High Altitude + Tune = Think again (bye KCLV)
05-20-16, 11:44 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
High Altitude + Tune = Think again (bye KCLV)
Well I figured I'd start a new thread to add more knowledge to the tuned community and give some important info to those considering the tune who DO NOT live at sea level.
WARNING lots of reading I'll add cliff notes for you lazy people
I'll start by saying the mile high group were the first on the board to give independent dyno results after the tunes were released. I was reluctant to be the baseline for everyone here since I was skeptical of the altitude and the tune behaving. Many people bashed us because not all of us did baselines ect ect but whatever... We have a good mixture of mods between a few of us and about 5 of us dyno'd the same day previously. Myself and another board member have nearly identical mods with the exception of tune TTFS vs RR and catted vs decatted. After our initial dyno day us with the tune were a little disappointed with the outcome of our tunes vs non tuned cars. I chalked mine up to only having a few hundred miles on my TTFS tune and thought maybe it didn't 'learn' enough yet... I didnt have Techstream yet. I've recently got my Techstream up and running with all this KCLV talk and have been doing the typical logging to research KCLV numbers since I was planning on hitting the dyno up again tomorrow (sat 5/21). After my first numbers pulled were a little frighteningly low I began reading and doing what the other members have been recommending as far as high gear WOT pulls to pull the numbers up.
Day 1. Pull my numbers after 2k miles with the tune. KCLV =14.9/13.x (under 3k/over 3k)
"That can't be right, can it?" I didn't think it was supposed to go under the 'default' value of 15. I'm at about 58k miles nearly so I think hmm maybe I should replace my plugs. I order some OEM Denso plugs but until then lets go try doing some highway pulls until those show up. I get the car all warmed up and head out to the highway with my laptop and Techstream riding shotgun.
I begin doing some high load 6-8 gear pulls while trying to monitor the KCLV. I eagerly expect this value to be climbing as others have stated but mine keeps going down. I do more and more pulls with the same result and head back home.
End of day 1. My KCLV values have now plummeted to 10s/11s... yes you're reading that correct.
Day 2. Pull the ECU fuses lets reset this bad boy this can't be real life. Warm up the car and head out to the open roads for more WOT pulls... more WTF moments as my KCLV continue to plummet from 15 back down. Amazon Prime FTW my spark plugs arrive tomorrow. Read up on the boards and people recommend Octane booster... that's my next thing after testing my plugs.
Day 3. Plugs arrive and head to my buddies shop and bribe some local F guys to help swap my plugs, that was fun. New plugs, new high KCLV numbers here I come! Wait now my Techstream wont connect, how convenient... did some troubleshooting & fix it. stupid antivirus keeps removing the xhorse dll as a 'virus'. I replace it good to go. Buy some Royal Purple octane booster.
Day 4. Add more 91 Shell (91 highest in CO)... Off to try more pulls with the new plugs... KCLV still sucks after wasting a half tank driving around.
Day 5. Head to gas station add RP octane booster to half tank of gas and topped off again before work. Go do more pulls tonight... nope still just drops even after resetting the ecu ect. Head to meet up with the local guys now that I've got my Techstream running and thinking my car is just FUBAR. Hook up to the RR tuned ECU and to my excitement (mostly that my car isn't really FUBAR) and his numbers were below 15 as well. I let him do some pulls and his is behaving exactly like mine where the numbers are going down @ WOT. Hooked up to our buddies non tuned ECU and his values are all above 15 and closer to 20. So much like I had posted in one of the other tuned threads I was skeptical of the 'cookie cutter' tune. I wanted to use altitude as a bit of an excuse but now it seems to backed up a bit more with evidence that works great for the sea level folks but sucks ***** for altitude. I'm planning on trying to get the KCLV of other stock vs tuned Colorado guys but we're all over the state so that's going to take some work.
Cliffs:
-My KCLV numbers sucked bad... like really bad.
-Bought new OEM plugs and installed them
-KCLV numbers didn't climb but instead keep going down at WOT.
-Reset ECU and the default value of 15 goes down at WOT again. Think my car is damaged.
-Added Royal Purple Octane booster to Shell 91 and still not helping
-Pull KCLV of fellow members RR tuned car his numbers suck as well even after doing more WOT pulls. Good my car isn't broke.
-Pull non tuned ecu KCLV... his numbers are closer to 20.
-Tuned ECU at high altitude (5,280') is doing the opposite to KCLV numbers than at sea level.
-Planning to pull more KCLV numbers from other locals to see tuned vs non tuned to gather more data.
Hope this information is useful to those still considering the tune and even to the tuners. It's definitely not the end all be all tune for everyone. Seems like it works great for those at low elevation but its not helping us at all one bit and needs work...So until TTFS and RR get that resolved for us I'd say hold on to that money if a future tune is burning a hole in your pocket.
WARNING lots of reading I'll add cliff notes for you lazy people
I'll start by saying the mile high group were the first on the board to give independent dyno results after the tunes were released. I was reluctant to be the baseline for everyone here since I was skeptical of the altitude and the tune behaving. Many people bashed us because not all of us did baselines ect ect but whatever... We have a good mixture of mods between a few of us and about 5 of us dyno'd the same day previously. Myself and another board member have nearly identical mods with the exception of tune TTFS vs RR and catted vs decatted. After our initial dyno day us with the tune were a little disappointed with the outcome of our tunes vs non tuned cars. I chalked mine up to only having a few hundred miles on my TTFS tune and thought maybe it didn't 'learn' enough yet... I didnt have Techstream yet. I've recently got my Techstream up and running with all this KCLV talk and have been doing the typical logging to research KCLV numbers since I was planning on hitting the dyno up again tomorrow (sat 5/21). After my first numbers pulled were a little frighteningly low I began reading and doing what the other members have been recommending as far as high gear WOT pulls to pull the numbers up.
Day 1. Pull my numbers after 2k miles with the tune. KCLV =14.9/13.x (under 3k/over 3k)
"That can't be right, can it?" I didn't think it was supposed to go under the 'default' value of 15. I'm at about 58k miles nearly so I think hmm maybe I should replace my plugs. I order some OEM Denso plugs but until then lets go try doing some highway pulls until those show up. I get the car all warmed up and head out to the highway with my laptop and Techstream riding shotgun.I begin doing some high load 6-8 gear pulls while trying to monitor the KCLV. I eagerly expect this value to be climbing as others have stated but mine keeps going down. I do more and more pulls with the same result and head back home.
End of day 1. My KCLV values have now plummeted to 10s/11s... yes you're reading that correct.
Day 2. Pull the ECU fuses lets reset this bad boy this can't be real life. Warm up the car and head out to the open roads for more WOT pulls... more WTF moments as my KCLV continue to plummet from 15 back down. Amazon Prime FTW my spark plugs arrive tomorrow. Read up on the boards and people recommend Octane booster... that's my next thing after testing my plugs.
Day 3. Plugs arrive and head to my buddies shop and bribe some local F guys to help swap my plugs, that was fun. New plugs, new high KCLV numbers here I come! Wait now my Techstream wont connect, how convenient... did some troubleshooting & fix it. stupid antivirus keeps removing the xhorse dll as a 'virus'. I replace it good to go. Buy some Royal Purple octane booster.
Day 4. Add more 91 Shell (91 highest in CO)... Off to try more pulls with the new plugs... KCLV still sucks after wasting a half tank driving around.
Day 5. Head to gas station add RP octane booster to half tank of gas and topped off again before work. Go do more pulls tonight... nope still just drops even after resetting the ecu ect. Head to meet up with the local guys now that I've got my Techstream running and thinking my car is just FUBAR. Hook up to the RR tuned ECU and to my excitement (mostly that my car isn't really FUBAR) and his numbers were below 15 as well. I let him do some pulls and his is behaving exactly like mine where the numbers are going down @ WOT. Hooked up to our buddies non tuned ECU and his values are all above 15 and closer to 20. So much like I had posted in one of the other tuned threads I was skeptical of the 'cookie cutter' tune. I wanted to use altitude as a bit of an excuse but now it seems to backed up a bit more with evidence that works great for the sea level folks but sucks ***** for altitude. I'm planning on trying to get the KCLV of other stock vs tuned Colorado guys but we're all over the state so that's going to take some work.
Cliffs:
-My KCLV numbers sucked bad... like really bad.
-Bought new OEM plugs and installed them
-KCLV numbers didn't climb but instead keep going down at WOT.
-Reset ECU and the default value of 15 goes down at WOT again. Think my car is damaged.
-Added Royal Purple Octane booster to Shell 91 and still not helping
-Pull KCLV of fellow members RR tuned car his numbers suck as well even after doing more WOT pulls. Good my car isn't broke.
-Pull non tuned ecu KCLV... his numbers are closer to 20.
-Tuned ECU at high altitude (5,280') is doing the opposite to KCLV numbers than at sea level.
-Planning to pull more KCLV numbers from other locals to see tuned vs non tuned to gather more data.
Hope this information is useful to those still considering the tune and even to the tuners. It's definitely not the end all be all tune for everyone. Seems like it works great for those at low elevation but its not helping us at all one bit and needs work...So until TTFS and RR get that resolved for us I'd say hold on to that money if a future tune is burning a hole in your pocket.
05-21-16, 12:31 AM
#2
Dang, sorry to hear this. Was hoping after the dyno day the numbers would go up. Let me know if you need to get some more numbers from a non tuned F.
Hoping TTFS and RR can do some high altitude tweaking to the tune for us.
Hoping TTFS and RR can do some high altitude tweaking to the tune for us.
05-21-16, 12:42 AM
#3
Great read. Seems to be the consensus for all 3 of us with the tune. Whether it be RR or TTFS, nothing against the two. All makes sense, after the ecu reset car runs like a champ at factory set kclv of 15 but goes downhill from there, kcl value and performance as well. As being the first ones to run the tune we have expected some hiccups or revisions to be made rightfully so... Perhaps headers will smooth everything out? Who knows, all we can do is report our findings and try to help the tuned community as a whole
05-21-16, 03:15 AM
#4
Good reading . And thanks for posting this . Like you said so other members can save their money until it's resolved . The SoCal F'ers reported gains and higher KCVL numbers .
05-21-16, 07:20 AM
#6
When doing the runs, check the IAT. High IAT will affect your KCLV. I noticed that when I did my pulls, don't do it all back to back. Engine will pull timing if it gets super hot in there. My IAT were super high on my runs and ouside temp was in the 60s.
05-21-16, 08:49 AM
#7
Advanced
Thread Starter
I remember people saying to keep an eye on that which I did. My IAT was only about 70 when doing pulls and it was still going down.
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05-21-16, 11:30 AM
#9
You're not raising your octane any appreciable amount. It would take about 2 gallons of 121 octane toluene to make 16 gallons of 91 octane about 93.5 octane. You added 1/4 of the toluene to half the 91. You're at something like 92 octane. Which should still be fine for a 11.8:1 compression ratio.
Have you tried different gas stations? Torco distributer? There's a place that Torco has listed as a distributor in Loveland, CO. No idea if that's close to you or not.
Just throwing ideas out. Ideally you keep removing possible causes till you start to see a difference (something you obviously already are trying).
Has anyone sent Datalogs from your elevations to TTFS and/or RRRacing?
Have you tried different gas stations? Torco distributer? There's a place that Torco has listed as a distributor in Loveland, CO. No idea if that's close to you or not.
Just throwing ideas out. Ideally you keep removing possible causes till you start to see a difference (something you obviously already are trying).
Has anyone sent Datalogs from your elevations to TTFS and/or RRRacing?
Last edited by Bigjon3475; 05-21-16 at 11:36 AM.
05-21-16, 12:47 PM
#10
From modding and driving modified cars (both NA and Turbo), in my personal opinion, this whole tune thing is a waste of money on an NA engine. 10-15 horsepower is what I would expect from it.
To me unless you're going to boost the car, there isn't much on the table to play with as far as increasing power via ECU on this car. It's already tuned pretty good and runs 11.8:1 compression
IF you're going to tune this car anyways, custom dyno tuning is the way to go. Each car is a bit different, I would not run "off the shelf" maps and expect everything to be dead on, doesn't work that way.
When I installed the stage 2 package on my WRX STi, it lost power with the off the shelf map and ran like crap. The car was making 225 awhp and 224 awtq. Not quite stage 2 numbers for an STi.
Off to the dyno I went. I already had a 65mm CAI and a walbro 255 fuel pump installed.
7 pulls and some adjustments..... 262 awhp, 293 awtq! The car ran smooth all the way to redline and was mighty quick. (weighed 3263 lbs)
To me unless you're going to boost the car, there isn't much on the table to play with as far as increasing power via ECU on this car. It's already tuned pretty good and runs 11.8:1 compression
IF you're going to tune this car anyways, custom dyno tuning is the way to go. Each car is a bit different, I would not run "off the shelf" maps and expect everything to be dead on, doesn't work that way.
When I installed the stage 2 package on my WRX STi, it lost power with the off the shelf map and ran like crap. The car was making 225 awhp and 224 awtq. Not quite stage 2 numbers for an STi.
Off to the dyno I went. I already had a 65mm CAI and a walbro 255 fuel pump installed.
7 pulls and some adjustments..... 262 awhp, 293 awtq! The car ran smooth all the way to redline and was mighty quick. (weighed 3263 lbs)
Last edited by 2URGSE; 05-21-16 at 12:52 PM.
05-21-16, 04:13 PM
#11
Advanced
Thread Starter
You're not raising your octane any appreciable amount. It would take about 2 gallons of 121 octane toluene to make 16 gallons of 91 octane about 93.5 octane. You added 1/4 of the toluene to half the 91. You're at something like 92 octane. Which should still be fine for a 11.8:1 compression ratio.
Have you tried different gas stations? Torco distributer? There's a place that Torco has listed as a distributor in Loveland, CO. No idea if that's close to you or not.
Just throwing ideas out. Ideally you keep removing possible causes till you start to see a difference (something you obviously already are trying).
Has anyone sent Datalogs from your elevations to TTFS and/or RRRacing?
Have you tried different gas stations? Torco distributer? There's a place that Torco has listed as a distributor in Loveland, CO. No idea if that's close to you or not.
Just throwing ideas out. Ideally you keep removing possible causes till you start to see a difference (something you obviously already are trying).
Has anyone sent Datalogs from your elevations to TTFS and/or RRRacing?
From modding and driving modified cars (both NA and Turbo), in my personal opinion, this whole tune thing is a waste of money on an NA engine. 10-15 horsepower is what I would expect from it.
To me unless you're going to boost the car, there isn't much on the table to play with as far as increasing power via ECU on this car. It's already tuned pretty good and runs 11.8:1 compression
IF you're going to tune this car anyways, custom dyno tuning is the way to go. Each car is a bit different, I would not run "off the shelf" maps and expect everything to be dead on, doesn't work that way.
When I installed the stage 2 package on my WRX STi, it lost power with the off the shelf map and ran like crap. The car was making 225 awhp and 224 awtq. Not quite stage 2 numbers for an STi.
Off to the dyno I went. I already had a 65mm CAI and a walbro 255 fuel pump installed.
7 pulls and some adjustments..... 262 awhp, 293 awtq! The car ran smooth all the way to redline and was mighty quick. (weighed 3263 lbs)
To me unless you're going to boost the car, there isn't much on the table to play with as far as increasing power via ECU on this car. It's already tuned pretty good and runs 11.8:1 compression
IF you're going to tune this car anyways, custom dyno tuning is the way to go. Each car is a bit different, I would not run "off the shelf" maps and expect everything to be dead on, doesn't work that way.
When I installed the stage 2 package on my WRX STi, it lost power with the off the shelf map and ran like crap. The car was making 225 awhp and 224 awtq. Not quite stage 2 numbers for an STi.
Off to the dyno I went. I already had a 65mm CAI and a walbro 255 fuel pump installed.
7 pulls and some adjustments..... 262 awhp, 293 awtq! The car ran smooth all the way to redline and was mighty quick. (weighed 3263 lbs)
05-21-16, 05:16 PM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Update:
Just got back from the dyno. I monitored my KCLV, IAT, Engine temps while doing the pulls. I did a total of 6 pulls in 6th gear.
Car Info: 2008 ISF, New Denso Plugs, Royal Purple Octane Booster + 91 Shell Octane, Joez Intake & Exhaust, AFE Dry Filter, TTFS Tune, RR AOS. 58,000 miles.
Run #1 - Straight from the street onto the dyno, I didn't change anything with the KCLV or anything just whatever my numbers were from the driving I've done this week, put up or shutup.
KLVC: 15.3/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 113/109 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/198 F
RESULTS: 359.76/342.17
*Car cool down*
Run #2 - No changes just let the car cool for several minutes while off before this pull.
KLVC: 12.9/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 106/108 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/201 F
RESULTS: 361.83/347.09
*Car cool down*
Run #3 - No changes just let the car cool for several minutes while off before this pull.
KLVC: 12.5/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 104/106 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/198 F
RESULTS: 365.78/340.25
*Car cool down*
Run #4 - ECU reset via fuse removal
KLVC: 15/14.9 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 95/104 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/205 F
RESULTS: 370.33/352.47
*Car cool down*
Run #5 - ECU reset via fuse removal
KLVC: 15/15 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 95/104 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 187/205 F
RESULTS: 378.26/357.66
*Car cool down*
Run #6 - ECU reset via fuse removal, hood lowered for ****s and giggles
KLVC: 15/14.7 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 93/106 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/201 F
RESULTS: 377.64/358.21
So there's some numbers to make you scratch your head more. The more aggressive I drive my car the KCLV numbers decreased. But apparently my numbers slightly improved in HP/TQ in most situations although KCVL went down. Resetting my ECU back to the 'default' 15 KCLV number seems to 'improve' & make more power but its counter productive because every WOT pull just causes those numbers to go back down which is why I kept resetting my ecu in the later runs. Who knows... I'm like $1k into this tune so far including dyno time and my head hurts.
Graphs from pulls 1-3
Graphs from all pulls minus #2
Best run print out with the other run conditions included
Just got back from the dyno. I monitored my KCLV, IAT, Engine temps while doing the pulls. I did a total of 6 pulls in 6th gear.
Car Info: 2008 ISF, New Denso Plugs, Royal Purple Octane Booster + 91 Shell Octane, Joez Intake & Exhaust, AFE Dry Filter, TTFS Tune, RR AOS. 58,000 miles.
Run #1 - Straight from the street onto the dyno, I didn't change anything with the KCLV or anything just whatever my numbers were from the driving I've done this week, put up or shutup.
KLVC: 15.3/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 113/109 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/198 F
RESULTS: 359.76/342.17
*Car cool down*
Run #2 - No changes just let the car cool for several minutes while off before this pull.
KLVC: 12.9/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 106/108 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/201 F
RESULTS: 361.83/347.09
*Car cool down*
Run #3 - No changes just let the car cool for several minutes while off before this pull.
KLVC: 12.5/11 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 104/106 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/198 F
RESULTS: 365.78/340.25
*Car cool down*
Run #4 - ECU reset via fuse removal
KLVC: 15/14.9 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 95/104 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/205 F
RESULTS: 370.33/352.47
*Car cool down*
Run #5 - ECU reset via fuse removal
KLVC: 15/15 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 95/104 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 187/205 F
RESULTS: 378.26/357.66
*Car cool down*
Run #6 - ECU reset via fuse removal, hood lowered for ****s and giggles
KLVC: 15/14.7 (under 3k/over 3k)
IAT: 93/106 F (start of pull/end of pull)
Coolant: 190/201 F
RESULTS: 377.64/358.21
So there's some numbers to make you scratch your head more. The more aggressive I drive my car the KCLV numbers decreased. But apparently my numbers slightly improved in HP/TQ in most situations although KCVL went down. Resetting my ECU back to the 'default' 15 KCLV number seems to 'improve' & make more power but its counter productive because every WOT pull just causes those numbers to go back down which is why I kept resetting my ecu in the later runs. Who knows... I'm like $1k into this tune so far including dyno time and my head hurts.
Graphs from pulls 1-3
Graphs from all pulls minus #2
Best run print out with the other run conditions included
Last edited by liquidtek; 05-21-16 at 05:20 PM.
05-21-16, 05:51 PM
#13
I bought some VP 100 octane unleaded yesterday southwest of Union on Alameda in Lakewood at Shell. They have a separate pump for the race gas. They also sell ethanol free premium.
Maybe worth a try, it is cheaper there than buying it at Bandermeire.
It is $9.20 a gallon though.... Should have brought my octane when mixed with 91 up to 94 using an octane calculator.
I took a drive down to garden of the gods, and the car felt great. Not sure what the higher octane may have done at these high elevations and with no tune. Car felt like it was running really strong though.
Maybe worth a try, it is cheaper there than buying it at Bandermeire.
It is $9.20 a gallon though.... Should have brought my octane when mixed with 91 up to 94 using an octane calculator.
I took a drive down to garden of the gods, and the car felt great. Not sure what the higher octane may have done at these high elevations and with no tune. Car felt like it was running really strong though.
Last edited by 5280ISF; 05-21-16 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Corrected gas station location
05-21-16, 05:59 PM
#14
Pole Position
Good documentation Chris!
05-21-16, 06:13 PM
#15
Pole Position
Liquidtek - props for all the data logging and really digging into this. I know it must be frustrating to be dealing with this but hopefully the data will help to develop more reliable tunes for all of us down the road.
Just curious - since you have the OBD programmer have you tried going back to stock to see if your KCLV values behave differently? I know you mentioned some of the guys with no tune have higher numbers but this would be another solid piece of the puzzle, IMO.
I have done extensive data logging myself to try to really understand KCLV but have not experienced anything like this. I do see them drop with high IATs but certainly nothing like this. I hope you get this figured out quickly man!
Just curious - since you have the OBD programmer have you tried going back to stock to see if your KCLV values behave differently? I know you mentioned some of the guys with no tune have higher numbers but this would be another solid piece of the puzzle, IMO.
I have done extensive data logging myself to try to really understand KCLV but have not experienced anything like this. I do see them drop with high IATs but certainly nothing like this. I hope you get this figured out quickly man!