "exotic" car.. then someone would of done it already. To BMW's, V8 AMG's, to V8 american cars.. way before we even bought our cars.

Your logic =/= desires
Old 01-28-15, 10:41 PM
  #32  
MK4Sup_isF
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Originally Posted by ISFpat
I like how you think your car isn't straight pipe.. it has a massive resonator to alter the sound.. but it basically is straight pipe. Remove your resonator and I'll guarantee your car will be just as loud.

You act like equal length is the end all to make our cars sound exotic.. you do know the S600 W220's V12 derived from the Pagani Zonda.. similar engines with equal length long tube = similar sound.

All our cars sound like muscle cars. ISS, Meisterschaft and Joe Z. Ask anyone who doesn't own an ISF to listen to our cars and all them will say our cars sounds like a loud Mustang.. yes even yours.

You can go ahead and pay the extra $2k+ to change the sound of your car but it won't get you what you want.. its just hopes and dreams just like making your car faster than what it already is.. just hopes and dreams.

If it was possible to sound like a "F1" or "exotic" car.. then someone would of done it already. To BMW's, V8 AMG's, to V8 american cars.. way before we even bought our cars.

Your logic =/= desires
It's call 180 degree equal length headers. Headers from left and right side has to cross to create the R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L firing order. This will change a normal V8 into sound and behave like a Flat Plane Crank V8, ala Ferrari V8. It's a ton of work but it has been done countless of time.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...degree-headers

If removing my resonator and the car will just be as loud and sound the same, why wasn't Johnny's car with Meisterschaft axle back plus cat delete mid and headers sound similar? I have compared my car and his side by side on multiple occasion. He stated the different before I even mentioned it

Last edited by MK4Sup_isF; 01-28-15 at 10:51 PM.
Old 01-28-15, 10:53 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by MK4Sup_isF
It's call 180 degree equal length headers. Headers from left and right side has to cross to create the R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L firing order. This will change a normal V8 into sound and behave like a Flat Plane Crank V8, ala Ferrari V8. It's a ton of work but it has been done countless of time.
Corvette with 180 Degree Headers - YouTube
Ultima GTR First Engine Startup - YouTube
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...degree-headers

If removing my resonator and the car will just be as loud and sound the same, why wasn't Johnny's car with Meisterschaft axle back plus cat delete mid and headers sound similar? I have compared my car and his side by side on multiple occasion. He stated the different before I even mentioned it
I never said if you took off the resonator it will sound the same.. I said it will be just as loud.. where are you reading this?
Old 01-28-15, 11:00 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ISFpat
I never said if you took off the resonator it will sound the same.. I said it will be just as loud.. where are you reading this?
Okay, I didn't read that correctly. Resonator changes the sound when compared to 2nd cat delete Meistershaft from Johnny's car that's for sure.

Back to the topic of headers design don't change the sound of a car to make it "MORE exotic", I'm not talking sounding the same exact for two totally different motor sizes and head designs. However, I'm talking about 180 degree equal length headers can change a normal V8 into behaving like a flat crank V8. Which is what Ferrari was and is running for their V8s.
Old 01-29-15, 03:28 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by MK4Sup_isF
Okay, I didn't read that correctly. Resonator changes the sound when compared to 2nd cat delete Meistershaft from Johnny's car that's for sure.

Back to the topic of headers design don't change the sound of a car to make it "MORE exotic", I'm not talking sounding the same exact for two totally different motor sizes and head designs. However, I'm talking about 180 degree equal length headers can change a normal V8 into behaving like a flat crank V8. Which is what Ferrari was and is running for their V8s.
Idk anything bout equal length headers or special exhausts, but i know lolm3 novel headers & hks exhaust sounded hella exotic.. So with meister & equal length headers it could sound like a super car lol
Old 01-30-15, 09:17 AM
  #36  
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The primary difference in sound is the cylinder bore. There is nothing you can do to change this. All you can do is emphasize or deemphasize certain freguencies. The Corvette in the YouTube video still sounds like an American long stroke V-8 because it can't deny it's fundamental construction.

Why does Ferrari sound exotic? Because they build a very oversquare engine - big bore, short stroke - for lots of high rpm torque. Our engine, and the American V-8s are either square or slightly oversquare. They just don't make the same sound profile no matter how you slice it, so all you can do is tune for the frequencies you want to hear.

None of this has anything to do with power or powerband, which is what equal length tubing is all about.
Old 01-30-15, 10:09 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by lobuxracer
The primary difference in sound is the cylinder bore. There is nothing you can do to change this. All you can do is emphasize or deemphasize certain freguencies. The Corvette in the YouTube video still sounds like an American long stroke V-8 because it can't deny it's fundamental construction.

Why does Ferrari sound exotic? Because they build a very oversquare engine - big bore, short stroke - for lots of high rpm torque. Our engine, and the American V-8s are either square or slightly oversquare. They just don't make the same sound profile no matter how you slice it, so all you can do is tune for the frequencies you want to hear.

None of this has anything to do with power or powerband, which is what equal length tubing is all about.
Thank you for explaining it.. beyond the technical information, this all boils down to logic.

You can't make a "american sounding V8" sound like a Ferrari.

Some people wish and hope for waay too much.

Last edited by ISFpat; 01-30-15 at 11:49 AM.
Old 01-30-15, 11:18 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by lobuxracer
The primary difference in sound is the cylinder bore. There is nothing you can do to change this. All you can do is emphasize or deemphasize certain freguencies. The Corvette in the YouTube video still sounds like an American long stroke V-8 because it can't deny it's fundamental construction.

Why does Ferrari sound exotic? Because they build a very oversquare engine - big bore, short stroke - for lots of high rpm torque. Our engine, and the American V-8s are either square or slightly oversquare. They just don't make the same sound profile no matter how you slice it, so all you can do is tune for the frequencies you want to hear.

None of this has anything to do with power or powerband, which is what equal length tubing is all about.
I never said that it will sound exactly like a Ferrari. I even stated because of engine sizes (bore and stroke) and head designs, it won't be exactly the same. Will sound smoother with the 180 degree headers though. Most modern V8 has the "blurble" sound, square crank, because of two cylinders from each bank is firing at the same time. Where a flat plane crank fires one on each bank at a time, essentially 2 inline 4 firing together. Ferrari stated that the limit of a balanced flat plane crank is at their current 458 size. After that, the balance is out of whack. Ford is the first to able to get a 5.2 Flat plane crank balanced in their up and coming GT350. Their engineers stated that they had to do an extra 30 steps or something to balance it. Even went through great length to design the exhaust to keep the GT350 sounding closer to an American car sound. So the 180 degree headers smooth out the exhaust flow and changes the sounding characteristic of the exhaust into a "Large" displacement Flat Plane Crank. To me, that sounds awesome. A JDM F has done it. Too bad there is no video of how it sounds like online

BTW, Ford did the 180 degree headers on their GT40 Leman cars in the 60 to extract an extra edge
Here is an article explaining the 180 degree headers
http://www.burnsstainless.com/BundleofSnakes-2.aspx

Last edited by MK4Sup_isF; 01-30-15 at 11:22 AM.
Old 01-30-15, 04:53 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by MK4Sup_isF
I never said that it will sound exactly like a Ferrari. I even stated because of engine sizes (bore and stroke) and head designs, it won't be exactly the same. Will sound smoother with the 180 degree headers though. Most modern V8 has the "blurble" sound, square crank, because of two cylinders from each bank is firing at the same time. Where a flat plane crank fires one on each bank at a time, essentially 2 inline 4 firing together. Ferrari stated that the limit of a balanced flat plane crank is at their current 458 size. After that, the balance is out of whack. Ford is the first to able to get a 5.2 Flat plane crank balanced in their up and coming GT350. Their engineers stated that they had to do an extra 30 steps or something to balance it. Even went through great length to design the exhaust to keep the GT350 sounding closer to an American car sound. So the 180 degree headers smooth out the exhaust flow and changes the sounding characteristic of the exhaust into a "Large" displacement Flat Plane Crank. To me, that sounds awesome. A JDM F has done it. Too bad there is no video of how it sounds like online

BTW, Ford did the 180 degree headers on their GT40 Leman cars in the 60 to extract an extra edge
Here is an article explaining the 180 degree headers
http://www.burnsstainless.com/BundleofSnakes-2.aspx
Hello.. There are videos of that ISF . I posted videos a while ago. Its super loud. http://youtu.be/bmIT6adyVNk
I heard Lems titanium headers mated with a full titanium cat back in person and it doesnt sound anything like Novels exhaust system. Lems titanium full exhaust was more on the lines of American company exhaust V8 sound.
Old 01-30-15, 05:06 PM
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another.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha0KpNbpges
Old 02-02-15, 03:52 PM
  #41  
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I know to most people that looks really cool. But does it actually do anything for performance over the shorty headers so many of us have?
Old 02-02-15, 04:51 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by darbs242
I know to most people that looks really cool. But does it actually do anything for performance over the shorty headers so many of us have?
It's to get the desired "flat plane crank" sound. As you can see in this video, it does cream similar to a flat crank V8 type of engine. The thole theory of this is that you can gain some more power in the mid range because two cylinders from the same bank doesn't have to compete for the same header side at one time. Our engines like many none Ferrari are square crank, so 2 cylinders from the same bank fire at the same time. This in theory can create a log jam on smaller collector headers. Therefore our headers usually have larger collectors to lessen the effect, but in the expense of the exhaust velocity. By doing 180 degree headers, you basically send one of the cylinders' exhaust to the header's on the other side. This way it behaves just like a flat plane crank, ala 2 inline 4 firing simultaneously every single stroke. Smooth out the exhaust flow so there is no "burble" that associated with an "American" square crank V8.
Old 02-02-15, 05:05 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by MK4Sup_isF
IS-F ブリッピング・走行 - YouTube
It's to get the desired "flat plane crank" sound. As you can see in this video, it does cream similar to a flat crank V8 type of engine. The thole theory of this is that you can gain some more power in the mid range because two cylinders from the same bank doesn't have to compete for the same header side at one time. Our engines like many none Ferrari are square crank, so 2 cylinders from the same bank fire at the same time. This in theory can create a log jam on smaller collector headers. Therefore our headers usually have larger collectors to lessen the effect, but in the expense of the exhaust velocity. By doing 180 degree headers, you basically send one of the cylinders' exhaust to the header's on the other side. This way it behaves just like a flat plane crank, ala 2 inline 4 firing simultaneously every single stroke. Smooth out the exhaust flow so there is no "burble" that associated with an "American" square crank V8.
Its nice how passionate you are with trying to explain the "flat plane crank" sound on ISF's.. but the video you just posted has the nastiest sounding ISF ever. . If you want our cars to sound like that then..

Same ISF, different video:
Old 02-02-15, 05:13 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by ISFpat
Its nice how passionate you are with trying to explain the "flat plane crank" sound on ISF's.. but the video you just posted has the nastiest sounding ISF ever. . If you want our cars to sound like that then..

Same ISF, different video:
IS-F エンジン始動 - YouTube

lol sounding like a ricer
Old 02-02-15, 05:17 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ISFpat
Its nice how passionate you are with trying to explain the "flat plane crank" sound on ISF's.. but the video you just posted has the nastiest sounding ISF ever. . If you want our cars to sound like that then..

Same ISF, different video:
IS-F エンジン始動 - YouTube
Could be the crappy mic too, a crappy mic can make anything look bad. Plus the car wasn't even underload. If that doesn't sound like flat crank type of exhaust to you, I don't know how else to explain it. Did you read the link from a professional engineering perspective on the 180 degree headers? Infact, they did the design it for NASCAR before rule changed and banned the 180 degree design. They even stated that Ford did the same design for their Ford GT back in the 60s for Lemans.

Bundle of Snakes - 180 Degree Headers

GT40 Exhaust Headers

Many of you have seen the so-called “bundle-of-snakes” headers on the infamous Ford GT40s of the late sixties. Those beautiful works of art built by English craftsman on the Lola-designed chassis where two tubes from each bank of the V-8 are crossed over the engine to collect in 4-1 collectors with opposing tubes. What was the purpose of these tangled spaghetti-like devices? Most modern V-8s have what is known as 90-degree cranks (aka crucified cranks, bent cranks, cross-plane cranks) wherein the cylinder firing order is such that two cylinders on each bank fire consecutively as opposed to alternating banks. The purpose of the 90-degree crank is to minimize vibrations inherent to “flat-plane” cranks (the source is easily visualized in this video. Some racing and high performance engines including Ferraris use a flat-plane crank to optimize the intake and exhaust processes, accepting the additional vibrations.
GT40 at Le Mans
The problem is that for a conventional 4-1 exhaust header, the separation between two firing (or exhaust) impulses is 90 crank degrees in each collector versus 180 crank degrees for a flat crank engine. This gives the engine that inherent “American V-8” exhaust burble, but also causes a “crowded” condition in the collector when two exhaust pulses, separated by only 90 crank degrees are trying to exit through the collector. To accommodate this, the collector for a 90-degree crank motor must be larger than for an “all-other-things-being-equal” flat-crank motor, thereby losing some low and mid-range torque. The “bundle of snakes” design collects two tubes from each bank into a single 4-1 collector resulting in four evenly spaced exhaust pulses as in the flat-crank header design. A broad power band is inherent to the 180 degree header design due to the smaller collector size. This was a great idea, and I am sure contributed to the success of the GT40 “back-in-the-day.”



Often times I am asked to specify a 180 degree header design, usually for a replica GT40 or Pantera. Though I think it is a great “look” and if I was building a street GT40, would likely choose the design for historical purposes, the truth is, it is often not the best design from a performance standpoint. Why you ask? Engine speed. The V-8s that ran in the late sixties were relatively low rpm engines. Due to packaging, that is, fitting the collectors behind the engine, the shortest primary lengths usually possible is around 36”. This primary length is good for a motor with a useable rpm range of 4500-6000. And wouldn’t you know, a small-block “HiPo” engine of the day made around 300 hp at 6,000 rpm – perfect. Today, some GT40 replica builders fit NASCAR Sprint Cup-derived engines built by the likes of Roush Yates Engines that make power at 8000 rpm+, dictating a header length closer to 28” or shorter. Running a “bundle-of-snakes” header would result in a few ponies left on the dyno room floor.











As the adage goes, “there is more than one way to skin a cat.” Several years ago, Burns Stainless was working with a NASCAR Cup engine builder to develop a 180 degree header (pictures above) that would work with a stock car. The design shown in these pictures was developed that crossed the tubes under the engine. A special dry-sump oil pan was designed for the necessary clearance. Initial testing was promising, but as it goes in racing, rule changes made the header illegal for NASCAR. The last photo shows a header we built for Caldwell Development for a Reynard chassis Lemans Prototype powered by a restricted Dodge V-8. Because of the restrictor, the engine rpm was limited making it an ideal application for the 180 degree header layout.

Last edited by MK4Sup_isF; 02-02-15 at 05:21 PM.


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