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Old 10-29-12, 09:15 PM   #1
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Default Aftermarket Sub-woofer Advice

So as I've been looking through the forums I noticed a common subwoofer upgrade is for people to run 10W6 from JL. While it's a great sub, the 10W6 is horrendously over-priced. The best bang for your buck Sub is made by a company called TC Sounds Epic Line. They are comparable to the JL W7 line. They hit hard and low and their musical reproduction is far greater than that of the JL lines and are typically referred to in the audio world as a cheap sub for SQ competition. I'm not saying the JL isn't good equipment but it's like buying anything name brand. You are paying a premium for the name and also paying for the costs of marketing.
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Old 10-30-12, 03:26 PM   #2
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Just a grain of salt here.. There are a ton of really good subwoofer manufactures out there. Saying 1 is the best is the sure fire way to show you don’t really know what you are talking about. You are also comparing the W6 vs the W7 which is SQ vs SPL - different types of subwoofers.

Driver Size, power, box dimensions, type and style, not to mention music type all contribute to a subwoofers ability to play well. People choose JL by and large because it’s a name brand, all the shops use it because they produce good products (certainly not cheap products), that are recognizable and have a great history in the car audio scene (and have been around - and will continue to be around for many years). It’s a 'luxury' brand when it comes down to it. They are a bit more expensive - but they aren’t a hole in the wall boutique brand that'll be gone or sold tomorrow.

Personally I recommend boutique brands - because they are a better value and many are very good, some if not better than JL's product lines. Again - subjective based on a lot of factors.

I've never had any experience with the TC Sounds Epic line - but a TC Epic 12" is about $200 - there are a lot of really good subs in that price range. Same goes for Elemental Designs, Digital Designs, ReAudio, ImageDynamics, Morel, Peerless etc. So many variable to say - hey this is the best. The TC Epic is really more in line with a W3 - maybe a little above it but not to W6 in terms of power handling, excursion etc. the W3 is around $260 - not a huge difference. The TC Axis series is really a better comparison - those start in the $400 range - which compares with the W6 which runs around $500. Jump up to the TC LMS and you are in W7 territory (north of $700).

Also the TC Sounds Epic recommends a box that is sealed- 1.5 -2.5 cu ft or Ported- 2.88 -3 cu ft with 2 3" ports 12.25" which are sizable boxes and not what most guys in the IS/ISF go with - most don't want big boxes due to the weight. All the Magic CAS (corner) boxes are 1.2cu. which aren't going to sound right for that sub.

I always recommend for people to either read up at DIYmobileaudio.com or work with a good installer. There's a lot to learn in the car audio hobby and lot of people don't want another hobby - those people tend to buy JL :-)

- Andrew
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Old 10-30-12, 04:56 PM   #3
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ive had JL w7 and Image Dynamics IDMAX and they are very comparable as well if you want to save a bit of money. IMO, i wouldn't put such a heavy sub in the ISF.
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Old 10-30-12, 09:01 PM   #4
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Get a 10 in a sealed box. Nothing rediculas but it will make all the difference with the average ML system and it won't add much weight.
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Old 10-30-12, 11:28 PM   #5
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Saying 1 is the best is the sure fire way to show you donít really know what you are talking about. You are also comparing the W6 vs the W7 which is SQ vs SPL - different types of subwoofers.

I've never had any experience with the TC Sounds Epic line - but a TC Epic 12" is about $200 - there are a lot of really good subs in that price range. Same goes for Elemental Designs, Digital Designs, ReAudio, ImageDynamics, Morel, Peerless etc. So many variable to say - hey this is the best. The TC Epic is really more in line with a W3 - maybe a little above it but not to W6 in terms of power handling, excursion etc. the W3 is around $260 - not a huge difference. The TC Axis series is really a better comparison - those start in the $400 range - which compares with the W6 which runs around $500. Jump up to the TC LMS and you are in W7 territory (north of $700).

Also the TC Sounds Epic recommends a box that is sealed- 1.5 -2.5 cu ft or Ported- 2.88 -3 cu ft with 2 3" ports 12.25" which are sizable boxes and not what most guys in the IS/ISF go with - most don't want big boxes due to the weight. All the Magic CAS (corner) boxes are 1.2cu. which aren't going to sound right for that sub.

I always recommend for people to either read up at DIYmobileaudio.com or work with a good installer. There's a lot to learn in the car audio hobby and lot of people don't want another hobby - those people tend to buy JL :-)

- Andrew
I wasn't saying to choose one. I was just offering a cheaper alternative for people who didn't want to spend $370 on a sub when they can get a better sounding and performing sub for half the cost. Please don't lecture me on not knowing what I'm talking about because I simply recommend something. Where are you getting the fact that the Epic line isn't in the same class as the W7 and is in the class with the W3v3 solely based off price? The Epic line has an X-max of 18.1 mm with an efficiency of 85.2dB the W6 has a 15 mm X-max and 83.7dB efficiency. With 3.1 mm more X-mas and 1.5 dB more efficiency, it will sound far better, louder and will play with much more SQ than a W6 would have in a Magic CAS box. Box recommendations are exactly that, recommendations. The Epic speaker will far better fit the Magic than a W6. I completely agree to go with boutique sub-woofers as you tend to get more for your money. Hence, my whole purpose for creating this thread to offer an alternative to the mainstream speaker choices.
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Old 10-31-12, 12:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G9N View Post
I wasn't saying to choose one. I was just offering a cheaper alternative for people who didn't want to spend $370 on a sub when they can get a better sounding and performing sub for half the cost. Please don't lecture me on not knowing what I'm talking about because I simply recommend something. Where are you getting the fact that the Epic line isn't in the same class as the W7 and is in the class with the W3v3 solely based off price? The Epic line has an X-max of 18.1 mm with an efficiency of 85.2dB the W6 has a 15 mm X-max and 83.7dB efficiency. With 3.1 mm more X-mas and 1.5 dB more efficiency, it will sound far better, louder and will play with much more SQ than a W6 would have in a Magic CAS box. Box recommendations are exactly that, recommendations. The Epic speaker will far better fit the Magic than a W6. I completely agree to go with boutique sub-woofers as you tend to get more for your money. Hence, my whole purpose for creating this thread to offer an alternative to the mainstream speaker choices.
Ok... so the TC Epic line is comparable to the W7 or the W6? just curious since you've said both - they are totally different subs, for different applications. Box recommendations aren't important now? come on - manufactures put out specific box specs to make their products sound the best they can.. so people will buy them, be happy and recommend them. You can certainly stray from the recommended specs slightly - and theres the whole science (mostly guessing) on box design for ported and chambered boxes - but sealed (which most ISF guys go with) the forum posts i've seen show the TC being well suited in a 2-4cu sealed box - thats not even close to comparable to a Magic Cas Box. Oh - and I actually looked at the wrong magic cas box - the IS300 model provides 1.2cu - the IS2x50/F is .8 cu... which would make the TC sound even worse. JL recommends 1.2-1.25 cu for both the W3/6's btw. not perfect but close.

The TC is really a home audio sub and it can be used in mobile applications - and It does look like a nice sub - its just not even close to what I'd recommend for a small sealed box, nor would i recommend it as a great alternative to a W6/7.

Buy a Magic box and try it out - Maybe its awesome but based on the specs I dont see how it could be. It would probably be great in a big sealed box - or a nice ported box. i'm all for boutique brands - both for home and car audio. You can get great drivers for a lot less than main stream brands. The only downside is its near impossible to hear a product before buying it - which is unfortunate, and why its so hard to get people to try these brands.

- Andrew
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Old 10-31-12, 09:47 AM   #7
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....lollll this thread on caraudio.com /diymobileaudio/ caraudioclassifieds/ any car audio forum would be blasted so hard. BUT ill leave my very basic input on brands. a brand in car audio honestly to me shows personality. you have nut huggers that buy 1 woofer from a company and there fanboys for life. then you have people who buy and try all types of brands. and of course you will always have the people who buy a brand (aka jl) because they have a great name and thats what they heard in the buddies car and there buddy knows everything there is to know about car audio. just my opinion on brands.
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Old 10-31-12, 11:54 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by silverlexg View Post
Ok... so the TC Epic line is comparable to the W7 or the W6? just curious since you've said both - they are totally different subs, for different applications. Box recommendations aren't important now? come on - manufactures put out specific box specs to make their products sound the best they can.. so people will buy them, be happy and recommend them. You can certainly stray from the recommended specs slightly - and theres the whole science (mostly guessing) on box design for ported and chambered boxes - but sealed (which most ISF guys go with) the forum posts i've seen show the TC being well suited in a 2-4cu sealed box - thats not even close to comparable to a Magic Cas Box. Oh - and I actually looked at the wrong magic cas box - the IS300 model provides 1.2cu - the IS2x50/F is .8 cu... which would make the TC sound even worse. JL recommends 1.2-1.25 cu for both the W3/6's btw. not perfect but close.

The TC is really a home audio sub and it can be used in mobile applications - and It does look like a nice sub - its just not even close to what I'd recommend for a small sealed box, nor would i recommend it as a great alternative to a W6/7.

Buy a Magic box and try it out - Maybe its awesome but based on the specs I dont see how it could be. It would probably be great in a big sealed box - or a nice ported box. i'm all for boutique brands - both for home and car audio. You can get great drivers for a lot less than main stream brands. The only downside is its near impossible to hear a product before buying it - which is unfortunate, and why its so hard to get people to try these brands.

- Andrew
What I'm sayin is the sub is above a W6 in output and clarity and close to a W7 in output. I had 2 of the 8's in a .7 cu. ft. sealed box and my SQ is spectacular all the way down to about 24 hz at about 120 dB. This sub will be fine in a .8-.9 sealed box. Once again, the box parameters are just recommendations set by the companies because they are generalized standards that they'll sound good. However, those calculations are based off of square or rectangular boxes with proper bracing so there is no flex in the box so that the box doesn't give off it's own frequency. That being said, car audio is the hardest form of audio to get to blend well. You have cabin gain, frequency absorbing materials and frequency inhibitors, cross cancelation and a slew of other factors. Bottom line is if I put a TC Sound 10 in a Magic Box and blindly swapped a JL 10W6v2 in it's place on the same wattage. You probably wouldn't be able to tell, in fact the only thing you might notice is volume loss going to the W6. So if all you're looking for is a sub that hits hard, has good sound quality and made well, why not buy the TC speaker at half the price?

Furthermore, I had no idea inanimate objects had any idea as to whether or not they were in a car or house... So let me get this straight, you'd recommend a big box for a speaker with a Qts of 0.31. Yet you think a speaker with a Qts of 0.469 is more suited to a small enclosure? Please enlighten me on how this makes any sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexusis07 View Post
....lollll this thread on caraudio.com /diymobileaudio/ caraudioclassifieds/ any car audio forum would be blasted so hard. BUT ill leave my very basic input on brands. a brand in car audio honestly to me shows personality. you have nut huggers that buy 1 woofer from a company and there fanboys for life. then you have people who buy and try all types of brands. and of course you will always have the people who buy a brand (aka jl) because they have a great name and thats what they heard in the buddies car and there buddy knows everything there is to know about car audio. just my opinion on brands.
Agreed. My purpose of this thread was to suggest a woofer for half the price of the JL that sounds just as good if not better than the JL lines.
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Old 10-31-12, 12:59 PM   #9
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What I'm sayin is the sub is above a W6 in output and clarity and close to a W7 in output. I had 2 of the 8's in a .7 cu. ft. sealed box and my SQ is spectacular all the way down to about 24 hz at about 120 dB. This sub will be fine in a .8-.9 sealed box. Once again, the box parameters are just recommendations set by the companies because they are generalized standards that they'll sound good. However, those calculations are based off of square or rectangular boxes with proper bracing so there is no flex in the box so that the box doesn't give off it's own frequency. That being said, car audio is the hardest form of audio to get to blend well. You have cabin gain, frequency absorbing materials and frequency inhibitors, cross cancelation and a slew of other factors. Bottom line is if I put a TC Sound 10 in a Magic Box and blindly swapped a JL 10W6v2 in it's place on the same wattage. You probably wouldn't be able to tell, in fact the only thing you might notice is volume loss going to the W6. So if all you're looking for is a sub that hits hard, has good sound quality and made well, why not buy the TC speaker at half the price?

Furthermore, I had no idea inanimate objects had any idea as to whether or not they were in a car or house... So let me get this straight, you'd recommend a big box for a speaker with a Qts of 0.31. Yet you think a speaker with a Qts of 0.469 is more suited to a small enclosure? Please enlighten me on how this makes any sense.



Agreed. My purpose of this thread was to suggest a woofer for half the price of the JL that sounds just as good if not better than the JL lines.
Ok - guess we'll disagree, I think you are recommending a poor sub for a small sealed enclosure (regardless if the enclosure is square, rectangle or fiberglass - volume is volume as long as the box is ridgid). The 'inanimate' objects (haha) don't know where they are.. but if the manufacture designs them for an environment where big square/rectangle boxes are acceptable (houses) - boxes that are big and heavy and generally not acceptable in an ISF (due to weight and trunk space) its reasonable to assume they are best used in a home setting. Again - you can use them in a CA setting, but there's nothing that shows a small sealed box would at all be a good fit.

I'd also be very suprised to see a sealed 8 get to 24hz at 120+db - what model/power? I'd love to model that up and see what the actual projections are. An 8 can certainly do that but in a ported box, not that it matters since the stock ML system has a non defeatable 35hz crossover. but you probably 'know' that too right.

Hey you are doing the community a great service though - confusing people who aren't knowlegable about subs, recommend they ignore the manufacures box specs, and claim its better than a W6 and near output of a W7. Give me a break - take this up on the audio forums and let it be discussed there.
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Old 10-31-12, 01:05 PM   #10
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And not to confuse anyone - I do not own a JL W6 - I've owned JL products, Subs and Amps (only amps now) and would recommend one of the many boutique brands out there as they have a great value - just make sure the sub and box are matched up correctly. I have a 12" ImageDynamics IDQ with a magic cas box in my ISF and have been quite happy with it (which is designed for a .65-1.0cu sealed box).- its not as loud as my RE XXX but different car, different goals.

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Old 11-01-12, 08:34 PM   #11
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Silver, do you even know what the Qts is indicative of? All you're doing is trying to discredit me on the forum and have very little knowledge of what you're talking about.

Also, I never said that my two 8's achieved that SQ curve in my IS F. However, it was a typo it was 110 db's and it was taken in my friends Chevy Sonic with a Nakamichi CD700 head unit not a piggy-backed set-up. They were getting a total of 1090W RMS @ 1 ohm from a Audison LRx 1.1K. The 8's were the TC Sound Epic.

Finally, I took your advice and posted on the car audio forums about which driver would they select. Feel free to see for yourself what others have to say. http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwo...jl-10w6v2.html
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Old 11-02-12, 01:36 AM   #12
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How's this for extra weight I'm pretty lame and didn't want another hobby so I bought JL . 1 big a**, heaviest box I could make sealed with 2 over priced 12jlw6, powered by 2 kicker zx750.1 and a kinetic battery to the left of the amp rack, with 22g wire for weight reduction, and the whole trunk is covered with dynomat, even the gas cover . Oh and that bottle is filled with helium to balance out the weight of the box. no need for you all to argue dang.
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Old 11-02-12, 08:15 AM   #13
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lamo ^^^^ this looks just like steave's isf build but 2 12s and not as fancied up. anyway... lexg you really dont know much about what you can do with an isx50 trunk eh? my door speakers burp a 110 lol. clearly you dont know the power of the mighty 8s. last setup i ran 4 sundown sa-8v2s on a crescendo bc3500 at 5.ohm and i was doing 153s @ 46hz. with good knowledge, a little power and any woofer out there a 110 is not much of a barrier to break. as far as you complaining about him not using manufactures specs for the enclosure.. the manufactures specs are there to make there product sound good in the widest range of vehicles on most types of music on recommended power. that being said, they dont account for more then 1 or 2 woofers, what freq your preference is, vehicles freq, power or any other variables. so to say that the manufactures box specs are the best for everyones build is just simply not the case at all. how do you think world records are broken? how do you think 182dbs is achievable? how do you think people play down to 13hz and break windshields? certainly not by using recommended box specs.
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Old 11-02-12, 11:22 AM   #14
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^ ya not as fancy but FYI, my build was done way before his. I put pics on his forum and then I see him making the same thing. I have another panel for the other side but the nitrous gets too hot in the summer so I took it out for the time being and put a fan in. I'm going to make something new though, so it looks better and doesn't over heat.
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Old 11-02-12, 11:54 AM   #15
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Okay, since there are a lot of audiophiles in here, let me ask a related question or two:

1.) What do you guys think about the "thin" or shallow mount subs? I'm possibly looking for something like a 10" shallow mount sub, and I have a brand new Alpine amp to run it that puts out 300W rms at 4ohms or 500W rms at 2ohms. What subs should I be looking at?

2.) I'm probably going to have a custom made, small sealed box and amp rack made for the car, based on the suggested specs of whatever sub I get. What direction should I have the sub firing (towards the back seat, down, towards the rear of the car, etc) for good clean bass?

I used to be in to car audio years ago, and have had everything from JLs W6 line to Infinity Perfects, to Rockford Fosgate and MTX (remember them). I'm not a brand w.****, I just want something that sounds good and is small/light. The stock ML sub just doesn't quite cut it.
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