The 2.5L V6's days are numbered
05-20-13, 02:53 AM
#61
hybrids win fuel economy in every way (Toyota HSD at least). Its not just about hybrid powertrain, their engine is also running on atkinson cycle which has 30% better fuel economy than standard engines plus they have hybrid cvt which can run at lower rpm's.
obviously the best would be to have small capacity turbo + hybrid powertrain... that way you would get low rpm torque of electric motors help the turbo, plus better cruising mpg as you got much smaller engine running,.
question is the cost and complexity. Probably $1k-$2k more in costs for 2-3 mpg max. Plus for mpg reasons, i doubt that this particular 300h would be faster at all. Maybe even less fast as 2.5l doesnt need turbo's to spool and CVT is perfect for keeping the engine in best power range, it will just jump to 4000 RPM right away when you press gas hard.
obviously the best would be to have small capacity turbo + hybrid powertrain... that way you would get low rpm torque of electric motors help the turbo, plus better cruising mpg as you got much smaller engine running,.
question is the cost and complexity. Probably $1k-$2k more in costs for 2-3 mpg max. Plus for mpg reasons, i doubt that this particular 300h would be faster at all. Maybe even less fast as 2.5l doesnt need turbo's to spool and CVT is perfect for keeping the engine in best power range, it will just jump to 4000 RPM right away when you press gas hard.
05-20-13, 01:58 PM
#62
Very true what you say about Atkinson Cycle etc.
From my memory, the last time I drove the BMW 3.0 in-line six turbo, there was a flat spot at the bottom, then the turbo kicked in with a rush; I still prefer flat torque curves the most.
Meanwhile the GS450h was a really heavy motor car around corners; it can't grip as well as the lighter GS350.
So personally I'll stick with the naturally aspirated engines for now.
I wish both the 2.5L & 3.5L V6 could be tuned for more bottom end torque, even if that comes at the expense of top end torque and power...
From my memory, the last time I drove the BMW 3.0 in-line six turbo, there was a flat spot at the bottom, then the turbo kicked in with a rush; I still prefer flat torque curves the most.
Meanwhile the GS450h was a really heavy motor car around corners; it can't grip as well as the lighter GS350.
So personally I'll stick with the naturally aspirated engines for now.
I wish both the 2.5L & 3.5L V6 could be tuned for more bottom end torque, even if that comes at the expense of top end torque and power...
05-20-13, 02:27 PM
#63
Agreed. That's what I like about the V6 in the Panamera. Their 3.6 makes 295 tq @ 3,750 rpm. I don't know how Porsche gets such high torque numbers from their sixes. Flat or V.
05-20-13, 10:58 PM
#64
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So we know that the 2.5L V6's days are numbered.
There is a lot of talk about turbos.
Formula 1 racing has gone back to the turbocharged 1.6L V6 formula, not too different from the turbocharged 1.5L V6's used back in the 1980's.
Infiniti likes that new formula, so they have joined F1 - for the first time, is that right?
Infiniti has begun to sponsor Red Bull for the current 2013 F1 season.
Infiniti is developing Energy Recovery Systems for Red Bull's 2014 F1 cars.
Back in the 1980's, Honda was the master in turbocharged 1.5 liter V6's.
Ferarri's turbocharged 1.5 liter V8 could not match - the small capacity V8 configuration tended to be too thirsty.
Honda likes that new formula too, so Honda returns to F1 for the 2015 season.
Honda is re-entering Formula 1 in 2015 under the new formula that requires a turbocharged 1.6 liter V6, rather than the current 2.4 liter V8 naturally aspirated.
Under new rules for the 2014 Formula 1 season, here is Mercedes turbocharged 1.6 liter V6 for next year below.
It may not be too long before even Mercedes uses a small capacity turbocharged V6 for their passenger cars???
Although this may be unlikely in the short term, because Benz has committed to dropping the Benz-Chrysler 60 degree V6's, and Benz has committed to returning to their own exclusive range of dedicated in-line sixes, like BMW in-line sixes.
How far is Toyota from returning under the Lexus banner?
There are rumors that Toyota is also re-entering F1 under the Lexus name.
So perhaps a Formula 1 inspired, or even a Formula 1 derived Lexus turbocharged V6 isn't too far away?
So for passenger cars, rather than a turbocharged four pot, how about a turbocharged small capacity 2.0L V6 etc?
It could be closer to reality than we think?
If Lexus really wants to put the nail in the coffin on Benz and Beamer, maybe they should be the first to market small capacity turbocharged V6's?
A turbocharged in-line four is more suitable for the Toyota line up, like the Camry etc.
There is a lot of talk about turbos.
Formula 1 racing has gone back to the turbocharged 1.6L V6 formula, not too different from the turbocharged 1.5L V6's used back in the 1980's.
Infiniti likes that new formula, so they have joined F1 - for the first time, is that right?
Infiniti has begun to sponsor Red Bull for the current 2013 F1 season.
Infiniti is developing Energy Recovery Systems for Red Bull's 2014 F1 cars.
Back in the 1980's, Honda was the master in turbocharged 1.5 liter V6's.
Ferarri's turbocharged 1.5 liter V8 could not match - the small capacity V8 configuration tended to be too thirsty.
Honda likes that new formula too, so Honda returns to F1 for the 2015 season.
Honda is re-entering Formula 1 in 2015 under the new formula that requires a turbocharged 1.6 liter V6, rather than the current 2.4 liter V8 naturally aspirated.
Under new rules for the 2014 Formula 1 season, here is Mercedes turbocharged 1.6 liter V6 for next year below.
It may not be too long before even Mercedes uses a small capacity turbocharged V6 for their passenger cars???
Although this may be unlikely in the short term, because Benz has committed to dropping the Benz-Chrysler 60 degree V6's, and Benz has committed to returning to their own exclusive range of dedicated in-line sixes, like BMW in-line sixes.
How far is Toyota from returning under the Lexus banner?
There are rumors that Toyota is also re-entering F1 under the Lexus name.
So perhaps a Formula 1 inspired, or even a Formula 1 derived Lexus turbocharged V6 isn't too far away?
So for passenger cars, rather than a turbocharged four pot, how about a turbocharged small capacity 2.0L V6 etc?
It could be closer to reality than we think?
If Lexus really wants to put the nail in the coffin on Benz and Beamer, maybe they should be the first to market small capacity turbocharged V6's?
A turbocharged in-line four is more suitable for the Toyota line up, like the Camry etc.
I'd rather Lexus build LFA and LF LC than go back into F1 as Toyota.
05-20-13, 11:00 PM
#65
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05-21-13, 12:43 AM
#67
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That's one thing I don't understand about Lexus/Toyota, is why they don't develop their engine over the course of it's production cycle to produce more power. Cadillac CTS 3.6 was doing 255 HP in 2006 while the IS350 was at 306. Fast forward to 2013 and the CTS 3.6 is at 318 while the IS 350 is still at 306, and they didn't do it at the cost of torque either, both TQ and HP were increased. Infiniti has also quietly bumped the output of their V6 over the years.
05-21-13, 02:09 AM
#68
It is used with slightly lower specs in the VW Toureg etc...
05-21-13, 03:13 AM
#69
Very true what you say about Atkinson Cycle etc.
From my memory, the last time I drove the BMW 3.0 in-line six turbo, there was a flat spot at the bottom, then the turbo kicked in with a rush; I still prefer flat torque curves the most.
Meanwhile the GS450h was a really heavy motor car around corners; it can't grip as well as the lighter GS350.
So personally I'll stick with the naturally aspirated engines for now.
I wish both the 2.5L & 3.5L V6 could be tuned for more bottom end torque, even if that comes at the expense of top end torque and power...
From my memory, the last time I drove the BMW 3.0 in-line six turbo, there was a flat spot at the bottom, then the turbo kicked in with a rush; I still prefer flat torque curves the most.
Meanwhile the GS450h was a really heavy motor car around corners; it can't grip as well as the lighter GS350.
So personally I'll stick with the naturally aspirated engines for now.
I wish both the 2.5L & 3.5L V6 could be tuned for more bottom end torque, even if that comes at the expense of top end torque and power...
MPG wise, it is awesome engine for sure. For us in Europe, petrol V6 engines are not an option at all. It doesnt matter if you can pay for them at the pump (our fuel is $8-$9 per gallon), but also nobody will buy it used... so you get stuck with it and value drops hard.
HP wise, right now they get 42hp battery output from NiMH batteries... from similar lion batteries they will get 10-15hp extra, but of course you will have to have recovered extra energy to use it.
Maybe in 5-6 years, when they get some new batteries out, they will be able to pump more hp out of these smaller batteries. Right now, both nimh and lion are limited on what they can push out at maximum by their battery size... so smaller battery, less hp from it... So maybe next generation IS300h in 6 years, can get 80-90hp out same battery size... so it would be 260-270hp at maximum "boost".
05-29-13, 12:53 AM
#72
Driver School Candidate
How do we make the conclusion that the 2014 IS will have this new engine from this statement?
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
05-29-13, 11:37 AM
#73
How do we make the conclusion that the 2014 IS will have this new engine from this statement?
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
Based on the known develpment of the 2.0t by Lexus/Toyota, based on the increasing mpg standards, and based on other auto manufacturer trends like the BMW 3 series with 4cy turbo, I bet that it is highly likely that this 2.0t or a retuned version of it make it into the new IS at some point.
05-29-13, 11:53 AM
#74
By the way, for those ripping 4 cy engines, or for those worried that it wont be quick or smooth, go drive a new BMW 328i with the 2.0t 4cy. BMW lists the HP at 240 (5000-6000 rpm) and Tq at 255 (1250-4800). The BMW listed 0-60 time is 5.8 seconds, but that is generally conservative, for example they list the 335i time at 5.1. Lexus lists the IS350 at 5.6 and the IS250 at 7.9 for RWD models. So the BMW 4 cy turbo is only 0.2 seconds slower 0-60 than the IS350! And it has an 8 speed auto that is pretty decent. The combo is a quiet ride unless you really get on it. (MPG is 23/33)
Knowing Lexus they will likely produce less HP than the BMW but will produce a more reliable engine with good fuel economy, hopefully with a good 8 speed tranny. I think its worth holding out for. Given that HP isnt near the top of my list anymore, I would highly consider a IS200t next year if I dont upgrade to an RX or something like that before then.
Knowing Lexus they will likely produce less HP than the BMW but will produce a more reliable engine with good fuel economy, hopefully with a good 8 speed tranny. I think its worth holding out for. Given that HP isnt near the top of my list anymore, I would highly consider a IS200t next year if I dont upgrade to an RX or something like that before then.
05-29-13, 01:11 PM
#75
How do we make the conclusion that the 2014 IS will have this new engine from this statement?
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
"Starting 2014, TMC plans to launch a vehicle with a new 2.0-liter, turbo-charged AR engine, also based on the 2.5-liter AR gasoline engine. The new engine's smaller displacement will provide higher fuel efficiency while the turbocharger will improve output."
I like the new IS and of this engine really is heading for the IS next year I might wait, but this seems like a pretty vague statement.
They went with 2.0l to get tax incentives in countries like China.
Considering that in China they have 4cly ES250 and RX270, I bet this engine will end up in many Lexus vehicles, maybe with exception for LS.