Question for Suspension Gurus
07-05-13, 10:31 AM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
Question for Suspension Gurus
I just ordered new tires for the ISF after a flat tire (low speed thank GOD). While changing these out I noticed how bad the inside of the tires have been wearing. Honestly I didn't know how bad these were until the flat. My fault for not doing a better job checking...
Is there anything I can do to correct this (Even a little) for the future? Yes the car is lowered on Tein Coilovers so I know the wear will be worse than a stock F. The car had Toms Front and rear Linkage braces installed on it when I purchased it, if that will help. I think this is more for stiffness rather than camber correction.
The Stance on the car appears fine, I don't see a large negative camber and the height is reasonable in my opinion. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My car is down right now for a few items at the paint shop so I figured now would be an ideal time to get the suspension dialed in.
I have also considered adding a front suspension cup kit to the car but my main concern here would be altering the alignment, camber etc. if I use this system. From what I understand with the Cup Kits you will align the car based on the anticipated driving height (lowest setting) then you are only altering the camber when using the system to enter or exit a tricky driveway, once the car is lowered back to the lowest setting the camber "Should" be correct again.
Pics below to reference. Thanks in advance for the help and suggestions.
Is there anything I can do to correct this (Even a little) for the future? Yes the car is lowered on Tein Coilovers so I know the wear will be worse than a stock F. The car had Toms Front and rear Linkage braces installed on it when I purchased it, if that will help. I think this is more for stiffness rather than camber correction.
The Stance on the car appears fine, I don't see a large negative camber and the height is reasonable in my opinion. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My car is down right now for a few items at the paint shop so I figured now would be an ideal time to get the suspension dialed in.
I have also considered adding a front suspension cup kit to the car but my main concern here would be altering the alignment, camber etc. if I use this system. From what I understand with the Cup Kits you will align the car based on the anticipated driving height (lowest setting) then you are only altering the camber when using the system to enter or exit a tricky driveway, once the car is lowered back to the lowest setting the camber "Should" be correct again.
Pics below to reference. Thanks in advance for the help and suggestions.
07-05-13, 11:44 AM
#4
Assuming those are the front tires then the front LCA rear bushing that Figs Engineering offers is currently the best fix for this issue. There is a long thread on this issue posted by Figs.
Other then that try to avoid lowering the front of the car to much.
Other then that try to avoid lowering the front of the car to much.
07-05-13, 12:16 PM
#5
Driver
Thread Starter
Thank you, I should clarify, the tire pics are from the front tires, rear have a slightly similar wear but not as bad as the front. Ill take a look at the Figs post. Thanks again.
07-06-13, 01:21 AM
#6
Lexus Champion
SpmMorrow and Murph...you guys are BOTH running 20s and you're lowered... OF COURSE YOUR TIRES ARE GONNA WEAR
TWO THINGS...Either your toe is way off...or you're running massive camber. Which I think the later is most likely not the case. Also you're lowered, and running 20s, so you're tires might be just a hair bigger, therefore making everything a little bit more out of spec.
Take your car to a QUALITY alignment shop, and they should be able to give you a print out like this, and tell you EVERYTHING about your car and why your tires are wearing the way they are as well as your options. In any case, even if your tires didn't have the inside wear, it's time to replace your tires. Your tires have crazy amounts of dry rot (dry cracking tires). Make sure you're buying "fresh" tires as all tires have a date in which they were produced. Don't buy tires that have been sitting around for years! Personally, I don't like Yokohamas at all.
Our cars have no caster adjustment and no rear camber adjustment (however, I think SPC makes a rear camber kit). FINAL THING...and what sucks is I forget what it exactly is, but you need to take it to a shop that has newer equipment to be able to handle something with the steering and steering angles or else you're going to get that little light come on in your dash.
Most of you know, but if you don't, my car is all stock, running stock tire sizes as well with no spacers. My front right caster is SLIGHTLY off because this is when I made a U-Turn and kissed the curb (I'm an idiot), so no way to fix that, but you can see it's only A HAIR out of spec. This is after about 8,000 miles of driving the car goes out of spec here in SoCal and wonderful LA traffic. The car has a STIFF suspension, but a SOFT alignment, therefore it's easy for it to go out of alignment. I take my car in usually every 6,000 to 8,000 miles for an alignment. I get 40,000 miles out of my extreme summer performance Bridgestone RE11 because my alignment is always good so i wear those babies down till they're pretty much slicks.
You can see for front you can have up to -1.5 degrees of camber, however, you can only have a range of 0.16 for your front toe, so it's very important that your toe is setup. If I remember correctly, from the factory the car isn't aligned very well. Rear camber is the same, however, the rear toe is setup a little bit different for acceleration.
TWO THINGS...Either your toe is way off...or you're running massive camber. Which I think the later is most likely not the case. Also you're lowered, and running 20s, so you're tires might be just a hair bigger, therefore making everything a little bit more out of spec.
Take your car to a QUALITY alignment shop, and they should be able to give you a print out like this, and tell you EVERYTHING about your car and why your tires are wearing the way they are as well as your options. In any case, even if your tires didn't have the inside wear, it's time to replace your tires. Your tires have crazy amounts of dry rot (dry cracking tires). Make sure you're buying "fresh" tires as all tires have a date in which they were produced. Don't buy tires that have been sitting around for years! Personally, I don't like Yokohamas at all.
Our cars have no caster adjustment and no rear camber adjustment (however, I think SPC makes a rear camber kit). FINAL THING...and what sucks is I forget what it exactly is, but you need to take it to a shop that has newer equipment to be able to handle something with the steering and steering angles or else you're going to get that little light come on in your dash.
Most of you know, but if you don't, my car is all stock, running stock tire sizes as well with no spacers. My front right caster is SLIGHTLY off because this is when I made a U-Turn and kissed the curb (I'm an idiot), so no way to fix that, but you can see it's only A HAIR out of spec. This is after about 8,000 miles of driving the car goes out of spec here in SoCal and wonderful LA traffic. The car has a STIFF suspension, but a SOFT alignment, therefore it's easy for it to go out of alignment. I take my car in usually every 6,000 to 8,000 miles for an alignment. I get 40,000 miles out of my extreme summer performance Bridgestone RE11 because my alignment is always good so i wear those babies down till they're pretty much slicks.
You can see for front you can have up to -1.5 degrees of camber, however, you can only have a range of 0.16 for your front toe, so it's very important that your toe is setup. If I remember correctly, from the factory the car isn't aligned very well. Rear camber is the same, however, the rear toe is setup a little bit different for acceleration.
Last edited by Just F Me; 07-06-13 at 01:38 AM.
07-06-13, 02:12 PM
#7
SpmMorrow and Murph...you guys are BOTH running 20s and you're lowered... OF COURSE YOUR TIRES ARE GONNA WEAR
TWO THINGS...Either your toe is way off...or you're running massive camber. Which I think the later is most likely not the case. Also you're lowered, and running 20s, so you're tires might be just a hair bigger, therefore making everything a little bit more out of spec.
Take your car to a QUALITY alignment shop, and they should be able to give you a print out like this, and tell you EVERYTHING about your car and why your tires are wearing the way they are as well as your options. In any case, even if your tires didn't have the inside wear, it's time to replace your tires. Your tires have crazy amounts of dry rot (dry cracking tires). Make sure you're buying "fresh" tires as all tires have a date in which they were produced. Don't buy tires that have been sitting around for years! Personally, I don't like Yokohamas at all.
Our cars have no caster adjustment and no rear camber adjustment (however, I think SPC makes a rear camber kit). FINAL THING...and what sucks is I forget what it exactly is, but you need to take it to a shop that has newer equipment to be able to handle something with the steering and steering angles or else you're going to get that little light come on in your dash.
TWO THINGS...Either your toe is way off...or you're running massive camber. Which I think the later is most likely not the case. Also you're lowered, and running 20s, so you're tires might be just a hair bigger, therefore making everything a little bit more out of spec.
Take your car to a QUALITY alignment shop, and they should be able to give you a print out like this, and tell you EVERYTHING about your car and why your tires are wearing the way they are as well as your options. In any case, even if your tires didn't have the inside wear, it's time to replace your tires. Your tires have crazy amounts of dry rot (dry cracking tires). Make sure you're buying "fresh" tires as all tires have a date in which they were produced. Don't buy tires that have been sitting around for years! Personally, I don't like Yokohamas at all.
Our cars have no caster adjustment and no rear camber adjustment (however, I think SPC makes a rear camber kit). FINAL THING...and what sucks is I forget what it exactly is, but you need to take it to a shop that has newer equipment to be able to handle something with the steering and steering angles or else you're going to get that little light come on in your dash.
Being lowered changes the geometry but that shouldn't be a huge problem with double wishbone suspension cars. (independent rear suspensions gain huge amounts of camber when lowered and severely impacts camber, macpherson fronts tend to have huge bumpsteer issues in the front when being lowered)
With that being said, our cars have front/rear camber kits made by various companies like spc and megan that can change our camber. Caster does not wear out the tires. We typically have two act that act on our suspension and changes how our tires are placed on the pavement.. toe and camber.
The problem here is either too much camber or the bushing (that Figs replaces) is worn out.
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07-06-13, 11:05 PM
#8
Lexus Champion
20's and being lowered does not mean anything. An alignment is an alignment. You can run 26" wheels and have the same same alignment. Alignment pertains to the suspension not the wheel. If you change your wheel you're going to have the same exact camber toe etc.
Being lowered changes the geometry but that shouldn't be a huge problem with double wishbone suspension cars. (independent rear suspensions gain huge amounts of camber when lowered and severely impacts camber, macpherson fronts tend to have huge bumpsteer issues in the front when being lowered)
With that being said, our cars have front/rear camber kits made by various companies like spc and megan that can change our camber. Caster does not wear out the tires. We typically have two act that act on our suspension and changes how our tires are placed on the pavement.. toe and camber.
The problem here is either too much camber or the bushing (that Figs replaces) is worn out.
Being lowered changes the geometry but that shouldn't be a huge problem with double wishbone suspension cars. (independent rear suspensions gain huge amounts of camber when lowered and severely impacts camber, macpherson fronts tend to have huge bumpsteer issues in the front when being lowered)
With that being said, our cars have front/rear camber kits made by various companies like spc and megan that can change our camber. Caster does not wear out the tires. We typically have two act that act on our suspension and changes how our tires are placed on the pavement.. toe and camber.
The problem here is either too much camber or the bushing (that Figs replaces) is worn out.
OP...From the factory, you'll only have so much adjustment until you have to get aftermarket kits to adjust your alignment. Go get an alignment...we can sit here all day speculating...but what for? Put your car on the rack and you'll see what's the deal.
07-06-13, 11:14 PM
#9
even with a lowered car, if you take the car to a good place, your tires shouldn't be anywhere near this bad.
I have buddies who run -4 camber and still have no/very small minimal wear on tires! The toe (like Just F Me) picture is the important thing. the ~ -1 camber he has is nothing since his toe is as close to zero as possible
I have buddies who run -4 camber and still have no/very small minimal wear on tires! The toe (like Just F Me) picture is the important thing. the ~ -1 camber he has is nothing since his toe is as close to zero as possible
07-07-13, 09:01 AM
#10
Lexus Champion
Most cars can handle up to 2 degrees of negative camber if the toe is set at zero. Also, it depends on how many miles. Maybe the TIRE can only handle 20-30k miles with -2 degrees of camber... It's all relative, but toe is a huge tire killer. Like my chart shows, the IS F can handle up to -1.5 degrees of negative camber, and -0.75 degrees is actually dead on to factory specs.
Spm...where do you live in CA? Socal? Hella Norcal?
Spm...where do you live in CA? Socal? Hella Norcal?
07-07-13, 11:02 AM
#12
Pat...you contradicted yourself in your statements. First you say having 20s and lowered doesn't mean anything, but then later you say being lowered changes geometry. Being lowered will change your geometry and it's exactly the problem he's having. It shouldn't be a huge problem and that's why the rest of the tire seems to be wearing OK, it's just that inside edge. Cars that have really bad toe, you can actually see the wear pattern is going in a diagonal direction.
OP...From the factory, you'll only have so much adjustment until you have to get aftermarket kits to adjust your alignment. Go get an alignment...we can sit here all day speculating...but what for? Put your car on the rack and you'll see what's the deal.
OP...From the factory, you'll only have so much adjustment until you have to get aftermarket kits to adjust your alignment. Go get an alignment...we can sit here all day speculating...but what for? Put your car on the rack and you'll see what's the deal.
His issue here is beyond the lowering and 20" wheels which you stated.. its simple neglect to reflect on what else needs to be adjusted (as with any suspension mod or after a certain amount of miles driven) to keep the suspension in optimal condition to wear the tires properly.
07-07-13, 03:17 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
It does change suspension gemoetry but i said "its not a huge issue with double wishbone cars". I have ran a car with -4 front camber and -6 rear camber once for 6 months with zero toe issues. I didn't contradict myself you just refused to read the last portion that you bolded.
OP, you can take your car here if you're in SoCal...
http://www.yelp.com/biz/daves-frame-...uery:alignment
07-08-13, 11:18 AM
#14
Driver
Thread Starter
The obvious is that you used someone that was competent on car alignments.
OP, you can take your car here if you're in SoCal...
http://www.yelp.com/biz/daves-frame-...uery:alignment
OP, you can take your car here if you're in SoCal...
http://www.yelp.com/biz/daves-frame-...uery:alignment
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