3 German sports sedans the Lexus IS350 can spank on an autocross
08-21-13, 01:33 AM
#16
it just shows how all these cars have turbo lag, no matter what mags say... in autox, turbo lag is most noticeable of them all.
now of course, some might not care and all they want is to stomp the gas pedal and get that rush feeling you get from the turbo spooling.
now of course, some might not care and all they want is to stomp the gas pedal and get that rush feeling you get from the turbo spooling.
08-21-13, 06:15 AM
#17
I was at this event as well. (It was a pleasure to meet you TripleL). I reiterate the sentiment of both the article posted by Natnut and comments by Triple L with regard to the cars. I will add the comment that the LFA is one seriously mean beast...
This was an absolutely great day of driving and it was nice to finally see what my car will look like when it arrives and to drive it ultra aggressively. Delivery day cannot come quick enough.
This was an absolutely great day of driving and it was nice to finally see what my car will look like when it arrives and to drive it ultra aggressively. Delivery day cannot come quick enough.
08-21-13, 10:33 PM
#20
Pole Position
Thread Starter
The same author did a more direct IS350 to 335i comparison for another website based on the same Lexus Ride and Drive Event.
WED, 08/21/2013 - 14:53 JOHN GOREHAM
Back to back driving the 2014 Lexus IS350 and BMW 335i
Which is the sportier of the two compact sports sedans? It depends on if you plan to turn and how important throttle response it to you.
This is not a full car review. Rather, this is a description of how the Lexus IS350, rear wheel drive sports sedan compared to the BMW 335i with rear wheel drive on a closed autocross style course. The Lexus IS350 has been very carefully updated for 2014 and Lexus has addressed what many saw as shortcomings.
Lexus IS350 Style Updates
The biggest change is the styling. Much more aggressive than before, the side view is very handsome if you are a fan of the Lexus design language. From the front, the new spindle grill is well integrated I the IS350 and the IS350 F-Sport version has an “in-your-face” ginormous rendering of that theme. Critics can now call the Lexus IS 350 styling anything they want to except boring or conservative. The BMW looks good to our eye, but not a car we would speed up in traffic to get a better look at.
Lexus IS350 vs. BMW 335i Drivetrains
Both the 2014 Lexus IS350 and BMW 335i offer six-cylinder engines with about 300 HP. However, the BMW needs 2 turbochargers to make that power. The Lexus is not turbocharged. That made all the difference on the three courses we drove the car on. The BMW’s turbos lag, and when you take your foot off the gas and then floor the accelerator, there is a full second of not much at all in the BMW. Then BOOM! The turbos come on. However, you may need to turn by then, so the driver never gets the power. The Lexus lunges off the line with much more linear power. On a long stretch of road with no turns the BMW will beat the IS350. However, for about half the cost you could buy a Camaro SS that will beat the BMW in that single contest. Sports sedans are not drag racers (only).
Short course handling Lexus IS350 vs. BMW 335i
Turbo lag was not the worst problem with the BMW. When you throw the BMW from side to side in aggressive driving the stability control nanny come on too strong, too fast, and then won’t give you the car back. It retards the engine way too long. Longer than any car at the event (Audi, Mercedes included) and you sit there saying, “where is the power.” When it does come back you then still have to wait for the turbos to spool up. Other participants of the event noticed. Many not used to turbocharged cars were shocked.
The 2014 Lexus IS350 danced from cone to cone, very neutral in its turning. In terms of handling the BMW understeers so shockingly you would think it was a front drive economy car. The BMW under-steered its way through the course from start to finish. Meaning it plowed. Why buy a rear-drive sports sedan if it is going to plow when pushed hard by the driver? The IS350 on stock tires can be made to rotate the tail out a bit. The IS350 F-Sport has more tire, on lower profile rims of greater diameter. For us, the non-F-Sport variant is the clear choice.
The bottom line is that the BMW has much going for it (of course), but it is not a car that is suited to aggressive driving on a closed course. The new Lexus IS350 is a car that feels sporty and tossable. Motortrend recently compared a $62,000 BMW 335ix to the $49,000 Lexus IS350awd. They picked the BMW as the winner, giving little in the way of points to the 20% cost differential. Our own Patrick Rall also tested the Lexus recently, and you can read his report at Torque News.
Please note: The video, courtesy of Youtube.com and LexusISRideAndDrive, shows the shortest of the three courses we drove to test the vehicles.
LINK : http://www.torquenews.com/1083/back-...0-and-bmw-335i
WED, 08/21/2013 - 14:53 JOHN GOREHAM
Back to back driving the 2014 Lexus IS350 and BMW 335i
Which is the sportier of the two compact sports sedans? It depends on if you plan to turn and how important throttle response it to you.
This is not a full car review. Rather, this is a description of how the Lexus IS350, rear wheel drive sports sedan compared to the BMW 335i with rear wheel drive on a closed autocross style course. The Lexus IS350 has been very carefully updated for 2014 and Lexus has addressed what many saw as shortcomings.
Lexus IS350 Style Updates
The biggest change is the styling. Much more aggressive than before, the side view is very handsome if you are a fan of the Lexus design language. From the front, the new spindle grill is well integrated I the IS350 and the IS350 F-Sport version has an “in-your-face” ginormous rendering of that theme. Critics can now call the Lexus IS 350 styling anything they want to except boring or conservative. The BMW looks good to our eye, but not a car we would speed up in traffic to get a better look at.
Lexus IS350 vs. BMW 335i Drivetrains
Both the 2014 Lexus IS350 and BMW 335i offer six-cylinder engines with about 300 HP. However, the BMW needs 2 turbochargers to make that power. The Lexus is not turbocharged. That made all the difference on the three courses we drove the car on. The BMW’s turbos lag, and when you take your foot off the gas and then floor the accelerator, there is a full second of not much at all in the BMW. Then BOOM! The turbos come on. However, you may need to turn by then, so the driver never gets the power. The Lexus lunges off the line with much more linear power. On a long stretch of road with no turns the BMW will beat the IS350. However, for about half the cost you could buy a Camaro SS that will beat the BMW in that single contest. Sports sedans are not drag racers (only).
Short course handling Lexus IS350 vs. BMW 335i
Turbo lag was not the worst problem with the BMW. When you throw the BMW from side to side in aggressive driving the stability control nanny come on too strong, too fast, and then won’t give you the car back. It retards the engine way too long. Longer than any car at the event (Audi, Mercedes included) and you sit there saying, “where is the power.” When it does come back you then still have to wait for the turbos to spool up. Other participants of the event noticed. Many not used to turbocharged cars were shocked.
The 2014 Lexus IS350 danced from cone to cone, very neutral in its turning. In terms of handling the BMW understeers so shockingly you would think it was a front drive economy car. The BMW under-steered its way through the course from start to finish. Meaning it plowed. Why buy a rear-drive sports sedan if it is going to plow when pushed hard by the driver? The IS350 on stock tires can be made to rotate the tail out a bit. The IS350 F-Sport has more tire, on lower profile rims of greater diameter. For us, the non-F-Sport variant is the clear choice.
The bottom line is that the BMW has much going for it (of course), but it is not a car that is suited to aggressive driving on a closed course. The new Lexus IS350 is a car that feels sporty and tossable. Motortrend recently compared a $62,000 BMW 335ix to the $49,000 Lexus IS350awd. They picked the BMW as the winner, giving little in the way of points to the 20% cost differential. Our own Patrick Rall also tested the Lexus recently, and you can read his report at Torque News.
Please note: The video, courtesy of Youtube.com and LexusISRideAndDrive, shows the shortest of the three courses we drove to test the vehicles.
LINK : http://www.torquenews.com/1083/back-...0-and-bmw-335i
08-22-13, 12:00 AM
#21
The problem with the S4 is not the entirely the pricing but it bastardizes itself in an ungraceful way. the 335ix does the same thing but it categorizes itself out of necessity which is much more graceful. IMHO, the IS AWD is given away.
head to head here is the lineup. lets just worry about three for now.
IS350 / 335i / A4(sadly)
IS350AWD / 335ix / S4(too much)
My problem with the A4 (audis in general) is that it tends to rely on the branding much more than its delivery. BMW is somewhere in the middle and Lexus just gives it away. The A4 (in the first lineup) has a CVT transmission, 2.0L-turbo and i believe is a front wheel drive. BUT IT COSTS THE SAME as the IS350 and the 335i who both have bigger engines and much better transmissions. you could opt out for the quattro with the triptonic transmission but you're still stuck with a small engine only giving you 220HP. So you have really nice shoes now buuuut you're also kinda fat. Oh and you're clothes are boring, but thats another topic. And with the upgrades your now a little over the price of a 350F-Sport but again with the small engine. So what's the answer?.....S4!! kind of...
The S4 starts at $48,100. A thousand more and you have a fully equipped IS350 F-sport, but anyways. But now you finally get a vehicle that can compete right? Well...kind of. Now you have 6 cylinders (3.0L) and unlike the 3L from the 335i where they twin turbo it, Audi supercharges it. You wouldn't know it from all of the 3.0T badges on the fenders. T means turbo right? lol. Well how about AVS and VGRS? Sure...they have that...for a price! So after adding all of those options just to make it perform like the F-Sport, you are driving off the Audi lot with $64,000 less in your pocket. Wait...isnt that more than an ISF or an M3? Ohhh.....you caught that huh? But now that Audi has built this great vehicle, the quattro puts it in the second lineup. This is where BMW comes close to that price tag and Lexus gives it away. So where does the Audi fit? The question is not where but with who.
IMHO the A4 had no business being at the lexus drive event. It should've been at an Acura drive event with the other FWD luxury sedans. It really didnt have the legs to compete with the other three companies (BMW, BENZ, LEXUS). The S4 is so pricey for what you get, you would have to LOVE the brand over the performance to ever purchase the Audi S line. With the options and features that Lexus and BMW give you in the M-Spec and F-sport lines, the S4 costs more than an M3 or an ISF. And that just seams nuts to me.
so just to conclude...
head to head here is the lineup. lets just worry about three for now.
IS350 / 335i / A4(sadly)
IS350AWD / 335ix / S4(too much)
My problem with the A4 (audis in general) is that it tends to rely on the branding much more than its delivery. BMW is somewhere in the middle and Lexus just gives it away. The A4 (in the first lineup) has a CVT transmission, 2.0L-turbo and i believe is a front wheel drive. BUT IT COSTS THE SAME as the IS350 and the 335i who both have bigger engines and much better transmissions. you could opt out for the quattro with the triptonic transmission but you're still stuck with a small engine only giving you 220HP. So you have really nice shoes now buuuut you're also kinda fat. Oh and you're clothes are boring, but thats another topic. And with the upgrades your now a little over the price of a 350F-Sport but again with the small engine. So what's the answer?.....S4!! kind of...
The S4 starts at $48,100. A thousand more and you have a fully equipped IS350 F-sport, but anyways. But now you finally get a vehicle that can compete right? Well...kind of. Now you have 6 cylinders (3.0L) and unlike the 3L from the 335i where they twin turbo it, Audi supercharges it. You wouldn't know it from all of the 3.0T badges on the fenders. T means turbo right? lol. Well how about AVS and VGRS? Sure...they have that...for a price! So after adding all of those options just to make it perform like the F-Sport, you are driving off the Audi lot with $64,000 less in your pocket. Wait...isnt that more than an ISF or an M3? Ohhh.....you caught that huh? But now that Audi has built this great vehicle, the quattro puts it in the second lineup. This is where BMW comes close to that price tag and Lexus gives it away. So where does the Audi fit? The question is not where but with who.
IMHO the A4 had no business being at the lexus drive event. It should've been at an Acura drive event with the other FWD luxury sedans. It really didnt have the legs to compete with the other three companies (BMW, BENZ, LEXUS). The S4 is so pricey for what you get, you would have to LOVE the brand over the performance to ever purchase the Audi S line. With the options and features that Lexus and BMW give you in the M-Spec and F-sport lines, the S4 costs more than an M3 or an ISF. And that just seams nuts to me.
so just to conclude...
- Lexus gives things away (yay for us not the greatest thing for the brand)
- BMW prices their AWD higher but makes you understand that you are paying extra for the AWD, not for the badge
- Audi bastardizes its car classes leaving you disappointed with the power or disappointed in how much you spent just for the badge. You really have to LOVE those four circles(olympics-ish) to not experience buyers remorse with this one IMHO.
08-22-13, 05:02 AM
#23
The problem with the S4 is not the entirely the pricing but it bastardizes itself in an ungraceful way. the 335ix does the same thing but it categorizes itself out of necessity which is much more graceful. IMHO, the IS AWD is given away.
head to head here is the lineup. lets just worry about three for now.
IS350 / 335i / A4(sadly)
IS350AWD / 335ix / S4(too much)
My problem with the A4 (audis in general) is that it tends to rely on the branding much more than its delivery. BMW is somewhere in the middle and Lexus just gives it away. The A4 (in the first lineup) has a CVT transmission, 2.0L-turbo and i believe is a front wheel drive. BUT IT COSTS THE SAME as the IS350 and the 335i who both have bigger engines and much better transmissions. you could opt out for the quattro with the triptonic transmission but you're still stuck with a small engine only giving you 220HP. So you have really nice shoes now buuuut you're also kinda fat. Oh and you're clothes are boring, but thats another topic. And with the upgrades your now a little over the price of a 350F-Sport but again with the small engine. So what's the answer?.....S4!! kind of...
The S4 starts at $48,100. A thousand more and you have a fully equipped IS350 F-sport, but anyways. But now you finally get a vehicle that can compete right? Well...kind of. Now you have 6 cylinders (3.0L) and unlike the 3L from the 335i where they twin turbo it, Audi supercharges it. You wouldn't know it from all of the 3.0T badges on the fenders. T means turbo right? lol. Well how about AVS and VGRS? Sure...they have that...for a price! So after adding all of those options just to make it perform like the F-Sport, you are driving off the Audi lot with $64,000 less in your pocket. Wait...isnt that more than an ISF or an M3? Ohhh.....you caught that huh? But now that Audi has built this great vehicle, the quattro puts it in the second lineup. This is where BMW comes close to that price tag and Lexus gives it away. So where does the Audi fit? The question is not where but with who.
IMHO the A4 had no business being at the lexus drive event. It should've been at an Acura drive event with the other FWD luxury sedans. It really didnt have the legs to compete with the other three companies (BMW, BENZ, LEXUS). The S4 is so pricey for what you get, you would have to LOVE the brand over the performance to ever purchase the Audi S line. With the options and features that Lexus and BMW give you in the M-Spec and F-sport lines, the S4 costs more than an M3 or an ISF. And that just seams nuts to me.
so just to conclude...
head to head here is the lineup. lets just worry about three for now.
IS350 / 335i / A4(sadly)
IS350AWD / 335ix / S4(too much)
My problem with the A4 (audis in general) is that it tends to rely on the branding much more than its delivery. BMW is somewhere in the middle and Lexus just gives it away. The A4 (in the first lineup) has a CVT transmission, 2.0L-turbo and i believe is a front wheel drive. BUT IT COSTS THE SAME as the IS350 and the 335i who both have bigger engines and much better transmissions. you could opt out for the quattro with the triptonic transmission but you're still stuck with a small engine only giving you 220HP. So you have really nice shoes now buuuut you're also kinda fat. Oh and you're clothes are boring, but thats another topic. And with the upgrades your now a little over the price of a 350F-Sport but again with the small engine. So what's the answer?.....S4!! kind of...
The S4 starts at $48,100. A thousand more and you have a fully equipped IS350 F-sport, but anyways. But now you finally get a vehicle that can compete right? Well...kind of. Now you have 6 cylinders (3.0L) and unlike the 3L from the 335i where they twin turbo it, Audi supercharges it. You wouldn't know it from all of the 3.0T badges on the fenders. T means turbo right? lol. Well how about AVS and VGRS? Sure...they have that...for a price! So after adding all of those options just to make it perform like the F-Sport, you are driving off the Audi lot with $64,000 less in your pocket. Wait...isnt that more than an ISF or an M3? Ohhh.....you caught that huh? But now that Audi has built this great vehicle, the quattro puts it in the second lineup. This is where BMW comes close to that price tag and Lexus gives it away. So where does the Audi fit? The question is not where but with who.
IMHO the A4 had no business being at the lexus drive event. It should've been at an Acura drive event with the other FWD luxury sedans. It really didnt have the legs to compete with the other three companies (BMW, BENZ, LEXUS). The S4 is so pricey for what you get, you would have to LOVE the brand over the performance to ever purchase the Audi S line. With the options and features that Lexus and BMW give you in the M-Spec and F-sport lines, the S4 costs more than an M3 or an ISF. And that just seams nuts to me.
so just to conclude...
- Lexus gives things away (yay for us not the greatest thing for the brand)
- BMW prices their AWD higher but makes you understand that you are paying extra for the AWD, not for the badge
- Audi bastardizes its car classes leaving you disappointed with the power or disappointed in how much you spent just for the badge. You really have to LOVE those four circles(olympics-ish) to not experience buyers remorse with this one IMHO.
Audi knows how to charge for their cars. Their package of equipment is very expensive, and when you set them up online so ends up with about the same price tag as a IS350 F-sport with similar equipment. Since I had the Audi so I looked at a new course before I chose Lexus. IS350 does not exist in Sweden, so my options were IS250 or IS300h. For the same price as a fully equipped IS300h I get an A4 2.0T 225hp (updated engine for model year 2014) with manual transmission and FWD. But WITHOUT any active safety systems. A4 is significantly faster 0-62, but it requires much more fuel too. I will sacrifice a few seconds on accelleration from rest to get a car that is both highly secure and efficient. IS300h is almost up with the A4 in overtaking. In addition, the new IS more comfortable and luxurious than A4.
S4 is even worse. Fun to drive, sure, but it costs. Doubled consumption and a price tag more than 20% higher compared with IS300h.
CVT gearbox is not the funniest thing on maknaden, but in S mode is quite ok. Together with the hybrid powertrain, there is no better gearbox. I test drove the Audi A6 Hybrid before I decided, and it has 8 speed tiptronic. Really not correct transmission for a hybrid. Clear jerk every time the gasoline engine started or stopping during the journey. Far from premium.
For the price I paid for my IS300h there were many other cars to choose from, but Lexus is building the world's best hybrids so the choice was obvious.
Certainly, the above test is not about hybrids, but the Lexus quality is in all their cars. And the cost is really not that much in comparison.
08-22-13, 10:31 AM
#24
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting.. He didn't go into any details on exactly why or how the non-F-Sport is better though. Any speculation on why it is the case?
Last edited by ydooby; 08-22-13 at 11:06 AM.
Cmon dude...
08-22-13, 11:14 AM
#26
Lexus Champion
Anyone from the German forums, stand down, it's our turn to gloat! 
Lol blame Audi. It's not fair to hold the rest of the competition back just because FWD Audi wants to pretend it belongs.
08-22-13, 12:16 PM
#27
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only assume that the non F-Sport has less rotational mass/unsprung weight making it a better choice for autocross? I'm not sure either, but that's my best guess.
08-22-13, 12:39 PM
#28
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 2,010
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although interesting to know, I think autocross is a very peculiar driving environment where many experiences and observations can't be applied to driving in the real world or even a normal race track.
08-22-13, 01:25 PM
#29
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ca
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Using the A4 CVT FWD as the comparison point is ludicrous. That's their bottom end model used for newspaper advertisements.
The complaints of turbo lag also make me wonder if the reviewer knows how to drive. There is very little to no turbo lag in the A4, unless you are driving around in a parking lot in 6th gear - full torque is available at 1500 RPM.
The complaints of turbo lag also make me wonder if the reviewer knows how to drive. There is very little to no turbo lag in the A4, unless you are driving around in a parking lot in 6th gear - full torque is available at 1500 RPM.
08-22-13, 01:30 PM
#30
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed, this is also why earlier I said the mentions of turbo lag seem exaggerated.
