GSF is Finally Here - ISF Coming?
01-10-15, 07:52 AM
#76
Have you ever been to an actual road course?? Every little bit counts. For me Since I'm a hard core track guy and own an M3 race car I want the widest power band available to me. On equally setup cars and drivers the GSF wouldn't fare well. Particularly on the straights. I would like to see a hot lap with sector data to quantify the differences between the cars. I bet the GSF will do well on a road course against the aforementioned cars, but fall short by about 2-3 seconds. The area under the curve for all the other cars is wider than the GSF. That spells disaster for me on the race track. I know this first hand.
Oh and P.S. I would pay 120k for a GSF that was a true M5 competitor. I could take it to a big power track like VIR or Road Atlanta or COTA and give them German boys a run for their money.
Oh and P.S. I would pay 120k for a GSF that was a true M5 competitor. I could take it to a big power track like VIR or Road Atlanta or COTA and give them German boys a run for their money.
Last edited by Bigcloud; 01-10-15 at 07:55 AM.
01-10-15, 08:40 AM
#77
BigCloud...
You're always holding it down for the track guys, but let's face it, less than 1% of people are going to take a $100K car, or even a $75K car loaded with luxury items, sound deadening, navigation, etc on the track more than maybe once a year. The vast, vast majority of buyers of any of the cars we've mentioned in this thread have no intentions on tracking these cars.
I just always chuckle a bit at the pages and pages of debates over which car is faster among people who may never drive their cars anywhere close to the limits. I would THINK we'd be focusing on which cars are the better car during the 90% of driving that most of us do... commuting here and there with the occasional spirited run mixed in, and not which car is faster around the 'Ring or VIR where most of us are not going to ever be driving these cars.
You're always holding it down for the track guys, but let's face it, less than 1% of people are going to take a $100K car, or even a $75K car loaded with luxury items, sound deadening, navigation, etc on the track more than maybe once a year. The vast, vast majority of buyers of any of the cars we've mentioned in this thread have no intentions on tracking these cars.
I just always chuckle a bit at the pages and pages of debates over which car is faster among people who may never drive their cars anywhere close to the limits. I would THINK we'd be focusing on which cars are the better car during the 90% of driving that most of us do... commuting here and there with the occasional spirited run mixed in, and not which car is faster around the 'Ring or VIR where most of us are not going to ever be driving these cars.
01-10-15, 08:48 AM
#78
BigCloud...
You're always holding it down for the track guys, but let's face it, less than 1% of people are going to take a $100K car, or even a $75K car loaded with luxury items, sound deadening, navigation, etc on the track more than maybe once a year. The vast, vast majority of buyers of any of the cars we've mentioned in this thread have no intentions on tracking these cars.
I just always chuckle a bit at the pages and pages of debates over which car is faster among people who may never drive their cars anywhere close to the limits. I would THINK we'd be focusing on which cars are the better car during the 90% of driving that most of us do... commuting here and there with the occasional spirited run mixed in, and not which car is faster around the 'Ring or VIR where most of us are not going to ever be driving these cars.
You're always holding it down for the track guys, but let's face it, less than 1% of people are going to take a $100K car, or even a $75K car loaded with luxury items, sound deadening, navigation, etc on the track more than maybe once a year. The vast, vast majority of buyers of any of the cars we've mentioned in this thread have no intentions on tracking these cars.
I just always chuckle a bit at the pages and pages of debates over which car is faster among people who may never drive their cars anywhere close to the limits. I would THINK we'd be focusing on which cars are the better car during the 90% of driving that most of us do... commuting here and there with the occasional spirited run mixed in, and not which car is faster around the 'Ring or VIR where most of us are not going to ever be driving these cars.
01-10-15, 09:00 AM
#79
I know, it's sad because cars with long histories of winning on the track get automatic cred that maybe they don't deserve. Your race prepped M3 is not going to perform the same as a similar year M3 street car. Enthusiasts will debate which car has a better 100-140mph pull, which car can pull the most Gs around a skid pad, and a bunch of other stats that are largely irrelevant to the type of driving that they will actually do. My point was that people are so hung up on the fact that the GSF is underpowered compared to its competition, as if 470hp is all of a sudden slow. If it was about buying the fastest car for any of us, this forum wouldn't exist. The ISF has never been the fastest car in its segment, yet here we are, and most of us are proud owners. If my main goal was winning the HP war, I would have bought the C63 or CTSV and modded it.
That all said, I do think Lexus kind of missed an opportunity with the GSF a.) by giving it the exact same power plant as the RCF, and b.) the design is too disjointed. The RCF came out and I was thinking, hmm... okay, but I really need the 4 door versatility, let's see what the GSF looks like. Now that the GSF is coming I'm thinking, hmm... okay, but I think I'll stick with my 2009 ISF, or maybe look to get a used '13 or '14 down the road if they don't decide to bring out another ISF in a few years.
That all said, I do think Lexus kind of missed an opportunity with the GSF a.) by giving it the exact same power plant as the RCF, and b.) the design is too disjointed. The RCF came out and I was thinking, hmm... okay, but I really need the 4 door versatility, let's see what the GSF looks like. Now that the GSF is coming I'm thinking, hmm... okay, but I think I'll stick with my 2009 ISF, or maybe look to get a used '13 or '14 down the road if they don't decide to bring out another ISF in a few years.
01-10-15, 10:42 AM
#80
Lexus Fanatic
I know, it's sad because cars with long histories of winning on the track get automatic cred that maybe they don't deserve. Your race prepped M3 is not going to perform the same as a similar year M3 street car. Enthusiasts will debate which car has a better 100-140mph pull, which car can pull the most Gs around a skid pad, and a bunch of other stats that are largely irrelevant to the type of driving that they will actually do. My point was that people are so hung up on the fact that the GSF is underpowered compared to its competition, as if 470hp is all of a sudden slow. If it was about buying the fastest car for any of us, this forum wouldn't exist. The ISF has never been the fastest car in its segment, yet here we are, and most of us are proud owners. If my main goal was winning the HP war, I would have bought the C63 or CTSV and modded it.
That all said, I do think Lexus kind of missed an opportunity with the GSF a.) by giving it the exact same power plant as the RCF, and b.) the design is too disjointed. The RCF came out and I was thinking, hmm... okay, but I really need the 4 door versatility, let's see what the GSF looks like. Now that the GSF is coming I'm thinking, hmm... okay, but I think I'll stick with my 2009 ISF, or maybe look to get a used '13 or '14 down the road if they don't decide to bring out another ISF in a few years.
That all said, I do think Lexus kind of missed an opportunity with the GSF a.) by giving it the exact same power plant as the RCF, and b.) the design is too disjointed. The RCF came out and I was thinking, hmm... okay, but I really need the 4 door versatility, let's see what the GSF looks like. Now that the GSF is coming I'm thinking, hmm... okay, but I think I'll stick with my 2009 ISF, or maybe look to get a used '13 or '14 down the road if they don't decide to bring out another ISF in a few years.
The new RCF is heavy but has the power over the M3 to help make up for the torque deficit, but it matches lap times and provides that visceral V8 growl. The GSF will simply not be able to keep up. The competition is all FI and have motors that deliver tire shredding torque at so much lower rpm. The GSF will have so much less at need to be revved so much higher to extract what little it has. The 200-400 LB weight advantage will help in every facet of performance , BUT NO WAY HELL YOU CAN MASK A HP AND TORQUE DEFICIT THAT COULD FILL THE GRAND CANYON.
I read last night that the new CTS-V has 640 HP !!!!!! That fact is enough to shut anyone up who say the German cars are all pricier and Its going to be pretty hard to not notice the 177 HP difference and forced induction to boot .I am eagerly waiting for the reviews and comparisons on the GSF. Fingers and toes crossed for Lexus, but the engineers must have known this was going to be a blood bath.
Like I said, this is upsetting because I know Lexus could have done better and I know the engineers know they could have done better. The GSF is more of a GS500 in my eyes. The car seems like a marketing mistake and a performance dud. Time will tell. I was a little tuff on the ISF when it was released because I want Lexus to beat , not meet, the competition. The GSF doesnt beat or meet its rivals.
Last edited by I8ABMR; 01-10-15 at 10:54 AM.
01-10-15, 11:50 AM
#81
Totally see your point but the ISF had more power than an M3 and 25% more torque. That torque is what makes the ISF more fun on the street than an M3 to me . Even if it was slower it was by a hair, most can live with that considering we dont have to be at the dealer all the time with issues. Now to be down in HP by 100-177 HP and down in torque by 100-150 lb/ft is a total disappointment . Its not even in the same ball park..........not even in the same universe . Performance guys know performance , and the GSF will lack the level of performance to be competitive in its class. My fear is that , again, Lexus' attempt to step into a new performance arena will be met with skepticism and poor reviews.
The new RCF is heavy but has the power over the M3 to help make up for the torque deficit, but it matches lap times and provides that visceral V8 growl. The GSF will simply not be able to keep up. The competition is all FI and have motors that deliver tire shredding torque at so much lower rpm. The GSF will have so much less at need to be revved so much higher to extract what little it has. The 200-400 LB weight advantage will help in every facet of performance , BUT NO WAY HELL YOU CAN MASK A HP AND TORQUE DEFICIT THAT COULD FILL THE GRAND CANYON. I read last night that the new CTS-V has 640 HP !!!!!! That fact is enough to shut anyone up who say the German cars are all pricier and Its going to be pretty hard to not notice the 177 HP difference and forced induction to boot .
I am eagerly waiting for the reviews and comparisons on the GSF. Fingers and toes crossed for Lexus, but the engineers must have known this was going to be a blood bath.
Like I said, this is upsetting because I know Lexus could have done better and I know the engineers know they could have done better. The GSF is more of a GS500 in my eyes. The car seems like a marketing mistake and a performance dud. Time will tell. I was a little tuff on the ISF when it was released because I want Lexus to beat , not meet, the competition. The GSF doesnt beat or meet its rivals.
The new RCF is heavy but has the power over the M3 to help make up for the torque deficit, but it matches lap times and provides that visceral V8 growl. The GSF will simply not be able to keep up. The competition is all FI and have motors that deliver tire shredding torque at so much lower rpm. The GSF will have so much less at need to be revved so much higher to extract what little it has. The 200-400 LB weight advantage will help in every facet of performance , BUT NO WAY HELL YOU CAN MASK A HP AND TORQUE DEFICIT THAT COULD FILL THE GRAND CANYON.
I read last night that the new CTS-V has 640 HP !!!!!! That fact is enough to shut anyone up who say the German cars are all pricier and Its going to be pretty hard to not notice the 177 HP difference and forced induction to boot .I am eagerly waiting for the reviews and comparisons on the GSF. Fingers and toes crossed for Lexus, but the engineers must have known this was going to be a blood bath.
Like I said, this is upsetting because I know Lexus could have done better and I know the engineers know they could have done better. The GSF is more of a GS500 in my eyes. The car seems like a marketing mistake and a performance dud. Time will tell. I was a little tuff on the ISF when it was released because I want Lexus to beat , not meet, the competition. The GSF doesnt beat or meet its rivals.
Second, my point is that yes, the GSF is underpowered when compared to the competition, which I guess would be the M5, RS7 and the E63. But the M5 is $100K with basic options, the E63 is $110K with options, and the RS7 is also $110K with options. The GSF will be $20K-$30K under those figures... so is it really a competitor? The only car that will be close on price is the CTSV, and yes, it is butt-kicking with 600+ horses, but that's been GM's thing since forever... massive HP numbers for budget pricing. The Upcoming C7 Z06 will be $100K fully optioned and will be a true supercar, taking on the top end products from Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini.
So really, the GSF is probably priced right for the horsepower figures it will be putting out. And most importantly, the buyers who are looking for a Japanese performance sedan probably are okay with the fact that they won't have the fastest 4 door sedan on the market. If the GSF's styling was better, I'd still want one over all the "competitors" out there, 470hp and all.
01-10-15, 12:27 PM
#82
Pole Position
lol, you guys crack me up. if power is the end all be all then by all means go buy the CTS-V or M5 or whatever. i know those cars will be PITA's to live with, as they have always been in the past. for my DD, i would much rather have 90% of the power of the competitors with bulletproof reliability and peace of mind. it's a damn fair trade off and something no other manufacturer can offer.
we all know the performance ethos of the Japanese is a lot different from their rivals, they are purists and create cars that fit that mold. they don't care about being the fastest, it's all about balance, so we knew they weren't going to win the power wars. regardless, as a day to day proposition for an enthusiast, i wouldn't want to be in anything besides my F. i've been through german hell and american **** build quality, im over it. i've owned really fast cars (750whp supra) too so i know what its like to be the highway king, there comes a point where that matters less and less. there will always be someone faster, i would rather have fun without the headaches and surprise expenses.
as someone said, this car will likely respond to IHE just as well as the IS-F and RC-F. at that point you'll have a large comfy sedan with well over 500hp and an epic noise just a twist of the ankle away, not to mention perfect reliability and build quality. i would much rather have that then worry about when my car will explode, parts will fall off, or ill get hit with a four figure repair bill. if you have the time and patience to deal with that, go for it. i've learned my lesson.
we all know the performance ethos of the Japanese is a lot different from their rivals, they are purists and create cars that fit that mold. they don't care about being the fastest, it's all about balance, so we knew they weren't going to win the power wars. regardless, as a day to day proposition for an enthusiast, i wouldn't want to be in anything besides my F. i've been through german hell and american **** build quality, im over it. i've owned really fast cars (750whp supra) too so i know what its like to be the highway king, there comes a point where that matters less and less. there will always be someone faster, i would rather have fun without the headaches and surprise expenses.
as someone said, this car will likely respond to IHE just as well as the IS-F and RC-F. at that point you'll have a large comfy sedan with well over 500hp and an epic noise just a twist of the ankle away, not to mention perfect reliability and build quality. i would much rather have that then worry about when my car will explode, parts will fall off, or ill get hit with a four figure repair bill. if you have the time and patience to deal with that, go for it. i've learned my lesson.
01-10-15, 01:32 PM
#83
all of these are easily 110-120k cars, the GSF wil be no where near this price. The CTS-V is the only one out of these that will be under 100k loaded. How many people out there can drop 120k on a car vs how many that can drop 80-85k which a GSF may cost. That is a huge price difference. Wonder how big the complaints would be if a GSF was 120k to compete with M5/E63/RS7
People like to see performance stats around real tracks by professionals, but lets face it, 99% of these guys that can afford these vehicles are not race car drivers by trade. Most are not even part time trackers. They don't care what numbers their car runs at Willow Springs, because even if their car can run better than the next competitor in a track environment, none of them wont have the ability to drive the car full tilt. Realistically, people only care what it runs 0-60 and the quarter mile. They are more fascinated with hp...bottom line, hp numbers sell.
This is all just too funny to me. I can understand the ISF and GSF, but when sedans are now approaching +550hp in the +$100k range, we are talking another league all together. It is a battle of who can make the highest performing 'sedan'. As if people are going to zoom around the track and around town with a car load of kids and groceries. Yah, I have the fastest 4 door on the market, and that makes me the fastest dad on my block. I'm sure my kids and wife will be real proud of that.
01-10-15, 10:26 PM
#84
Lexus Test Driver
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The press is saying that GS-F is an M3 competitor...That about sums it up. BTW it has no chance against the M3 either, but I digress...
I thought Lexus had real good momentum with the LFA and revised IS-F, and the 3IS is having a great run as a sports sedan. And then they come out with two duds in a row. I honestly have no idea what their vision or focus is. I guess they just want to keep selling F-sports, which is fine I suppose.
I'll come back to Lexus when they are serious about performance again. Here's hoping the 3IS IS-F will come to fruition and kick some butt. Otherwise the F-line is doing nothing for me.
I thought Lexus had real good momentum with the LFA and revised IS-F, and the 3IS is having a great run as a sports sedan. And then they come out with two duds in a row. I honestly have no idea what their vision or focus is. I guess they just want to keep selling F-sports, which is fine I suppose.
I'll come back to Lexus when they are serious about performance again. Here's hoping the 3IS IS-F will come to fruition and kick some butt. Otherwise the F-line is doing nothing for me.
01-10-15, 10:45 PM
#85
No idea what Lexus was thinking with this GS-F. I got to sit in a friend's RC-F when we were at Cars & Coffee on Saturday and it was really nice but I need a back seat and RC-F won't work with my child seat. I was so excited to see GS-F coming until now. Sure it looks ok but not bringing at least 550hp to the table makes zero sense. They basically have a car that will seat 4 adults like our IS-F, perform just like our IS-F but will cost probably $80k. I know Lexus doesn't seem to care about getting caught up in the horsepower wars but we are living in a time when every other manufacturer is pushing the limits on their cars. 640hp CTS-V that comes out this year is really looking tempting now.
Total disappointment...it's like our IS-F is replaced by a roomier, uglier, pricier GS-F, and there's no one to take on a M5, while the M3 can take on both the RCF and GS-F. All the while the LFA is beyond the reach of the most
The idea behind the F from lexus just got weaker
01-10-15, 10:55 PM
#86
When was the last time toyota made a TT motor? It seems to me like they have focused their forced induction R&D into superchargers ala Tundra, right? Much like you guys I'm pretty disappointed to hear they aren't going after M and AMG with this sedan. While I can't afford a $100k car, it would be nice 'heritage' to own (as is lead, destroy, and stand alone in) that class. I would have thought that with Lexus going directly after the M4, and missing, with the RCF they would have really beefed up for this challenge. Sigh, maybe the RX F will beat the M63 or SQ5 with that F motor. Oh, don't start a riot, I haven't heard anything, but to the point of 'this motor going into anything' hey, why not.
01-10-15, 11:03 PM
#87
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They needed to have 550 hp or so in this. Ye it's nice, roomy, and reliable. BUT, the competitors are making just too much power for this to not have even 500hp....
01-10-15, 11:24 PM
#88
Allright, i started this thread, maybe I should now voice an opinion. I will never own a blown engine - NEVER Just don't trust 'em and I don't like 'em. Sure my F is modified, but blown - Again NEVER. Naturally Aspirated for me. Lot's of reasons which I really won't go into here.
My desired engine configuration would be a 90⁰ V8, preferably with OH Cams and 32 valves. In this day and age, what choice does that leave me?
From where I sit - An RCF, a GSF, an Aston Martin Vantage or ???? Couple of Pushrod V8s out there, Camaro SS, Vette, Chevy SS, Mustang.
Mr. BMR listed some calculations. Now, I will list some.
JoeZ has said he expects (with our transmission, engine type and driveline) that we lose approximately 17% of HP at the wheels. Let's go with this.
My F, with intake, headers, exhaust (with cats) dynos @ 393RWHP. a stock ISF dynos somewhere near 345RWHP (our friend - a 17% loss). Using the 17% figure, my gross, at the flywheel should be 473HP.
The RCF/GSF should dyno @ 387RWHP (and I believe one has). So, if my numbers make any sense, if we do headers, intake and exhaust (with cats). and gain the same 48RWHP I did on my F, we should be looking at 524HP at the flywheel.
(387 + 48 = 435. 435/.83 = 524.
All you folks have been talking about 500 to 550HP, and there we have it.
Just my opinion, not so bad after all. When, and if, I get rid of my F, both the RCF and GSF will be on my list.
Lou
My desired engine configuration would be a 90⁰ V8, preferably with OH Cams and 32 valves. In this day and age, what choice does that leave me?
From where I sit - An RCF, a GSF, an Aston Martin Vantage or ???? Couple of Pushrod V8s out there, Camaro SS, Vette, Chevy SS, Mustang.
Mr. BMR listed some calculations. Now, I will list some.
JoeZ has said he expects (with our transmission, engine type and driveline) that we lose approximately 17% of HP at the wheels. Let's go with this.
My F, with intake, headers, exhaust (with cats) dynos @ 393RWHP. a stock ISF dynos somewhere near 345RWHP (our friend - a 17% loss). Using the 17% figure, my gross, at the flywheel should be 473HP.
The RCF/GSF should dyno @ 387RWHP (and I believe one has). So, if my numbers make any sense, if we do headers, intake and exhaust (with cats). and gain the same 48RWHP I did on my F, we should be looking at 524HP at the flywheel.
(387 + 48 = 435. 435/.83 = 524.
All you folks have been talking about 500 to 550HP, and there we have it.
Just my opinion, not so bad after all. When, and if, I get rid of my F, both the RCF and GSF will be on my list.
Lou
if anyone should know thats a big step up from the IS-F, it should be you. so whats to say that they havent improved their headers, as well?
01-11-15, 09:01 AM
#89
Pole Position
for all the naysayers who are worrying about not having enough power, here you go, and it's $20k less than a GS-F to boot lol
http://www.drivesrt.com/2015/charger-srt-hellcat/
http://www.drivesrt.com/2015/charger-srt-hellcat/