DCoolBeans

SLAY..... It's go time! Meet me after school in the parking lot!

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Why is it so difficult to figure out the gutted headers are demonstrating they work? Not on a dyno, because nobody really cares about charts. We care about crossing the finish line first. What else could be more important?

I've seen plenty of cars dyno well and lose races to cars that did not dyno well. That's why I don't care about dynos. Better dyno != faster car.

It's the same thing with chassis mods and people saying "this is better" because they got in and drove with the parts installed and it felt better to them. For sure if I dropped a few large on shocks and springs, I'd damned sure want to say its better, but the reality is, better for what? What is your success criteria? For me, it's a faster lap, or the same lap a whole lot less scary. Most of the reviews here of shocks, springs, swaybars, and other chassis tuning tools never get on a track, much less have a watch timing for a measure of real improvement (or measuring utter failure.) I've bought a lot of aftermarket stuff in my time. Just like it says in my sig, I've been very disappointed with the measured performance of those aftermarket pieces, and I'm not talking some little tuner shop, I'm talking K&N, RPS, Tokico and a host of others in the last 35 years of modifying engines for performance.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

We are not evaluating drivers here, this is a header gain thread. That's why this thread was created and dyno runs done. It was an interesting experiment but one trying to prove a pre determined conclusion that OEM was just as good when dynos proved otherwise.

Argue too much flow all you want, the fact that there were huge gains especially in top end on aftermarket headers and NOT the OEM headers, mean the stock headers are garbage flow wise. Stock headers are robbing the car through pumping losses - not enough flow. Sure its a quick and dirty mod that does have some gains, but its still a half measure mod. Still have to wire O2 simulators, the car is still held back in mid and top ends, primary cats destroyed, and you cant return to stock unless you find someone elses manifolds and still have to do a header installation in the end to correct it. This isnt not that far off from doing it the right way. Youre not saving much time or money gutting the cats. Yea headers cost $1300 or so, but could be resold for $1000. How much is it to reaquire a new set of used OEM headers, $200-300? Practically coming out even in the end but losing out on the enjoyment of real headers. I hope that cat dust was recycled, thats money in precious metals.

Just like the OEM headers? Far from equal length. Yet it was claimed the stock headers are just as good as aftermarket. Stock headers are not equal length and not properly sized hence huge gains when going aftermarket.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

No one makes equal length headers for the F. By what measure do you think the OEM headers are the wrong diameter? If they were not somewhere close, the stock rated power wouldn't be what it is. You're missing the whole point of the thread anyway. The point is, we've seen real world performance of gutted headers and despite the apparent differences in the pretty graphs people hold so near and dear, the fact remains, we've seen a gutted OEM header beat a car with aftermarket headers. BEAT, not come close, not lose, BEAT.

So I really couldn't care less what the dyno charts look like. If the gutted OEM header is doing a better job at winning races, why spend the money on headers?

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away, an old engine tuner told me the story of a Formula Ford engine he built. All his competitors were making 105-106 hp from their engines. He struggled for weeks on end but could only get 99 hp out of his. They went to the track, and won all the races the first weekend of the season. So, the numbers don't tell the story. The performance of the car tells everything.

DCoolBeans

LOL those oem "garbage" flow headers had me running. I was only up on him by 3 ft @ 160 plus mph

You money math is all wrong man. You forgot a huge thing called "install cost" which ranges from 550-1000 bucks.....So thats 1100-2000 cheerios just on install & removal

MK4Sup_isF

iTrader: (10)

Haha seriously! People speak out of their behinds sometimes. I have Sikky headers but by no mean I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. One positive thing came from it was that I discovered that my stock headers welding had broken off at one of the flange to the head. So it was good for me to find that during the install. I can't wait to get my hands on equal length headers though. That's my next mod

flowrider

iTrader: (9)

Lance, the more you talk and beat your chest, the more your supposed expertise and knowledge dims in my eyes. You've actually seen a gutted cat car beat one in a sanctioned race with headers, or you've read about an impromptu street race on these forums? How many times? How repeatable? How many samples? It's what's called anecdotal, and IMHO is pure BS. The dynos in this thread prove it. I've stated my position on dynos on these forums, and in your usual manner you've tried to discredit everything I've said and you have postulated absolutely nothing that makes any sense. You have fermented arguments. I have evidence to prove what I've been saying, you have bupkis.

Lou

MK4Sup_isF

iTrader: (10)

Lou, you are so stuck in your own ways that anything doesn't match up with your belief is wrong. Same way how you came out and said my 245/40/19 is 1" larger than stock size. I will admit when I'm giving incorrect informations. I own a 6spd Supra that made 796 whp on a Dynapack, I know sure as hell on a Mustang or Dynojet, I won't make near that in the same boost setup. I can also tell you that runs made during 95+ F degrees were about 20+whp lower than runs that I made during 55 F degrees at night during with the same exact dyno. I used to have access to my friend's private garage where I got to dyno tuned my Supra quite a bit. So I do have my own bit of first hand accounts on dyno runs from the same machine. Dyno numbers are not be all and ends all. They are just a value to loosely tune and gauge your gain after tuning adjustment, from the same dyno. I have a couple of videos of my Supra pulled 790+whp and a dyno sheet if anyone cares

flowrider

iTrader: (9)

^^^^^Hey guy

I wasn't responding to you in my post, and I don't want to get into an argument with all you guys that think this get getto mod will produce the same results as real headers

As far as the tires, I was saying that your 245/40/19s are 1" bigger in OD than the replacement size (245/35/19) a lot of us are going with. That's .9" (25.8" vs 26.7") as far as being bigger in OD than stock, the number is .6".

Dyno numbers are not all "ends all" but are a damn good predictor of a vehicle's performance. That is why so many people use them. Dynojet Dynamometers are the brand that has become the defacto standard on this forum. and at least five ISFs from all parts of the country have produced similar results using them. Fulll Bolt on WHP on a Dynojet is somewhere in the 400 vicinity. It has proven to be repeatable again and again. Why should an impromptu street race be believed and proven dyno numbers not.

Sorry, but I just don't get it

This is an open forum and we are all entitled to our own opinions. We are also free to share our ideas and our experiences. I've shared mine, I believe I've proven my point, you and Lance may not agree with me, because I certainly don't agree with you.

You think I'm wrong, fine that's your opinion!

Lou

MK4Sup_isF

iTrader: (10)

I didn't say anything about gutted cats makes more power. All I'm saying is that you can't just rely on a dyno sheet to say what car makes more power, they all have their ranges of variable that make number high or low. Such as temperature different. That's all I'm saying. The best solution would be to strap two cars with similar mileage and year made to the same dyno the same day. Even then, not all motors produce the same exact HP stock either. Just a rough estimate. Even if two F only raced a few times, it's more direct comparison than different dyno runs with different variables come into play. Like I said, my Supra made 25whp when it was a colder 55-60 degree at night on the same exact dyno.

On the tires topic, so why are you comparing my size to people that went thinner than stock? Btw most that went smaller on 245/35 and 275/30, .3 and .4 smaller. That's calling me out for going smaller than someone that decided to go much thinner than stock. What makes their thinner than stock more superior than my thicker than stock? Are they better engineers than Toyota people? Lexus's suspension is designed for stock size rolling diameter so unless you can show me how slightly increasing or decreasing sidewall effect the car, then talk about my bad choice all you want. I'll take the criticism. If anything, smaller sizes decrease max weight load per tire.

Also, you stated that "properly designed" headers. I asked how so? Please show me the R&D of the "proper design". I maybe only 32 years old but so far my experience with cars and exhaust flow is that equal length is the proper design, this holds true for even turbo exhaust manifolds

4everkidd

iTrader: (2)

This is hilarious... Grown men fighting on a forum. Lets get back on topic guys; don't get re-pissed off thinking about an ancient thread like a girlfriend bringing up the memory reel in a fight.

DCoolBeans and Slay, any chance you fellas can find a GoPro and strip of land in Mexico to do a few repeatable runs?

MK4Sup_isF

iTrader: (10)

Yep the more evidences (good or bad) we get, the less the arguments. I have Sikky headers and I'm interested in how gutted cats perform.

caymandive

iTrader: (2)

Get a couple cars together with both headers and gutted cat setups and have a dyno meet. A race on the street won't give difinitive results as weight, tires, driver skill are all at play.

Cronic

iTrader: (1)

Ya, especially roll racing..... The most inconsistent form of racing. Even more so with zero timing equipment/trap indicator.

The car could be 4ft ahead at 160 and be moving 2-3mph faster.. We have no clue.

I think it is even more hilarious the only race we have to go off of, the two people involved can't even agree who won..haha

Bottom line is even if both cars are dead even on weight, driver, tires, etc. In a roll race, with everything equal, the potential 15whp(or whatever difference) is not going to appear like very much. You can't expect two exact cars, one making a small amount of power more, to run away from the other car. We are not talking a 50,75, or 100whp difference.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

When someone drives down the street with the hood open and a fan blowing into the engine bay, I'll accept a dyno test as fair. Until then, trapspeed rules all.

You guys have no idea how hard the OEMs work to produce consistent dyno numbers. None. We don't have even half the necessary instrumentation to produce a fair, head to head dyno at any aftermarket shop. That's just part of why I think dynos are a poor comparison at best from car to car.

Lou, you're free to think whatever you want about me, my experience, and what I know. It's the Internet, and honestly, I don't care what you think about me.

I've spent a whole lot of time in the trenches and bought a lot of junk that did not work as advertised. No one here has posted anything about the most valuable work to be done on the 2UR, and everyone thinking every IS-F rolling off the assembly line makes exactly the same power is smoking something extra special. Sure, lots of you guys have spent a bunch of money on mods, and sure you want to believe you did the "right thing" in doing what you did, but take off the blinders, look at the results, and decide for yourself. Pretty simple, eh?