Am I being unrealistic with my expectations when buying a used ISF?
11-20-15, 03:25 PM
#106
Driver
Thread Starter
Believe me, I'm not trying to swoop in and steal these cars. I want everyone to get a fair deal. I hate it when client's low ball me so I'm definitely not into that. However, I'm not going to over pay either. Yes, these cars are rare, but the number of people that want them and/or can afford them, especially the 2012-2014 cars are VERY far and few between.
I do ask a lot of questions about the car, but it's all up front in my first email contact to them. Once they verify the condition sounds promising, then I want to talk numbers. I need to do this because I'm using my bank for a loan and I need a price. I am pretty direct, but I'm very nice and extremely professional. I don't want to waste their time and I certainly don't want them wasting my time playing the dealer games. I'm willing to entertain having them beat my bank's loan rates, but beyond that, I don't want any add-ons from them.
The problem I'm seeing is that many of these dealers have never had a used ISF on their lot. Many think it's some super desirable car. It's really not. It's too expensive to the majority and no one really knows squat about Lexus building the thing. Dealers simply don't want to listen to me about how they're being unreasonable on the price asking above KBB and NADA values. In the end, they'll be lucky to get KBB value and most likely, the car will be sold well below that or sold at auction.
That $55,000 2013 ISF at McGrath I was going to buy has been on a dealer auction site since mid-October for $53,000. I also know they paid $45,300 for the car at Manheim auction in Ohio. LOL I have connections to the dealer world. Draw your conclusions about that Lexus dealer. I'll be writing my review of them and my experience soon enough on numerous websites. I won't be inflammatory but I will tell my story and offer some warning to do your due diligence.
I do ask a lot of questions about the car, but it's all up front in my first email contact to them. Once they verify the condition sounds promising, then I want to talk numbers. I need to do this because I'm using my bank for a loan and I need a price. I am pretty direct, but I'm very nice and extremely professional. I don't want to waste their time and I certainly don't want them wasting my time playing the dealer games. I'm willing to entertain having them beat my bank's loan rates, but beyond that, I don't want any add-ons from them.
The problem I'm seeing is that many of these dealers have never had a used ISF on their lot. Many think it's some super desirable car. It's really not. It's too expensive to the majority and no one really knows squat about Lexus building the thing. Dealers simply don't want to listen to me about how they're being unreasonable on the price asking above KBB and NADA values. In the end, they'll be lucky to get KBB value and most likely, the car will be sold well below that or sold at auction.
That $55,000 2013 ISF at McGrath I was going to buy has been on a dealer auction site since mid-October for $53,000. I also know they paid $45,300 for the car at Manheim auction in Ohio. LOL I have connections to the dealer world. Draw your conclusions about that Lexus dealer. I'll be writing my review of them and my experience soon enough on numerous websites. I won't be inflammatory but I will tell my story and offer some warning to do your due diligence.
Last edited by XutvJet; 11-20-15 at 03:59 PM.
11-21-15, 04:49 PM
#107
The only third party Chicago inspection firm I'd trust in Chicago would have cost me $400 and they couldn't inspect the car in time. Based on everything McGrath was telling me (ie "we saw no overspray, no damage anywhere") plus the fact that they're a Lexus dealer (ie figured they were honest and capable), I took the risk of flying because I honestly thought the car would be mostly perfect and definitely not wrecked goods. Lesson learned.
I caution anyone looking at these cars that if they're acquired from auction, it is quite likely the car has been wrecked. This is based on personnel experience and friend's experiences as well. Lots of dealers buy wrecked cars at auction at a discount and fix them at their own shop.
I caution anyone looking at these cars that if they're acquired from auction, it is quite likely the car has been wrecked. This is based on personnel experience and friend's experiences as well. Lots of dealers buy wrecked cars at auction at a discount and fix them at their own shop.
The irony is most of the time dealing with a high end dealership is more "safe" than a private party but I guess not in this case. I think with the floor of internet and online sales, many dealers try to cut corners, too bad.
Just remember everything happens for a reason. The right car will pop up with patience.
11-21-15, 11:49 PM
#109
I was in your shoes all through 2012 when I was looking for mine, they didn't care what was fair and what was a "good deal". These conversations ended very quickly. Forget them taking of 5K off the price, you may as well not buy an IS-F. They will not even take $1000 off. I've been in that game with them with used IS-F's and a new IS-F.
After that lesson, I got a call about a NGB IS-F arriving on the ship and I took it home as soon as it got to the dealership.
I remember shopping for an IS-250 with this girl I was dating, she soon found out the dealers don't really negotiate on these cars. She found a 2011 IS-250 and bought it for about $250 under the asking price, after we looked at 10 different IS cars in 5 different dealerships.
At this point, it is a take it or leave proposition.
11-23-15, 01:35 PM
#110
For anyone that's interested, I just traded in my 2008 SFP over black IS-F at Earnhardt Lexus in Scottsdale, AZ. I don't know what they'll ask for it, but it's got just over 40k on the clock and is in showroom condition - not a single scratch, chip, ding, nothing (no one's ever even sat in the back seat). I've babied it its whole life; hope she finds a good home, preferably with one of my CL brethren.
12-10-15, 10:54 AM
#111
Driver
Thread Starter
So after LOTS of thinking and numerous 2013-2014 ISFs I considered, three of which I had put deposits on, I decided I just couldn't part with driving a manual or buying a used car. So many of these ISFs I was looking at had minor blemishes, some had been wrecked, and others had questionable histories. It's hard for me to hang my hat on a used car considering that I was going to be spending $49-52K on one of these cars. If it was a $30K car, I wouldn't think twice. $49K+? Ehhhhh....
Last weekend I ended up test driving a BMW M235 which is a car I had been eyeballing for a year. I feel in love. It's so connected, pretty dang quick, refined, amazing seats and great overall feel. It comes standard with adaptive suspension and a host of other things that I couldn't get on the ISF. The ISF is definitely the faster/quicker car in stock form. Handling is about the same. Oddly, rear legroom is about the same too.
I drove the 8 speed auto because none of the dealers stock 6MTs. The 8 speed is wicked. It's truly an amazing auto. It has lightning quick up and downshifts, dare I say quicker than the ISF's. In automatic "Sport/Sport+" mode, it's telepathic in selecting the right gears while under braking and G-loads. With the paddle shifters, you can grab a 3 gear downshift almost instantly.
The seats are amazing. Fully adjustable including lateral and thigh support. This is the only car I've driven that the steering wheel can get too close to me at full extension. It will be great for hand/arm placement in auto-x and the like.
Most importantly, there is plenty of room in the back for the kids. I'm a bit over 6' 1" and have a 34" inseam. I set the driver's seat where I needed then climbed behind it. It was tight for me, but I could ride back there across town no problem. My head was on the ceiling, but there will be another 1.5" with the moonroof delete. My 4 foot tall, 50lb daughter will have no issues sitting behind me. My 11 y/o 5 foot tall son wouldn't either. I'm really amazed by how roomy the car is on the inside considering it's subcompact exterior size.
After thinking and thinking about it, I decided I still want the 6MT even though it's the slower car. I'm not nearly has concerned about speed anymore as I am the driving involvement and per reviews, the 6MT is one of the better ones BMW has done in recent years. My future Cayman (~5 years from now) will be a PDK therefore I didn't want a garage full of autos.
I've ordered the following M235i:
- Mineral white
- Rear wheel drive
- Coral Dakota Red leather
- Cold Weather Package (heated seats, headlight washers, heated steering wheel)
- Driver Assistance Package (parking sensors and rear camera and assist features)
- Harman Kardon stereo
- 6 speed
- Moonroof delete
It should be here in 8 to 12 weeks. Overall, I've saved about $3K-$4K going with the new M235 vs a 2013-2014 ISF.
The German reliability factor does scare me a bit. Luckily the N55 turbo motor is fairly reliable, the transmission is solid, and the suspension and brakes are simple and easy to work on. My M235 isn't loaded with tech so that should help reduce long term cost potential. I hope....
Last weekend I ended up test driving a BMW M235 which is a car I had been eyeballing for a year. I feel in love. It's so connected, pretty dang quick, refined, amazing seats and great overall feel. It comes standard with adaptive suspension and a host of other things that I couldn't get on the ISF. The ISF is definitely the faster/quicker car in stock form. Handling is about the same. Oddly, rear legroom is about the same too.
I drove the 8 speed auto because none of the dealers stock 6MTs. The 8 speed is wicked. It's truly an amazing auto. It has lightning quick up and downshifts, dare I say quicker than the ISF's. In automatic "Sport/Sport+" mode, it's telepathic in selecting the right gears while under braking and G-loads. With the paddle shifters, you can grab a 3 gear downshift almost instantly.
The seats are amazing. Fully adjustable including lateral and thigh support. This is the only car I've driven that the steering wheel can get too close to me at full extension. It will be great for hand/arm placement in auto-x and the like.
Most importantly, there is plenty of room in the back for the kids. I'm a bit over 6' 1" and have a 34" inseam. I set the driver's seat where I needed then climbed behind it. It was tight for me, but I could ride back there across town no problem. My head was on the ceiling, but there will be another 1.5" with the moonroof delete. My 4 foot tall, 50lb daughter will have no issues sitting behind me. My 11 y/o 5 foot tall son wouldn't either. I'm really amazed by how roomy the car is on the inside considering it's subcompact exterior size.
After thinking and thinking about it, I decided I still want the 6MT even though it's the slower car. I'm not nearly has concerned about speed anymore as I am the driving involvement and per reviews, the 6MT is one of the better ones BMW has done in recent years. My future Cayman (~5 years from now) will be a PDK therefore I didn't want a garage full of autos.
I've ordered the following M235i:
- Mineral white
- Rear wheel drive
- Coral Dakota Red leather
- Cold Weather Package (heated seats, headlight washers, heated steering wheel)
- Driver Assistance Package (parking sensors and rear camera and assist features)
- Harman Kardon stereo
- 6 speed
- Moonroof delete
It should be here in 8 to 12 weeks. Overall, I've saved about $3K-$4K going with the new M235 vs a 2013-2014 ISF.
The German reliability factor does scare me a bit. Luckily the N55 turbo motor is fairly reliable, the transmission is solid, and the suspension and brakes are simple and easy to work on. My M235 isn't loaded with tech so that should help reduce long term cost potential. I hope....
12-10-15, 11:17 AM
#112
You will find the right one patience is key with these rare cars, just keep looking. I looked for close to a year and while I gave up looking for the color I wanted, one popped up out of no where and I snatched it within a week of posting. And I got a good deal on it and best of all I didn't have to fly 1-2k miles away it was an hour drive away.
nvm looks like you got the m.
nvm looks like you got the m.
Last edited by k20trick; 12-10-15 at 11:26 AM.
12-10-15, 12:38 PM
#115
Driver
Thread Starter
I am super picky when it comes to spending $49K+ on a used car. I pretty much want it damage free. I can tolerate some really minor wear on the door panels and rock chips on the front bumper and hood, but beyond that, it's difficult to accept.
I am amazed at how much damage and wear people manage to inflict on a 12 to 20 month old car. My daily driven nearly 4 y/o WRX doesn't have a scratch or dent. Just rock chips. The interior doesn't have any scratches and the leather shows hardly any wear. You'd think people buying $60K+ cars would treat them better.
I still have a very big spot in my heart for the ISF. Simply an amazing car. It was a very difficult decision not going forward with the purchase. Ultimately, the automatic is what killed the deal. I know it's amazing when in sport/manual mode, but in normal driving it's a bit blah and laggy. It reminded me WAY TOO much of my G35 auto which I owned for 7 years. It became apparent that I wasn't ready to give up a manual. I like the connection and would get bored snapping away at paddle shifters (which my G had for the last 4 years of ownership).
12-10-15, 03:12 PM
#116
For anyone that's interested, I just traded in my 2008 SFP over black IS-F at Earnhardt Lexus in Scottsdale, AZ. I don't know what they'll ask for it, but it's got just over 40k on the clock and is in showroom condition - not a single scratch, chip, ding, nothing (no one's ever even sat in the back seat). I've babied it its whole life; hope she finds a good home, preferably with one of my CL brethren.
12-10-15, 03:41 PM
#117
Pole Position
Bimmers to me are boring and dime a dozen, I see them EVERYWHERE here in the bay area and I haven't really been impressed with any of their products since the 2000 model year M5..
12-10-15, 03:52 PM
#118
Pole Position
Ultimately, the automatic is what killed the deal. I know it's amazing when in sport/manual mode, but in normal driving it's a bit blah and laggy. It reminded me WAY TOO much of my G35 auto which I owned for 7 years. It became apparent that I wasn't ready to give up a manual. I like the connection and would get bored snapping away at paddle shifters (which my G had for the last 4 years of ownership).
However to your auto response, did you mention earlier in the thread you never really " drove the car as it was intended to" with the test drives you were on or something like that? Because I feel your assessment is inaccurate. The regular driving mode is more that suitable for any around town driving and doesn't show any lag. We are driving a lexus not a Ferrari. If you want lag drive a ford Taurus and tell me how awesome that experience is Lol..
As I told you in an earlier post I don't even drive in normal mode unless my wife is with me and you probably would have done the same. The car is just too much fun in sport manual mode..and I honestly like it in normal when I want to take it easy.
I ( again my opinion) feel you shortchanged yourself with buying an ISF based on some of the critical assessments on the car you made over the course of your search. I have driven manual cars for the last 20 years ( and I remember saying I would never drive an auto car) I was young :P This car was perfect for me and I don't miss driving a manual especially as my daily.
Good luck and keep us posted on how it working out for you.
Token
Last edited by Tokenblkgy; 12-10-15 at 03:56 PM.
12-12-15, 07:42 PM
#120
Believe me, I'm not trying to swoop in and steal these cars. I want everyone to get a fair deal. I hate it when client's low ball me so I'm definitely not into that. However, I'm not going to over pay either. Yes, these cars are rare, but the number of people that want them and/or can afford them, especially the 2012-2014 cars are VERY far and few between.
I do ask a lot of questions about the car, but it's all up front in my first email contact to them. Once they verify the condition sounds promising, then I want to talk numbers. I need to do this because I'm using my bank for a loan and I need a price. I am pretty direct, but I'm very nice and extremely professional. I don't want to waste their time and I certainly don't want them wasting my time playing the dealer games. I'm willing to entertain having them beat my bank's loan rates, but beyond that, I don't want any add-ons from them.
The problem I'm seeing is that many of these dealers have never had a used ISF on their lot. Many think it's some super desirable car. It's really not. It's too expensive to the majority and no one really knows squat about Lexus building the thing. Dealers simply don't want to listen to me about how they're being unreasonable on the price asking above KBB and NADA values. In the end, they'll be lucky to get KBB value and most likely, the car will be sold well below that or sold at auction.
That $55,000 2013 ISF at McGrath I was going to buy has been on a dealer auction site since mid-October for $53,000. I also know they paid $45,300 for the car at Manheim auction in Ohio. LOL I have connections to the dealer world. Draw your conclusions about that Lexus dealer. I'll be writing my review of them and my experience soon enough on numerous websites. I won't be inflammatory but I will tell my story and offer some warning to do your due diligence.
I do ask a lot of questions about the car, but it's all up front in my first email contact to them. Once they verify the condition sounds promising, then I want to talk numbers. I need to do this because I'm using my bank for a loan and I need a price. I am pretty direct, but I'm very nice and extremely professional. I don't want to waste their time and I certainly don't want them wasting my time playing the dealer games. I'm willing to entertain having them beat my bank's loan rates, but beyond that, I don't want any add-ons from them.
The problem I'm seeing is that many of these dealers have never had a used ISF on their lot. Many think it's some super desirable car. It's really not. It's too expensive to the majority and no one really knows squat about Lexus building the thing. Dealers simply don't want to listen to me about how they're being unreasonable on the price asking above KBB and NADA values. In the end, they'll be lucky to get KBB value and most likely, the car will be sold well below that or sold at auction.
That $55,000 2013 ISF at McGrath I was going to buy has been on a dealer auction site since mid-October for $53,000. I also know they paid $45,300 for the car at Manheim auction in Ohio. LOL I have connections to the dealer world. Draw your conclusions about that Lexus dealer. I'll be writing my review of them and my experience soon enough on numerous websites. I won't be inflammatory but I will tell my story and offer some warning to do your due diligence.
