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Raybestos Rotors + Project Mu NS400 Brake pads Review
11-19-13, 07:21 PM
#16
Pole Position
Thread Starter
I may have been exaggerating calling them terrible but they don't match OEM that's for sure. I drive the car pretty hard which could be my problem. I guess my expectations were too high for the mu pads.
Last edited by pc1990; 11-20-13 at 09:25 AM.
11-19-13, 08:44 PM
#17
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
You made a mistake taking it easy on them. Bedding needs to be done immediately after installation.
11-19-13, 09:55 PM
#19
Completely different vehicle here but embedding those brake pads are one of the biggest foundations to a proper brake pad set up.
This is coming from a 94 Toyota Pickup that has Duralast rotors and Duralast Gold pads on the stock single piston sliding caliper setup from 05 that's lasted to Fall 2013 with over 70k miles of abusive, severe driving. Sure they may say I have small brakes with some decent pads, but having these brakes embed properly with good braking technique helped me last thing long.
I bought new rotors and got my pads replaced under warranty and embedded them correctly.
For street pads, I did ten 60mph to 10mph braking runs, consecutively. What you should find is that by your 5th or 6th braking run (probably 4th or 5th, I'm guessing due to the IS-F's much heavier weight than my dinky Hilux), you should feel brake fade. Brake fade? Full brake pedal depress while the pad is trying to grab the rotor, sweating out all the oils and smoking them up. After that, I continued cruising down the highway, minimizing any need to use the brakes as they cooled down.
After i stopped, I saw a slight hint of light light blue and a light grey layer on my rotor, designating good pad material transfer.
I've drove spiritedly, wildly, aggressive, passively, autocrossed, and mountain race on my little brakes with proper embed, and these brakes kept me in place. (275/35/18's for tires, also. and Nitto NT01's for autocross).
I can only imagine how this will help your application also. Proper embed produces correct wear and reduces squealing to a certain degree. I've had many many people gave bad reviews about EBC brake pads, and the ones that are bad are usually the ones that don't understand the concepts of brake embed and fluid flushing. Knowledge is power, so does it help you utilize your parts well.
That's my little tidbit of knowledge I can leave aside here, even if I don't own an IS-F with beautiful brakes, haha.
:edit: Now that I've gotten to the last few posts that I didn't read, I'm glad I could give you a little read up on a brake embed.
Also, upon rotor and pad install, I used that brake cleaner spray and got all the manufacturer preserve oil off the rotor and the pad surface, just in case there was any kind of machinery oil on there. The first few 20mph stop lights and stop signs were a little iffy, but once I hit that highway/ open stretch of road, those brakes were game on. Keep it in a straight line as possible, to enable the brakes to embed evenly and prevent vehicle sensors from interfering with brake pressure application.
This is coming from a 94 Toyota Pickup that has Duralast rotors and Duralast Gold pads on the stock single piston sliding caliper setup from 05 that's lasted to Fall 2013 with over 70k miles of abusive, severe driving. Sure they may say I have small brakes with some decent pads, but having these brakes embed properly with good braking technique helped me last thing long.
I bought new rotors and got my pads replaced under warranty and embedded them correctly.
For street pads, I did ten 60mph to 10mph braking runs, consecutively. What you should find is that by your 5th or 6th braking run (probably 4th or 5th, I'm guessing due to the IS-F's much heavier weight than my dinky Hilux), you should feel brake fade. Brake fade? Full brake pedal depress while the pad is trying to grab the rotor, sweating out all the oils and smoking them up. After that, I continued cruising down the highway, minimizing any need to use the brakes as they cooled down.
After i stopped, I saw a slight hint of light light blue and a light grey layer on my rotor, designating good pad material transfer.
I've drove spiritedly, wildly, aggressive, passively, autocrossed, and mountain race on my little brakes with proper embed, and these brakes kept me in place. (275/35/18's for tires, also. and Nitto NT01's for autocross).
I can only imagine how this will help your application also. Proper embed produces correct wear and reduces squealing to a certain degree. I've had many many people gave bad reviews about EBC brake pads, and the ones that are bad are usually the ones that don't understand the concepts of brake embed and fluid flushing. Knowledge is power, so does it help you utilize your parts well.
That's my little tidbit of knowledge I can leave aside here, even if I don't own an IS-F with beautiful brakes, haha.
:edit: Now that I've gotten to the last few posts that I didn't read, I'm glad I could give you a little read up on a brake embed.
Also, upon rotor and pad install, I used that brake cleaner spray and got all the manufacturer preserve oil off the rotor and the pad surface, just in case there was any kind of machinery oil on there. The first few 20mph stop lights and stop signs were a little iffy, but once I hit that highway/ open stretch of road, those brakes were game on. Keep it in a straight line as possible, to enable the brakes to embed evenly and prevent vehicle sensors from interfering with brake pressure application.
11-19-13, 10:47 PM
#20
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
^^^This. Could not be more correct. Brakes don't care about anything but transfer. Hilux or IS-F, it makes no difference.
11-20-13, 09:17 AM
#21
Pole Position
Thread Starter
So any way to fix this or are the pads a waste now? I would think there's a way to resolve this without getting new pads. I've drove with them about three weeks now.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the replies from all of you guys. I feel like an idiot but at least now I know
11-20-13, 09:22 AM
#22
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Completely different vehicle here but embedding those brake pads are one of the biggest foundations to a proper brake pad set up.
This is coming from a 94 Toyota Pickup that has Duralast rotors and Duralast Gold pads on the stock single piston sliding caliper setup from 05 that's lasted to Fall 2013 with over 70k miles of abusive, severe driving. Sure they may say I have small brakes with some decent pads, but having these brakes embed properly with good braking technique helped me last thing long.
I bought new rotors and got my pads replaced under warranty and embedded them correctly.
For street pads, I did ten 60mph to 10mph braking runs, consecutively. What you should find is that by your 5th or 6th braking run (probably 4th or 5th, I'm guessing due to the IS-F's much heavier weight than my dinky Hilux), you should feel brake fade. Brake fade? Full brake pedal depress while the pad is trying to grab the rotor, sweating out all the oils and smoking them up. After that, I continued cruising down the highway, minimizing any need to use the brakes as they cooled down.
After i stopped, I saw a slight hint of light light blue and a light grey layer on my rotor, designating good pad material transfer.
I've drove spiritedly, wildly, aggressive, passively, autocrossed, and mountain race on my little brakes with proper embed, and these brakes kept me in place. (275/35/18's for tires, also. and Nitto NT01's for autocross).
I can only imagine how this will help your application also. Proper embed produces correct wear and reduces squealing to a certain degree. I've had many many people gave bad reviews about EBC brake pads, and the ones that are bad are usually the ones that don't understand the concepts of brake embed and fluid flushing. Knowledge is power, so does it help you utilize your parts well.
That's my little tidbit of knowledge I can leave aside here, even if I don't own an IS-F with beautiful brakes, haha.
:edit: Now that I've gotten to the last few posts that I didn't read, I'm glad I could give you a little read up on a brake embed.
Also, upon rotor and pad install, I used that brake cleaner spray and got all the manufacturer preserve oil off the rotor and the pad surface, just in case there was any kind of machinery oil on there. The first few 20mph stop lights and stop signs were a little iffy, but once I hit that highway/ open stretch of road, those brakes were game on. Keep it in a straight line as possible, to enable the brakes to embed evenly and prevent vehicle sensors from interfering with brake pressure application.
This is coming from a 94 Toyota Pickup that has Duralast rotors and Duralast Gold pads on the stock single piston sliding caliper setup from 05 that's lasted to Fall 2013 with over 70k miles of abusive, severe driving. Sure they may say I have small brakes with some decent pads, but having these brakes embed properly with good braking technique helped me last thing long.
I bought new rotors and got my pads replaced under warranty and embedded them correctly.
For street pads, I did ten 60mph to 10mph braking runs, consecutively. What you should find is that by your 5th or 6th braking run (probably 4th or 5th, I'm guessing due to the IS-F's much heavier weight than my dinky Hilux), you should feel brake fade. Brake fade? Full brake pedal depress while the pad is trying to grab the rotor, sweating out all the oils and smoking them up. After that, I continued cruising down the highway, minimizing any need to use the brakes as they cooled down.
After i stopped, I saw a slight hint of light light blue and a light grey layer on my rotor, designating good pad material transfer.
I've drove spiritedly, wildly, aggressive, passively, autocrossed, and mountain race on my little brakes with proper embed, and these brakes kept me in place. (275/35/18's for tires, also. and Nitto NT01's for autocross).
I can only imagine how this will help your application also. Proper embed produces correct wear and reduces squealing to a certain degree. I've had many many people gave bad reviews about EBC brake pads, and the ones that are bad are usually the ones that don't understand the concepts of brake embed and fluid flushing. Knowledge is power, so does it help you utilize your parts well.
That's my little tidbit of knowledge I can leave aside here, even if I don't own an IS-F with beautiful brakes, haha.
:edit: Now that I've gotten to the last few posts that I didn't read, I'm glad I could give you a little read up on a brake embed.
Also, upon rotor and pad install, I used that brake cleaner spray and got all the manufacturer preserve oil off the rotor and the pad surface, just in case there was any kind of machinery oil on there. The first few 20mph stop lights and stop signs were a little iffy, but once I hit that highway/ open stretch of road, those brakes were game on. Keep it in a straight line as possible, to enable the brakes to embed evenly and prevent vehicle sensors from interfering with brake pressure application.
You learn something new everyday and any advice is always welcome. I'm sure it'll help many others out as well....Sweet truck btw!
11-20-13, 09:27 AM
#23
Lexus Champion
If reusing the oem rotors then 120 grit applied in a light circular, non directional, application should be fine for scuffing. Use mild soap to clean, avoid petroleum based cleaners if using an alternative, and wipe with a lint free cloth.
Bedding-in Street Performance Pads:
For a typical performance brake system using street-performance pads, a series of ten partial braking events, from 60mph down to 10mph, will typically raise the temperature of the brake components sufficiently to be considered one bed-in set. Each of the ten partial braking events should achieve moderate-to-high deceleration (about 80 to 90% of the deceleration required to lock up the brakes and/or to engage the ABS), and they should be made one after the other, without allowing the brakes to cool in between.
Depending on the make-up of the pad material, the brake friction will seem to gain slightly in performance, and will then lose or fade somewhat by around the fifth stop (also about the time that a friction smell will be detectable in the passenger compartment). This does not indicate that the brakes are bedded-in. This phenomenon is known as a green fade, as it is characteristic of immature or ‘green' pads, in which the resins still need to be driven out of the pad material, at the point where the pads meet the rotors. In this circumstance, the upper temperature limit of the friction material will not yet have been reached.
As when bedding-in any set of brakes, care should be taken regarding the longer stopping distance necessary with incompletely bedded pads. This first set of stops in the bed-in process is only complete when all ten stops have been performed - not before. The system should then be allowed to cool, by driving the vehicle at the highest safe speed for the circumstances, without bringing it to a complete stop with the brakes still applied. After cooling the vehicle, a second set of ten partial braking events should be performed, followed by another cooling exercise. In some situations, a third set is beneficial, but two are normally sufficient.
Bedding-in Street Performance Pads:
For a typical performance brake system using street-performance pads, a series of ten partial braking events, from 60mph down to 10mph, will typically raise the temperature of the brake components sufficiently to be considered one bed-in set. Each of the ten partial braking events should achieve moderate-to-high deceleration (about 80 to 90% of the deceleration required to lock up the brakes and/or to engage the ABS), and they should be made one after the other, without allowing the brakes to cool in between.
Depending on the make-up of the pad material, the brake friction will seem to gain slightly in performance, and will then lose or fade somewhat by around the fifth stop (also about the time that a friction smell will be detectable in the passenger compartment). This does not indicate that the brakes are bedded-in. This phenomenon is known as a green fade, as it is characteristic of immature or ‘green' pads, in which the resins still need to be driven out of the pad material, at the point where the pads meet the rotors. In this circumstance, the upper temperature limit of the friction material will not yet have been reached.
As when bedding-in any set of brakes, care should be taken regarding the longer stopping distance necessary with incompletely bedded pads. This first set of stops in the bed-in process is only complete when all ten stops have been performed - not before. The system should then be allowed to cool, by driving the vehicle at the highest safe speed for the circumstances, without bringing it to a complete stop with the brakes still applied. After cooling the vehicle, a second set of ten partial braking events should be performed, followed by another cooling exercise. In some situations, a third set is beneficial, but two are normally sufficient.
11-20-13, 09:52 AM
#24
Well I guess I was steered wrong...I should've asked here first. You learn something new everyday.
So any way to fix this or are the pads a waste now? I would think there's a way to resolve this without getting new pads. I've drove with them about three weeks now.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the replies from all of you guys. I feel like an idiot but at least now I know
So any way to fix this or are the pads a waste now? I would think there's a way to resolve this without getting new pads. I've drove with them about three weeks now.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks for all the replies from all of you guys. I feel like an idiot but at least now I know
You could either resurface your rotors (not what I'd recommend) or just get new pads and bed them in the right way. Your brakes as they sit now probably aren't dangerous for a day to day drive and will be fine, but they obviously are not up to the spirited driving you like to do (and frankly the type of driving the ISF was meant for).
If it weren't for forums like this, I would have never even thought to bed in new pads. I'm glad I did.
11-20-13, 10:09 AM
#25
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Two approaches - as mentioned above, use garnet paper (do NOT use conventional sand paper, or "wet or dry" abrasives, they'll only make it worse) to scuff the rotors, or have someone who has heavily worn race pads (not suitable for another track day) send you a set and install them. Drive around and do 10 good bedding stops with race pads installed to renew the surface, then clean the Project Mu's with alcohol (ethyl or isopropyl) to remove any traces of oil, reinstall, and bed them in again immediately after installing. You should find them to be vastly improved.
11-22-13, 05:05 PM
#26
I must say, I am quite proud to read the responses of so many well versed enthusiasts.
Although there are somewhat different methods to how people accomplish the task of a transfer layer, the parts that remain common are a gradual increase of temperature and a release of agents from the pads after a temperature is achieved - In some cases the pads have already been subjected to heat treatment (Important to note Project Mu NS pads have an added manufacturing process of heat treatment to help release some gases that contribute to fade).
As mentioned by others on this thread, that process should be followed by a 2nd set of stops with the intent of placing the transfer layer onto the rotor, also often referred to as "bedding in."
The whole practice also keeps in mind that you are not to thermally shock a new rotor (iron disc), that should also be brought up to temperature gradually, albeit this is more important for the light weight 2Pc rings.
I think we all should recognize the effort of knowledgeable moderators along with fellow memebers to help guide inquisitive enthusiasts, thanks guys!
Although there are somewhat different methods to how people accomplish the task of a transfer layer, the parts that remain common are a gradual increase of temperature and a release of agents from the pads after a temperature is achieved - In some cases the pads have already been subjected to heat treatment (Important to note Project Mu NS pads have an added manufacturing process of heat treatment to help release some gases that contribute to fade).
As mentioned by others on this thread, that process should be followed by a 2nd set of stops with the intent of placing the transfer layer onto the rotor, also often referred to as "bedding in."
The whole practice also keeps in mind that you are not to thermally shock a new rotor (iron disc), that should also be brought up to temperature gradually, albeit this is more important for the light weight 2Pc rings.
I think we all should recognize the effort of knowledgeable moderators along with fellow memebers to help guide inquisitive enthusiasts, thanks guys!
11-22-13, 05:33 PM
#27
Wow, this bedding-in process probably never would have occurred to me...great stuff to learn.
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, as I will most definitely be re-visiting when I get new pads/rotors (hopefully not for a while)...
And this is the first (brake related) time I've been thrilled to live up on a hill...there is no way for me to get out of my hood without rolling down a steep grade every day. And when my car is cold, I'm in auto mode pretty much relying on the brakes rather than heading down in 2nd gear....
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, as I will most definitely be re-visiting when I get new pads/rotors (hopefully not for a while)...
And this is the first (brake related) time I've been thrilled to live up on a hill...there is no way for me to get out of my hood without rolling down a steep grade every day. And when my car is cold, I'm in auto mode pretty much relying on the brakes rather than heading down in 2nd gear....
11-22-13, 06:25 PM
#29
Wow, this bedding-in process probably never would have occurred to me...great stuff to learn.
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, as I will most definitely be re-visiting when I get new pads/rotors (hopefully not for a while)...
And this is the first (brake related) time I've been thrilled to live up on a hill...there is no way for me to get out of my hood without rolling down a steep grade every day. And when my car is cold, I'm in auto mode pretty much relying on the brakes rather than heading down in 2nd gear....
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, as I will most definitely be re-visiting when I get new pads/rotors (hopefully not for a while)...
And this is the first (brake related) time I've been thrilled to live up on a hill...there is no way for me to get out of my hood without rolling down a steep grade every day. And when my car is cold, I'm in auto mode pretty much relying on the brakes rather than heading down in 2nd gear....
Just beware, do not bed the pads on a road where you would be forced to come to a stop after you have brought them up to bed in temp. If you are bedding in rotors and pads and need to come to a stop, try to avoid any scenario where you would have to hold the brake pedal -
As you are holding the brake pedal down at a stop with the rotor heated up from the hard stops earlier, the pads will place a deposit (in some cases where the pad is sitting for a prolonged duration, the heat from the hot rotor will transfer/conduct through the pad/backing plate/piston to the rubber seal and brake fluid heating it up very quickly beyond general brake fluid's heat capacity). The deposit will on later stops feel like a "warped" rotor while the pad travels over the raised deposit on the rotor surface (steering wheel will shake if the fronts have the deposit).
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