dasbuch

The following is true of any car these days, I'm not picking on the Lexus IS. Sadly it was true a decade ago and it's still true now. In the days of mobile phones, which will usually navigate fine enough by themselves, I've yet to see a more backwater mindset than I see from new car purchasers today.

Bought a car recently? Go look up the current value of your car with or without nav. If you are careful in how you select your options (key thing to remember, its easy to screw up), you'll realize that nav typically adds maybe a couple of hundred dollars to the overall value of your car (if not included with other options that add more).

This only goes to show the massive manufacturer markup on nav systems. You will pay something like $1000-2000 for a built in nav system in your car, yet if you decided to sell your car a month later with only 150 miles driven, you will get back about $200 for that nav system. What's worse, you probably don't even know what you paid for your nav system because it wasn't available as a separate option, you had to buy it as part of a package with a lot of other stuff you didn't really need. Thanks marketing department, you guys are great.

All these years later there is not a bigger profit margin item for dealers available. On top of that profit margin, they get a crazy royalty on the nut-busting map update prices. The updates that cost hundreds of dollars, yet do less than the cost of a portable unit that has lifetime map updates and costs less than a single Lexus update.

If you doubt any of this, simply go to any reputable site that displays resale value of your car and make sure you check value for configuration with or without nav.

So, how can this be fixed?

First of all make the nav systems worth owning. Most of them are such wonky turds that once you use them you'll go screaming to Walmart to purchase the first Garmin you see on sale. The built in ones in every car I've seen are horrible. The folks here that own them in the Lexus IS generally complain about it. It's a tool that should make your life more efficient, not gather complaints about inefficiency. Make them an option independent of other options (just like they will be evaluated independently upon resale). Make them reasonably priced! Paying several hundred dollars to have the same functionality any dooschwillow with a smartphone can download for free is probably not a good value proposition maybe?

The car industry has made almost zero progress in this area over the last 15 years or so, and it's because consumers line up like sheep to get the newest model "gimme it with the works cuz I wanna be the first with the new goodz and I want all the bells and whizzles". It's quite simply a matter of catering to mass idiocy, and the only way a difference can be made is to educate the masses to not succumb to the idiocy. Is my effort futile or what?

SCSurf

Valid argument and I agree. But there's also debate that it's a business. Why substantially improve a navigation system that costs thousands of dollar to research and develop and sell it for a minimal price? Same thing with the 3IS engine. If the majority of your consumer audience still pay for obsolete tech, why change it? You, as a manufacture, now make substantial profit.

dasbuch

Well the combustion engine is a technology that hasn't really changed dramatically in decades, and the one thing we know is that more power-output equates to lowered fuel economy, and the dynamics of this have not changed that much. The new turbo fad cashes in on the fact that most people haven't figured out that once the turbo kicks in, more fuel is expended, and that combined with the increased long-term maintenance issues with turbo, the cost savings there is only a myth. I watched this happen before in the 80's, its more like a fashion trend that comes in and out as the consumer seeks something new.

Contrast that with the technological progress that has occurred with GPS technology, smartphones and navigations in the last 15 years. MASSIVE by comparison. The cost to own and produce a GPS system for your car over 10-15 years has been reduced from roughly $1000 to less than $100 bucks. The same cost to produce and own a combustion engine has gone exactly in the opposite direction over the last 10, 20, 50 or 100 years. This is why the whole nav system scam makes no sense except at the fault of the naïve consumer willing to pay the premium for things they don't understand. That's the purpose of my message, to help them understand. What human being with an IQ over 50 wants a nav system with a map upgrade cost of a couple of hundred dollars when you can buy a far superior portable system with lifetime map updates for less?

Another point for purposes of this message. If you opted to put your "upgrade money" into the engine, you will see a much better return on your money on resale. Same is true for safety technology such as blindspot monitor, rear camera, etc. Look up car values and you'll confirm this is true. In some cases these other upgrades retain near 100% of their original value increase many years later. Yet nav systems are the ruse that so many suckers fall for. It costs a bundle on car sale and is almost worthless if not a liability when you sell it.

AMNss

I agree with you but the problem is that cars comes with packaged usually . For example I only wanted backup camera initially , but the package with a backup camera also contains the nav ! , so I don't have that much of a choice . These default packages are ordered by the delear with large quantities, and if I want special specs such as backup camera without nav the dealer will request almost the same amount of money for a car without nav ! and the car will take longer to arrive.
Anyway if the dealer orders the cars without nav I would agree with you 100% on not ordering the nav system .

Dark9t316

People buy cars with nav system cause it's either that or attach an ugly gps or phone to your car. Each car manufacture has their own nav system and only has x dollars to produce a product. Well what consumers end up getting most of the time is crap. I believe thru time, only a few companies will be in this space, as car companies will probably offer bring your own device, eg apple carplay. Companies that span their product agnostic of car brand will achieve greater scale of economy and produce a better product than any car companies can. Personally i cant wait until the day i can plug my own device into a car and have it be fully integrated.

dasbuch

There is no way having a cord that can be tucked between your seats looks as bad as the antiquated looking display of most of these nav systems. If they could get away with it, car manufacturers would prevent non-integrated phones from working at all and would sell you a number that looks like this for two grand:
http://gallery.nen.gov.uk/imagelarge652788-.html

Whats wrong with putting a battery operated Garmin with a beanbag mount on your dash the actual .001 of the time out of the year when you actually are driving in completely unfamiliar territory?

dasbuch

Yeah but its the fact that folks are willing to pay for the nav and take the loss to get the other things they want that creates the problem. Leads to a puck and a hump in the center console that's useless in a year, and removes a perfectly useful place to put a persons phone. It's almost like they are banking that by putting a nav system that looks and performs like it was created in 1989 in the car, and guaranteeing the map update chips are enough to make someone want to trade in the entire vehicle, they are guaranteeing people will only lease and thus get fleeced, paying 500 a month this year, 600 a month 2 years from now, then 800 a month etc just to drive the latest shiny vehicle without building equity in a vehicle they will keep for 10 years. Why would they want to keep it for 10 years when the damn map updates are 200 bucks every year.

The rapage of the consumer just astounds me.

Dark9t316

It's all wireless nowadays, the cars can retain their UI, but fully integrates on the software side. Ever wanted to just use google maps? How about controlling it via car UI and have your phone serve up the content? I'm not talking about sonething like Enform where only data is integrated and apps like pandora requires the app to exist on both car and phone, the app should only have to live on the your device.

JGard18

Sorry, but while I agree, ultimately an in-dash nav is 100x easier to work with than a separate device. I want to keep my phone in my pocket or in teh cup holder. I've used my phone exclusively for GPS and quite honestly it's a pain in the ***. Yes, my maps are horribly out-dated and yes not being able to plug in a destination is infuriating, but I'd still pick in-dash nav over my phone 99 times out of 100. My wife, too.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

couldnt avoid, ML package comes with nav and I wanted ML. Manufacturers need to move to an android or iOS based OS, much more responsive and easier to develop

Obscene14

The saving grace with the nav option is that your insurance is less than with a non nav car. Lexus nav has theft recovery GPS built in. Non nav cars don't.

My 46k 2014 is350 with nav costs $200 less per year to insure than my 37k 2014 is250 with no nav. The discount is because of the theft recovery software, bsm and the cross traffic alert that is packaged along with the nav. Yeah, the package price is a rip but at least you get something back from it.

moose66

Not concerned about value, or look. It is more about convenience to me. Built in is convenient. Not too many people smashing my window to ****** my GPS that I was in too much of a hurry to put away. Just saying.

mcomer

Your value comparison of OEM systems vs. phones and portables is valid.
I use my Garmin in rental cars when I fly (updates are no longer free, they want $75 each on my 8 year old Nuvi...)
Reasons why I like the built-in for daily use: Much cleaner and upscale IP appearance,
very quick to access alternate route (side streets) when a traffic jam appears out of nowhere,
theft consideration (cords and velcro tabs usually stay out when I stash the head unit),
Bigger and brighter Audio display, Bigger and brighter Back-up Camera, and finally,
I wanted most (but not all...) of the "extras" that they bundled with the Nav level trim.

Best answer seems to be to just have a built in screen that emulates your modern, updatable,
newer than the car portable and displays all it's Nav and entertainment functions! But where's the profit in that!?

dasbuch

Keep in mind I'm not saying the convenience of a built-in nav isn't nice, I'm just saying we should be voting with our wallets and not sign up for their criminal pricing of the units themselves and the updates. Nothing will change if people keep paying a premium for a poorly performing nav system.

I do agree that complete phone integration is probably the way of the future, but we shouldn't keep tolerating the status quo simply because the car makers don't see a profit in it. We should remind them that they are already making profit on the car itself by the very act of selling us a new one every few years.

The next time you take your car into service after a new model comes out, and they say "can I interest you in test driving the new _______", or you get a promotional e-mail trying to get you to buy a new car, respond (in person or in email or whatever) that you are simply not motivated to look at new cars, because every time you do, you're frustrated by the overpriced nav and the fact you can't opt out without giving up other features (or whatever your particular beef is). A good carmaker like Lexus will listen to that kind of feedback. They are very in tune to when a customer says "sorry not interested in buying a new car" and figuring out the reasons why. They will find ways to achieve profit by adding real value. As buyers we don't have the obligation to continue signing up for things that are a poor value.

Also some have said Nav must be purchased in order to get BSM, etc. I don't think those configurations are true in all markets. There are cars that have BSM, cross traffic etc but don't have nav that are available in some zip codes. So, tell your salesman to bring it in from another state if he has to in order to get you the car you want, or just walk away from the whole deal. It's still better than just caving in and buying a substandard nav system that's overpriced, not to mention the ridiculous map update prices.

damtachoa

There are 3 investments that you lose all 80% of your money:

1) Wife + Kids (after divorce you know what i'm talking about)
2) Cars
3) Stocks

However, people out there still invest those three. Why?