ATF (fluid) for IS F
12-24-15, 10:22 AM
#1
ATF (fluid) for IS F
Has anyone done this? I got roughly 60k and I want to replace fluid through the dealer it just makes me feel more comfortable I know these are lifetime fluids I need advice as some dealers won't do it and some will the car probably doesn't need it and if it ain't broke don't fix it but I would like some real world opinion on how the car felt before and after for anyone who has swapped the fluid
12-24-15, 10:32 AM
#2
I wouldn't worry @ 60k miles. Lobuxracer had his at checked by Blackstone and it turned out OK around 100+k miles. Unless you are experiencing the "cold flare" problem, I would get the fluid levels checked. There is a thread on this and I'm just too lazy to find it for you.
12-24-15, 11:01 AM
#3
12-26-15, 09:36 AM
#5
If you're ever driven a manual transmission car, I'd say it's most similar to a slipping clutch. When you press on the gas, the RPM will shoot up a few hundred RPM while at the same time not really accelerating. It'll then "catch" and the RPM will drop down and you'll start gaining power. My car (which also has 60k miles) has the cold flare. It also flares when it's warm and when going down hill (at times, not always). I have an appointment with Lexus of Riverside to get my trans fluid checked. If they find it low, they're going to help add some fluid. I'm probably going to tell them to also extract some so that I could send a sample to Blackstone.
Of all the dealers I called in the greater Los Angeles area, Lexus of Riverside, and specifically Erik Smith (SA) seemed to be the most knowledgeable about the trans issue I described, and the most knowledgable when it came down to the actual procedures for the fluid check/fill. Most SA were telling me it would only take 2 hours for the check and were asking way more than what Erik was asking. For reference, he asked for less than 200, while the other dealers (which seemed to have no idea about the complexity of the procedures) was asking for 350+. If you're in SoCal, I suggest giving that dealer a call and asking for Erik. Or, you can wait for my results. I have my appointment schedule for January 14th.
Of all the dealers I called in the greater Los Angeles area, Lexus of Riverside, and specifically Erik Smith (SA) seemed to be the most knowledgeable about the trans issue I described, and the most knowledgable when it came down to the actual procedures for the fluid check/fill. Most SA were telling me it would only take 2 hours for the check and were asking way more than what Erik was asking. For reference, he asked for less than 200, while the other dealers (which seemed to have no idea about the complexity of the procedures) was asking for 350+. If you're in SoCal, I suggest giving that dealer a call and asking for Erik. Or, you can wait for my results. I have my appointment schedule for January 14th.
12-26-15, 01:16 PM
#6
Not changing your transmission fluid
I've been working on cars for nearly 45 years. I've build motors of all types, drag racing transmissions, most types of differentials and transfer cases. I've made a lot of mistakes and had to learn many things the hard way. Some areas I do not cut corners on and believe me when the little kids in my neighborhood walk past me I hear them chirp like little birds, point and say, "cheap, cheap, cheap".
I've made a bunch of posts about changing Toyota WS transmission fluid and how it is made. The whole thing reminds me of when Mobil 1 first came out in the late sixties. The stuff really was amazing and the word was that you never needed to change it. Every ten thousand miles all you needed to do was change the filter and top off the sump. That was it and there were plenty of testimonials. The truth is that you could actually do it. The motor generally ran ok.
Then a few people took the motors apart after about 100 k miles. The insides weren't really so pretty. All the wear areas really were wearing. Bearings, rings, cylinder walls, guides, etc. did not look so good.
Truth was the oil stood up really well and did not break down, Just like Mobil said. The problem was that wear particles were suspended in that oil. The evidence was in the color of the oil. It was black and the particulates accelerated wear on contact surfaces.
Some of these new oils today are just as good as the original Mobil and there is little doubt we could run them a long time. Some long haul trucks go 100 k between oil changes, but those truck sumps hold 50 quarts and they rarely shut the motor off. They to use oil analysis to determine when the oil needs changing.
If these oils are so great how come we don't just change half the oil in the motor? Thats what you guys are suggesting with your transmissions.
Changing transmission fluid in the F is easy and will only take a couple of hours. 60,000 miles is plenty for any transmission fluid, so change it.
Loren
I've made a bunch of posts about changing Toyota WS transmission fluid and how it is made. The whole thing reminds me of when Mobil 1 first came out in the late sixties. The stuff really was amazing and the word was that you never needed to change it. Every ten thousand miles all you needed to do was change the filter and top off the sump. That was it and there were plenty of testimonials. The truth is that you could actually do it. The motor generally ran ok.
Then a few people took the motors apart after about 100 k miles. The insides weren't really so pretty. All the wear areas really were wearing. Bearings, rings, cylinder walls, guides, etc. did not look so good.
Truth was the oil stood up really well and did not break down, Just like Mobil said. The problem was that wear particles were suspended in that oil. The evidence was in the color of the oil. It was black and the particulates accelerated wear on contact surfaces.
Some of these new oils today are just as good as the original Mobil and there is little doubt we could run them a long time. Some long haul trucks go 100 k between oil changes, but those truck sumps hold 50 quarts and they rarely shut the motor off. They to use oil analysis to determine when the oil needs changing.
If these oils are so great how come we don't just change half the oil in the motor? Thats what you guys are suggesting with your transmissions.
Changing transmission fluid in the F is easy and will only take a couple of hours. 60,000 miles is plenty for any transmission fluid, so change it.
Loren
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12-26-15, 02:20 PM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
I plan on having them try to replace what they can at 60k when they do the plugs. MAny have stated that the dealer says its sealed and will just change whats in the pan. LOL I'll take what I can get
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12-28-15, 12:48 PM
#9
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
And I have oil analysis from Blackstone indicating what Loren says is fear mongering.
I too have many years of building engines and have seen lots of good and bad come down the pike. I also do not believe the WS fluid is forever, but I am convinced enough to know it isn't necessary to change it until the UOA says it's not good.
No decent sized diesel generator set has it's oil changed based on anything other than UOA. No diesel powered ship changes oil based on anything other than UOA. And yes, Loren is right, wear metals turn good oil into a very fine grinding paste over time. But knowing when that point occurs is the key to changing the fluid, not x number of miles. If I were towing, it surely wouldn't be x, it might very well be x/5. And all of this is predicated on knowing how you are using the machine and sending routine samples for analysis.
If you want to feel good about yourself, you can change it based on principle, but there is no guarantee it will make the transmission last significantly longer than analyzing the oil and changing it when it is truly full of wear metals, or no longer has the required viscosity to work correctly.
Further empirical evidence can be found right on this forum. The AA80E remanufacturing facility in the US put their core transmissions on eBay and sold them because they had too many. BRAND NEW gearboxes with zero miles on them for less than $1,000 each. That speaks volumes about the gearbox in service - they just don't die very often. Not enough to keep any large quantity on hand.
So I'll trust my UOA and I'll change out my fluid when I get a bad sample result and not before.
Last but not least, there is no way you could swap out the fluid and properly adjust the level in a couple of hours. You could likely put back the same amount you took out, but so far my experience is, the fluid level adjustment is critical to proper operation. If it is even a little bit low, the transmission will flare mercilessly especially when cold. The difference between just a little low and just right is pretty alarming. If your gearbox is not shifting the way you think it should be shifting, I'd bet a stack of Benjamins the level is low.
I too have many years of building engines and have seen lots of good and bad come down the pike. I also do not believe the WS fluid is forever, but I am convinced enough to know it isn't necessary to change it until the UOA says it's not good.
No decent sized diesel generator set has it's oil changed based on anything other than UOA. No diesel powered ship changes oil based on anything other than UOA. And yes, Loren is right, wear metals turn good oil into a very fine grinding paste over time. But knowing when that point occurs is the key to changing the fluid, not x number of miles. If I were towing, it surely wouldn't be x, it might very well be x/5. And all of this is predicated on knowing how you are using the machine and sending routine samples for analysis.
If you want to feel good about yourself, you can change it based on principle, but there is no guarantee it will make the transmission last significantly longer than analyzing the oil and changing it when it is truly full of wear metals, or no longer has the required viscosity to work correctly.
Further empirical evidence can be found right on this forum. The AA80E remanufacturing facility in the US put their core transmissions on eBay and sold them because they had too many. BRAND NEW gearboxes with zero miles on them for less than $1,000 each. That speaks volumes about the gearbox in service - they just don't die very often. Not enough to keep any large quantity on hand.
So I'll trust my UOA and I'll change out my fluid when I get a bad sample result and not before.
Last but not least, there is no way you could swap out the fluid and properly adjust the level in a couple of hours. You could likely put back the same amount you took out, but so far my experience is, the fluid level adjustment is critical to proper operation. If it is even a little bit low, the transmission will flare mercilessly especially when cold. The difference between just a little low and just right is pretty alarming. If your gearbox is not shifting the way you think it should be shifting, I'd bet a stack of Benjamins the level is low.
12-28-15, 04:56 PM
#10
And I have oil analysis from Blackstone indicating what Loren says is fear mongering.
I too have many years of building engines and have seen lots of good and bad come down the pike. I also do not believe the WS fluid is forever, but I am convinced enough to know it isn't necessary to change it until the UOA says it's not good.
No decent sized diesel generator set has it's oil changed based on anything other than UOA. No diesel powered ship changes oil based on anything other than UOA. And yes, Loren is right, wear metals turn good oil into a very fine grinding paste over time. But knowing when that point occurs is the key to changing the fluid, not x number of miles. If I were towing, it surely wouldn't be x, it might very well be x/5. And all of this is predicated on knowing how you are using the machine and sending routine samples for analysis.
If you want to feel good about yourself, you can change it based on principle, but there is no guarantee it will make the transmission last significantly longer than analyzing the oil and changing it when it is truly full of wear metals, or no longer has the required viscosity to work correctly.
Further empirical evidence can be found right on this forum. The AA80E remanufacturing facility in the US put their core transmissions on eBay and sold them because they had too many. BRAND NEW gearboxes with zero miles on them for less than $1,000 each. That speaks volumes about the gearbox in service - they just don't die very often. Not enough to keep any large quantity on hand.
So I'll trust my UOA and I'll change out my fluid when I get a bad sample result and not before.
Last but not least, there is no way you could swap out the fluid and properly adjust the level in a couple of hours. You could likely put back the same amount you took out, but so far my experience is, the fluid level adjustment is critical to proper operation. If it is even a little bit low, the transmission will flare mercilessly especially when cold. The difference between just a little low and just right is pretty alarming. If your gearbox is not shifting the way you think it should be shifting, I'd bet a stack of Benjamins the level is low.
I too have many years of building engines and have seen lots of good and bad come down the pike. I also do not believe the WS fluid is forever, but I am convinced enough to know it isn't necessary to change it until the UOA says it's not good.
No decent sized diesel generator set has it's oil changed based on anything other than UOA. No diesel powered ship changes oil based on anything other than UOA. And yes, Loren is right, wear metals turn good oil into a very fine grinding paste over time. But knowing when that point occurs is the key to changing the fluid, not x number of miles. If I were towing, it surely wouldn't be x, it might very well be x/5. And all of this is predicated on knowing how you are using the machine and sending routine samples for analysis.
If you want to feel good about yourself, you can change it based on principle, but there is no guarantee it will make the transmission last significantly longer than analyzing the oil and changing it when it is truly full of wear metals, or no longer has the required viscosity to work correctly.
Further empirical evidence can be found right on this forum. The AA80E remanufacturing facility in the US put their core transmissions on eBay and sold them because they had too many. BRAND NEW gearboxes with zero miles on them for less than $1,000 each. That speaks volumes about the gearbox in service - they just don't die very often. Not enough to keep any large quantity on hand.
So I'll trust my UOA and I'll change out my fluid when I get a bad sample result and not before.
Last but not least, there is no way you could swap out the fluid and properly adjust the level in a couple of hours. You could likely put back the same amount you took out, but so far my experience is, the fluid level adjustment is critical to proper operation. If it is even a little bit low, the transmission will flare mercilessly especially when cold. The difference between just a little low and just right is pretty alarming. If your gearbox is not shifting the way you think it should be shifting, I'd bet a stack of Benjamins the level is low.
So what will happen if the fluid is slightly overfilled then. Say you remove 3 quarts from the pan and filled 3.25 or per say 3.5.
12-28-15, 08:55 PM
#11
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
No idea what will happen. I can only say what happens when it is low from experience.
12-28-15, 09:41 PM
#12
If you're ever driven a manual transmission car, I'd say it's most similar to a slipping clutch. When you press on the gas, the RPM will shoot up a few hundred RPM while at the same time not really accelerating. It'll then "catch" and the RPM will drop down and you'll start gaining power. My car (which also has 60k miles) has the cold flare. It also flares when it's warm and when going down hill (at times, not always). I have an appointment with Lexus of Riverside to get my trans fluid checked. If they find it low, they're going to help add some fluid. I'm probably going to tell them to also extract some so that I could send a sample to Blackstone.
Of all the dealers I called in the greater Los Angeles area, Lexus of Riverside, and specifically Erik Smith (SA) seemed to be the most knowledgeable about the trans issue I described, and the most knowledgable when it came down to the actual procedures for the fluid check/fill. Most SA were telling me it would only take 2 hours for the check and were asking way more than what Erik was asking. For reference, he asked for less than 200, while the other dealers (which seemed to have no idea about the complexity of the procedures) was asking for 350+. If you're in SoCal, I suggest giving that dealer a call and asking for Erik. Or, you can wait for my results. I have my appointment schedule for January 14th.
Of all the dealers I called in the greater Los Angeles area, Lexus of Riverside, and specifically Erik Smith (SA) seemed to be the most knowledgeable about the trans issue I described, and the most knowledgable when it came down to the actual procedures for the fluid check/fill. Most SA were telling me it would only take 2 hours for the check and were asking way more than what Erik was asking. For reference, he asked for less than 200, while the other dealers (which seemed to have no idea about the complexity of the procedures) was asking for 350+. If you're in SoCal, I suggest giving that dealer a call and asking for Erik. Or, you can wait for my results. I have my appointment schedule for January 14th.
12-29-15, 12:53 PM
#13
Lance, you say I'm "fear mongering", when actually I'm lazy and cheap. Read my post.
I'm with the Toyota truck guys and I'm sure they beat on their trucks pretty hard. The V 8 trucks have a transmission similar to the F.
8 or 9 quarts of Toyota WS transmission fluid (not much over $90.00) Follow the truck procedure using the oil line going TO the transmission cooler to drain into a graduated milk jug. I usually drain and refill the pan first. Refill as required. I would measure what I took out and add 1/2 quart before leveling the car and using the checking procedure. No analysis, no "fear mongering" and no BS and you can go another 60,000 miles knowing you've done it right.
Also worrying about 1/4 to a 1/2 of a quart overfill is "romance BS". I was a auto dealer and some of the BS our employees told customers left us all in stitches. We tried to service our customers but were primarily about selling cars.
Now can someone else figure out a simpler, cheaper way to care for the transmission. Also, I have no problem with Blackstone's oil analysis, I just think its to much work and generally better suited to big rigs that are constantly in use.
Loren
I'm with the Toyota truck guys and I'm sure they beat on their trucks pretty hard. The V 8 trucks have a transmission similar to the F.
8 or 9 quarts of Toyota WS transmission fluid (not much over $90.00) Follow the truck procedure using the oil line going TO the transmission cooler to drain into a graduated milk jug. I usually drain and refill the pan first. Refill as required. I would measure what I took out and add 1/2 quart before leveling the car and using the checking procedure. No analysis, no "fear mongering" and no BS and you can go another 60,000 miles knowing you've done it right.
Also worrying about 1/4 to a 1/2 of a quart overfill is "romance BS". I was a auto dealer and some of the BS our employees told customers left us all in stitches. We tried to service our customers but were primarily about selling cars.
Now can someone else figure out a simpler, cheaper way to care for the transmission. Also, I have no problem with Blackstone's oil analysis, I just think its to much work and generally better suited to big rigs that are constantly in use.
Loren
12-30-15, 09:18 AM
#14
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
I just took a look at TIS to see the procedure you referred to in your post. It is not there. The only procedure for "replacement" of the ATF is a pan drain and refill with 2.2 US quarts of WS. That's for all five possible transmissions in the 2012 Tundra. That's approximately a 20% change.
Given Blackstone's results with my fluid, a 20% change might be just fine if you are worried about your fluid. Most often the additive package is what dies in the oil, and a 20% swap might be enough additive replenishment to make a significant difference. I'd bet that's what Toyota is thinking with the Tundra procedure.
If you poke around the web about doing a full change, you'll find some pretty strong arguments against disconnecting the cooler line and using it as an exchange. The method I like the best is called a Powerflush:
Second best I like this:
The argument against using the cooler lines is you are inherently mixing new and old while the fluid is being filtered by the existing filter. You can minimize the risk by dropping the pan and changing the filter before you disconnect the cooler lines, but you'll still be mixing old and new so you have to use more fluid to get a full change. The upside to both is you will get a pretty significant change in the torque converter, and it is the largest single storage point for fluid in the system.
The other thing about this is, when you do any exchange, you need to stroke the shifter from P to D repeatedly to remove the old fluid from the valve body. If you don't actuate the solenoids during the process, you will still have old fluid in the valve body. So, if the goal is as close to 100% as possible, there's a lot of work to be done. I think it's a whole lot easier just to pull a sample, send it to Blackstone, and properly adjust the level. If Blackstone says it has turned to crap, then go to all the grief of changing it, but not until it is truly at the end of its service life.
Given Blackstone's results with my fluid, a 20% change might be just fine if you are worried about your fluid. Most often the additive package is what dies in the oil, and a 20% swap might be enough additive replenishment to make a significant difference. I'd bet that's what Toyota is thinking with the Tundra procedure.
If you poke around the web about doing a full change, you'll find some pretty strong arguments against disconnecting the cooler line and using it as an exchange. The method I like the best is called a Powerflush:
The Powerflush machine attaches to the pump intake after the pan and filter are removed. This machine supplies only fresh new fluid to the pump intake and uses the transmissions pump to move the fluid through. The fluid passes through the transmission and dumps into a collection tray, and never goes back into the transmission. All of the old fluid is gone and replaced with fresh new fluid.
The typical flush machine connects to the transmission cooler lines. The flush machine carries new fluid to the line going through cooler. On the flush machine is a chamber on the machine with a diaphragm, and the top part of the chamber above the diaphragm is filled with new fluid. The engine is started, which turns the torque converter and the input shaft on the transmission. The input shaft turns the transmission pump creating hydraulic pressure which forces fluid to flow through the cooler line. As fluid leaves the cooler line, it enters the chamber on the flush machine. As the old fluid side of the diaphragm fills, it pushes the diaphragm up and forces new fresh fluid into the transmission. After a while, the old fluid is collected in the machine and it is replaced by new fluid.
The other thing about this is, when you do any exchange, you need to stroke the shifter from P to D repeatedly to remove the old fluid from the valve body. If you don't actuate the solenoids during the process, you will still have old fluid in the valve body. So, if the goal is as close to 100% as possible, there's a lot of work to be done. I think it's a whole lot easier just to pull a sample, send it to Blackstone, and properly adjust the level. If Blackstone says it has turned to crap, then go to all the grief of changing it, but not until it is truly at the end of its service life.
12-30-15, 10:29 AM
#15
Lance and others,
Thanks for your comments.
My F has too few miles on it for a transmission fluid change, but I have two LS 430's (02 & 03 that require Toyota type IV fluid) and have done both of them. The 03 fluid was quite dark at 70,000 miles especially when I drained it. I followed the procedure outlined above and refilled as I suggested. The fluid color after the procedure was fine and it seemed to me that the transmission shifted better.
The 02 LS was a different matter. I bought the car from a seventy five year old lady who thought the car, at 65,000 miles, was worn out. Lexus had drained the pan twice and a local shop had flushed the transmission using a fluid flushing machine. There was a pile of invoices indicating lots of "preventive maintenance". I was curious and decided to base line the car my way so I changed the fluids and redid most of "their" work. Found some curious issues but, now the car runs and shifts fine and I'm sure will do so for another 60,000 miles.
Nothing more to say, except that the procedures I've used on Lexus and other cars have worked well for me.
Loren
Thanks for your comments.
My F has too few miles on it for a transmission fluid change, but I have two LS 430's (02 & 03 that require Toyota type IV fluid) and have done both of them. The 03 fluid was quite dark at 70,000 miles especially when I drained it. I followed the procedure outlined above and refilled as I suggested. The fluid color after the procedure was fine and it seemed to me that the transmission shifted better.
The 02 LS was a different matter. I bought the car from a seventy five year old lady who thought the car, at 65,000 miles, was worn out. Lexus had drained the pan twice and a local shop had flushed the transmission using a fluid flushing machine. There was a pile of invoices indicating lots of "preventive maintenance". I was curious and decided to base line the car my way so I changed the fluids and redid most of "their" work. Found some curious issues but, now the car runs and shifts fine and I'm sure will do so for another 60,000 miles.
Nothing more to say, except that the procedures I've used on Lexus and other cars have worked well for me.
Loren