When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
RR-Racing recently took the liberty of trying out Winmax pads and I jumped on the wagon as well.
I previously had project mu ns400.
Initial impressions: the bite is lightyears better than the project mu and better than OEM.
I opted for the W3 pads (RR-Racing has W4) which contain a low metallic compound. The project mu were purely ceramic and honestly didn't offer the bite I was looking for.
I had the project mu pads on new rotors and dot 3 oem fluid.
The Winmax were installed with ss stop tech lines and wilwood dot 4 600 fluid.
It is a night and day difference to the ns400. Slight modulation of the brake pedal and the car pulls your chest forward with exaggeration. I beat the brakes up and didn't feel any brake fade (the lines and fluid contribute to this as well).
My only complaint is the squeaking, but again, these pads were mated to 2 year old rotors so things aren't perfect. The noise, recently, has diminished but still exists (I'm going to grease up the shims a bit more).
Overall, I highly recommend opting for SS lines (oem rubberized lines expand under pressure and heat which results in brake fade) and Winmax pads (I recommend w3 and up--w1 and w2 do not contain metals). Great, fairly inexpensive upgrade from RR-Racing.
Also, if you care about brake dust, sell your performance car
We are a fan of Winmax pads as well but we haven't had too many orders for them. Maybe they will start to catch on. The only compounds we have really tested was their W4 and W5 compounds for track use but we were impressed at the value they offered in some pad shapes.
I do want to point out that your findings comparing the characteristics between a W3 and a PMU NS400 are to be expected as they are in two completely different categories. The W3 is a very aggressive street / light track pad that sacrifices quite a bit of civility on the street for daily use compared to the NS400. But the compromise with dust and noise levels allows it to achieve a more aggressive initial bite, more midrange torque and a higher maximum operating temp. Project Mu HC+, Ferodo DS2500 and Endless MX72 are the direct competitors to the Winmax W3 from the other brands we carry. Endless MX72 is the absolute king of this segment, offering the most amount of performance with the least amount of dust and noise but the cost tends to shy many away.
The Project Mu NS400 on the other hand is a pure street luxury pad with a primary goal of extremely low dust levels and noise free operation. It's direct competitor from Winmax is the W1 compound.
Thanks for the review.. I have a set of W4 pads on the way. I was going to go with W3, but they're currently out of stock and I don't want to risk waiting until next week to install them since it's so close to the track day. Besides, they'll be for track weekends only, so I can deal with some dust/noise for a week or so at a time. I'll likely try out the W2 for daily use when my NS400 pads are retired.
JDMV8--- Thank you for that review! Looking forward to your input following our Track Mega Meet on the 12th.
Once again, I want to thank you guys for buying from us and for your support.... We manufacture our own competition 2 piece rotors for the ISF, as well as titanium shims, rear 4 piston forged caliper upgrade, and we always working on new performance, braking and suspension products so stay tuned!
Your support helps us to develop new products for the ISF!
Thank You,
-Rafi
PS... those of you considering NS400 pads for the street -- we have Winmax W2's in stock, they are low dust, low noise, and have a higher temperature capability than NS400's.... not to mention our pricing is much lower than Project Mu.
ISF Competition 2 piece rotors -- fully floating steet/track rotors. 12lbs rotating weight savings per pair, NASCAR Winston Cup rotors, 360x32mm, and only $930
Titanium Shims - ISF Front Application -- highly recommended for track duty!
__________________
We Engineer Track Proven Upgrades For Your Lexus! SUPERCHARGERS : ECU TUNING : SUSPENSION : EXHAUST : PPE MASTER DEALER
Isn't it an unfair comparison to compare the performance of the project mu with OEM lines and fluid to the winmax pads with upgraded/high performance lines and fluid? SS brake lines that resist expansion and performance DOT4 fluid with a higher boiling point can really change the feel of a cars braking system by themselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Winmax are great pads, but I'm just curious how they compare... Apples to apples. Please note, I am not bias to either of these pads as I'm currently still running OEM pads.
The difference between braided stainless brake lines and OEM is tiny. I've built enough of them and installed them on all kinds of things and found if you just bleed the OEM system properly, you can't tell the difference. You'll never tell the difference between fluids at the pedal unless the out going fluid is horribly water saturated. If you compare one set without bleeding to another with bleeding you're very likely to notice a difference in pedal feel.
Isn't it an unfair comparison to compare the performance of the project mu with OEM lines and fluid to the winmax pads with upgraded/high performance lines and fluid? SS brake lines that resist expansion and performance DOT4 fluid with a higher boiling point can really change the feel of a cars braking system by themselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Winmax are great pads, but I'm just curious how they compare... Apples to apples. Please note, I am not bias to either of these pads as I'm currently still running OEM pads.
He is just giving his impressions of the differences. The NS400 pads, in my opinion are pure street pads that have no place on the track, especially given their relatively low max service temperature. That is something to consider depending on what you are doing with the car.
JDMV8's comment concerning the initial bite of the pad is completely a property of the pad. W3's, and even W2's bite harder than NS400's. He told me he bled the system last year with the same NS400 pads, so he has driven these pads with fresh fluid as well as a point of reference.
Regarding stainless steel brake lines. Some of our ISF's are nearing 8 years old. Stainless lines are both a relatively inexpensive performance upgrade AND a worthy preventative maintenance item. particularly for those of us who track our cars. OEM rubber lines dry and crack with age, especially for those of us who push our cars to the limit ( high hydraulic pressures combined with high temperatures).
Additionally, I might add that I've been selling stainless brake lines to my Mazda/Probe GT customers since 2001 -- These cars were produced from 1993-1997 and I have come across numerous instances of brake line failures and leakage around the connectors, particularly as the cars reached 8-10+ years.
We will be getting some W2 pads out to customers shortly, so that will be a more apples-to-apples review.
-Rafi
__________________
We Engineer Track Proven Upgrades For Your Lexus! SUPERCHARGERS : ECU TUNING : SUSPENSION : EXHAUST : PPE MASTER DEALER
Hi Rafi. Thanks for the info. I'm definitely not trying to be disrespectful, I just like to see comparisons done on an even playing field and it didn't seem like it was presented that way. When I upgraded the brake lines and fluid on my NSX, I felt a pretty big difference when pushing the car to the limit. Granted, I do understand that not all cars are made equal and a modification on one car may not have the same effect as the same mod on another car.
Anyway, I would like to say thank you for the time and dedication you have put into creating additional aftermarket support for the ISF.
Hi Rafi. Thanks for the info. I'm definitely not trying to be disrespectful, I just like to see comparisons done on an even playing field and it didn't seem like it was presented that way. When I upgraded the brake lines and fluid on my NSX, I felt a pretty big difference when pushing the car to the limit. Granted, I do understand that not all cars are made equal and a modification on one car may not have the same effect as the same mod on another car.
Anyway, I would like to say thank you for the time and dedication you have put into creating additional aftermarket support for the ISF.
No worries, I didn't take it that way. We all have our experiences, that's what these discussions are for. Lobuxracer doesn't offend me either:-)
I am just excited that we now have Winmax Japan on board with many new pad options for the ISF -- they are an amazing value for quality and performance that you get...
-Rafi
__________________
We Engineer Track Proven Upgrades For Your Lexus! SUPERCHARGERS : ECU TUNING : SUSPENSION : EXHAUST : PPE MASTER DEALER
not to mention our pricing is much lower than Project Mu.
Pretty sure everyone's pricing on everything is lower than P Mu, LOL!
I went with Porterfield R4S pads since that's a compound I was familiar with. Winmax seems to be growing in popularity, especially since they started bankrolling a large model-specific import forum in the last 2 years. The prices always seemed 'too' low you know?
The benefits of ss lines and new fluid is felt with extensive "spirited" driving.
After bedding in the pads (that was a nauseating experience), I immediatley felt the superior bite of these pads.
Only afterwards did I really test the full extent of upgrading the pads and lines by giving the ISF a good whooping--not signs of brake fade.
Lines and fluid are hallmark upgrades for longevity. The pads are what give the bite...
With RR-Racing pricing and quick service, it was a no brainer to upgrade the brakes for the NJMP track day
I don't know about SS lines Lance has posted some pretty strong statements concerning them in the past. My system with slotted rotors in the front coupled with Frerodo DS2500 pads and stock lines still feels and works awesome for me.
Lou
Originally Posted by lobuxracer
Better pedal from braided stainless lines is mythology, not fact. I've been using braided stainless teflon lines for brakes since I built my first set in 1980. There is no measurable difference in pedal when the lines are changed unless there was air previously in the system which was removed when the new lines were installed.
IOW, they're a waste of money. Trust me, the disappointment after putting all the work into building the lines connector by connector was enough to make me never consider them again unless they're cheaper than standard lines.
Originally Posted by lobuxracer
If you run braided lines on the street, you need to inspect them at least annually for broken strands in the braid. This is why I'm no big fan of braided brake lines. I worked on aircraft in the Air Force and I've done lots of inspections on braided lines. They give warning before they fail, but if you don't inspect them you won't see the warning signs and you'll have catastrophic failure if the braid is compromised.
I'm a HUGE fan of the OEM lines because they're lighter and stronger (yes, hard to believe, but they use kevlar under the rubber anti-chafing cover for lightness and strength) and they'll not fail in the same mode as braided stainless will.
And before anyone tries to call me a hater - I have braided lines on my Supra right now because they were cheaper than the OEM lines. I definitely inspect them annually. I've also put braided lines on nearly every motorcycle I've owned, and guess what? They made zero difference in feel. ZERO. So, the only reason to put these on is to impress yourself, impress your unknowledgeable friends, and force yourself to an annual inspection schedule. Personally, I wouldn't do it on a 2IS.
...Regarding stainless steel brake lines. Some of our ISF's are nearing 8 years old. Stainless lines are both a relatively inexpensive performance upgrade AND a worthy preventative maintenance item. particularly for those of us who track our cars. OEM rubber lines dry and crack with age, especially for those of us who push our cars to the limit ( high hydraulic pressures combined with high temperatures).
Additionally, I might add that I've been selling stainless brake lines to my Mazda/Probe GT customers since 2001 -- These cars were produced from 1993-1997 and I have come across numerous instances of brake line failures and leakage around the connectors, particularly as the cars reached 8-10+ years.
We will be getting some W2 pads out to customers shortly, so that will be a more apples-to-apples review.
-Rafi
I agree all brake lines need to be inspected, and if you track your car you should carefully inspect them at least once a season. I disagree they improve performance. As I said in my post about my Supra, teflon lined, braided stainless lines are on the car because they are cheaper than OEM and my original lines were quite old at the time, so I knew it would be prudent to replace them.
Lexus/Toyota/Scion all say replace the brake lines at 10 years. Anybody tracking their car should also realize their brakes are not being used in the standard way - the seals on the calipers in my Supra have never needed to be replaced, but the seals in my IS F have already been replaced once because they were cooked and literally falling apart.
Also, as I said previously, I read all the motorcycle magazines way back in the late 70's telling me how much better the braking is with braided stainless lines and how they are the hot ticket item. I got -3 hose and three piece Aeroquip connectors from the hydraulic shop on the base where I was stationed and built a full set of lines for my Honda 750 and for a couple of friends. We were all stoked about the idea of improving the feel of our brakes. But there was no difference when we swapped out the lines. None. Imagine all the work (if you've ever worked with -3 teflon hose, you know what I mean) only to find out there was no discernible difference. Add to it the warning from the guys in the hydraulic shop - you need to keep an eye on those things and if you get more than six breaks in a one inch stretch, it's time to replace the hose. Add to this, unless you put antichafing wrap around it, it slices through anything it comes in contact with. Including your hand if you are doing a blind inspection.
So, keep your eyes wide open before deciding this is an upgrade. It might make perfect sense from an economics perspective as it did on my Supra. It also might not.
09-01-15, 07:43 AM
Winmax brake pads review
Lance has posted some pretty strong statements concerning them in the past. My system with slotted rotors in the front coupled with Frerodo DS2500 pads and stock lines still feels and works awesome for me.