Acura TL SH-AWD vs IS-350 AWD
02-06-13, 01:44 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
I don't think they look bad stock, they just aren't in the same league as a Lexus IMHO.
Lots of incredible looking cars I feel the same way about.
Lots of incredible looking cars I feel the same way about.
02-06-13, 05:36 PM
#47
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Thread Starter
I've done WAY better than TrueCar on every car I've bought over the last couple years. Truecar showed a $2,500 discount on my GS, I got $6k. Negotiations are always a personal thing, you have to compare them MSRP to MSRP.
A fully loaded IS350 AWD is $47,565, a fully loaded TL SHAWD with Tech is $44,676. So, the IS is $2,800 more. I'd pay $2,800 all day long for a Lexus over an IS.
Anyways, its a moot point because IMHO the TL and the IS aren't really competitors since the TL is so much bigger. Obviously when the new IS comes out, you won't be able to get a deal on one at all for a while.
A fully loaded IS350 AWD is $47,565, a fully loaded TL SHAWD with Tech is $44,676. So, the IS is $2,800 more. I'd pay $2,800 all day long for a Lexus over an IS.
Anyways, its a moot point because IMHO the TL and the IS aren't really competitors since the TL is so much bigger. Obviously when the new IS comes out, you won't be able to get a deal on one at all for a while.
You can buy both cars bellow MSRP, but from my past experiences, Acura's always discounted deeper percentage wise than more luxury brands Lexus/BMW/Mercedes. Thats why I said you could get TL 5K cheaper.
02-06-13, 05:39 PM
#48
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Thread Starter
. But that's not to say TL is crap... I am sure if someone is willing to spend 50K+, then they can make another upgrade to a new league.... it only gets better with the price
02-06-13, 05:45 PM
#49
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Thread Starter
Its very subjective that Acura TL SH-AWD Tech offers less in value for your $$ than IS350 AWD.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...Acura_TL/2012/ ranks it as #1 in Upscale Mid Size car. I know reviews are subjective too, but there is no simple answer.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...Acura_TL/2012/ ranks it as #1 in Upscale Mid Size car. I know reviews are subjective too, but there is no simple answer.
02-06-13, 06:50 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
I never said the TL was crap, I just said I don't feel it's in the same level as a Lexus, and I wouldn't consider one alongside an IS because they're very different cars.
You seem to be a big fan of the TL, why don't you have one?
You seem to be a big fan of the TL, why don't you have one?
02-06-13, 10:13 PM
#51
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Personally, I would go with the IS. I think the TL is a great car on the inside and the technology it packs, but I'm not a fan of the styling. Short of the NSX, I haven't been a fan of any Acura vehicles exterior styling though. And while it handles great for a FWD bias vehicle, it still feels like FWD when driving around and I much prefer RWD or a RWD bias on an AWD vehicle.
If you're torn, the best thing to do is drive both and let the car (not forum members) convince you.
Last edited by Ramon; 02-06-13 at 10:21 PM.
02-07-13, 07:26 AM
#52
There's a possibility the Acura TL is lower in price, due to the fact that it's in the later half of its life cycle. The design of the contraversial front grill (the beak) hurted sales early on in it's production, so a lower price point may help rectify its sales slump. Otherwise this car is relatively a decent vehicle. Besides you will be in the driver seat so, you won't be looking at the "beak".
Best feature the TL has over any other Japanese competitior (G37x, IS350 AWD), is that you can get a manual transmission in the SH-AWD iteration. If the SH-AWD was rear biased, I would have considered purchasing this car.
Best feature the TL has over any other Japanese competitior (G37x, IS350 AWD), is that you can get a manual transmission in the SH-AWD iteration. If the SH-AWD was rear biased, I would have considered purchasing this car.
02-07-13, 09:38 AM
#53
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Its very subjective that Acura TL SH-AWD Tech offers less in value for your $$ than IS350 AWD.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...Acura_TL/2012/ ranks it as #1 in Upscale Mid Size car. I know reviews are subjective too, but there is no simple answer.
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...Acura_TL/2012/ ranks it as #1 in Upscale Mid Size car. I know reviews are subjective too, but there is no simple answer.
To me a car that is built alongside the Accord for the same price as a RWD IS from Japan offers less value. Not sure why the car costs that much when its built here whereas cars built in Japan have had prices skyrocket up due to the yen. So where is this value?
There's a possibility the Acura TL is lower in price, due to the fact that it's in the later half of its life cycle. The design of the contraversial front grill (the beak) hurted sales early on in it's production, so a lower price point may help rectify its sales slump. Otherwise this car is relatively a decent vehicle. Besides you will be in the driver seat so, you won't be looking at the "beak".
Best feature the TL has over any other Japanese competitior (G37x, IS350 AWD), is that you can get a manual transmission in the SH-AWD iteration. If the SH-AWD was rear biased, I would have considered purchasing this car.
Best feature the TL has over any other Japanese competitior (G37x, IS350 AWD), is that you can get a manual transmission in the SH-AWD iteration. If the SH-AWD was rear biased, I would have considered purchasing this car.
Also remember about 85% sold are FWD models, not AWD models. Less than 5% sold are the manual. So its really apples to oranges as 100% of IS's sold are RWD or AWD.
The TL like the ES, CTS, G35/37 has always been a "tweener". Lexus had the actual ***** to produce a RWD sedan to go directly head to head with the 3 series, C-class, etc matching it in dimensions, RWD, some powerplant offerings and a true AMG/M etc competitor in the IS F.
02-07-13, 11:53 AM
#54
It is lower in price b/c dealers will do anything to sell it. This is a vehicle they anticipated to sell 70k a year and it sold around 35k its best year. Sales continue to drop even after the "refresh" which did absolutely nothing to help sales.
Also remember about 85% sold are FWD models, not AWD models. Less than 5% sold are the manual. So its really apples to oranges as 100% of IS's sold are RWD or AWD.
The TL like the ES, CTS, G35/37 has always been a "tweener". Lexus had the actual ***** to produce a RWD sedan to go directly head to head with the 3 series, C-class, etc matching it in dimensions, RWD, some powerplant offerings and a true AMG/M etc competitor in the IS F.
Other examples include, dealership needs to reach a quota, in order to get incentives/bonuses from Acura, that can include which dealership gets to sell the first NSX, gifts, etc.
The G35/37 is no tweener, it was entry level sport/luxury sedan/coupe. It was engineered directly to compete with the IS350/3 series & multiple automotive journalist placed the G35/37 being 2nd to BMW 3 series, if cost wasn't tallied. The G was dubbed a "poor man's 3 series". It's base car is RWD, the chassis (FM Platform) & engine is based off the Nissan 350Z, which had R&D sessions on the Nurburgring for tuning, prior to production. The G coupe was strictly RWD from 2004-2007, the new gen came out with the option of AWD in 2008. The sedan got AWD some time after 2004. Since 2003, the production G series for infiniti has been RWD (known as the Skyline in Japan). If you're refering to the mid 90's Infiniti G20 (aka nissan primera, FWD), that was a whole different story, not even a tweener, prior to Carlos Ghosn becoming CEO of Nissan.
The same VQ engine is fitted for both RWD & AWD application, unlike the Acura TL. All TL with the 3.7L engine with 305hp comes in SH-AWD, & all 3.5L engine with 280hp come only in FWD. So every 3.7L engine sold is AWD, which i based my comparisons to the G35/37xS AWD. Not comparing a Nissan Maxima to the 3.5L TL.
Lexus had a clear vision to compete with BMW 3 series
in the entry level sport/luxury (3 Series, C-class, IS, CT-S, G35/37, A4 & TL) & kept the IS lineup RWD from the start, but with changing demand, especially for climate regions, they added the safety & security of AWD system. Even the CT-S started it's life as RWD, then later adding AWD system.The odd one in the entry level sport/luxury is the TL, starting life as FWD.
Why Nissan never built a high performance G, boggles the mind, might have something to do with limited cash flow versus Toyota, so performance model was strictly concentrated on the R35 GT-R, while Toyota can go ahead with the IS-F & LFA. Maybe Nissan's accounting dept saw small to no profits & decided not to build one, & many other factors that we don't know of.
Last edited by InfamousQ; 02-07-13 at 12:18 PM.
02-07-13, 12:29 PM
#55
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Posts: n/a
Dealers are willing to sell at a lower price can be a result of multiple factors. One being, Acura is pushing them to sell excessive stock, by lowering factory prices to the dealers, thereby allowing dealers to give better deals (10-15K off of ZDX is a big example in the area I reside in).
Other examples include, dealership needs to reach a quota, in order to get incentives/bonuses from Acura, that can include which dealership gets to sell the first NSX, gifts, etc.
The G35/37 is no tweener, it was entry level sport/luxury sedan/coupe. It was engineered directly to compete with the IS350/3 series & multiple automotive journalist placed the G35/37 being 2nd to BMW 3 series, if cost wasn't tallied. The G was dubbed a "poor man's 3 series". It's base car is RWD, the chassis (FM Platform) & engine is based off the Nissan 350Z, which had R&D sessions on the Nurburgring for tuning, prior to production. The G coupe was strictly RWD from 2004-2007, the new gen came out with the option of AWD in 2008. The sedan got AWD some time after 2004. Since 2003, the production G series for infiniti has been RWD (known as the Skyline in Japan). If you're refering to the mid 90's Infiniti G20 (aka nissan primera, FWD), that was a whole different story, not even a tweener, prior to Carlos Ghosn becoming CEO of Nissan.
The same VQ engine is fitted for both RWD & AWD application, unlike the Acura TL. All TL with the 3.7L engine with 305hp comes in SH-AWD, & all 3.5L engine with 280hp come only in FWD. So every 3.7L engine sold is AWD, which i based my comparisons to the G35/37xS AWD. Not comparing a Nissan Maxima to the 3.5L TL.
Lexus had a clear vision to compete with BMW 3 series in the entry level sport/luxury (3 Series, C-class, IS, CT-S, G35/37, A4 & TL) & kept the IS lineup RWD from the start, but with changing demand, especially for climate regions, they added the safety & security of AWD system. Even the CT-S started it's life as RWD, then later adding AWD system.
The odd one in the entry level sport/luxury is the TL, starting life as FWD.
Why Nissan never built a high performance G, boggles the mind, might have something to do with limited cash flow versus Toyota, so performance model was strictly concentrated on the R35 GT-R, while Toyota can go ahead with the IS-F & LFA. Maybe Nissan's accounting dept saw small to no profits & decided not to build one, & many other factors that we don't know of.
Other examples include, dealership needs to reach a quota, in order to get incentives/bonuses from Acura, that can include which dealership gets to sell the first NSX, gifts, etc.
The G35/37 is no tweener, it was entry level sport/luxury sedan/coupe. It was engineered directly to compete with the IS350/3 series & multiple automotive journalist placed the G35/37 being 2nd to BMW 3 series, if cost wasn't tallied. The G was dubbed a "poor man's 3 series". It's base car is RWD, the chassis (FM Platform) & engine is based off the Nissan 350Z, which had R&D sessions on the Nurburgring for tuning, prior to production. The G coupe was strictly RWD from 2004-2007, the new gen came out with the option of AWD in 2008. The sedan got AWD some time after 2004. Since 2003, the production G series for infiniti has been RWD (known as the Skyline in Japan). If you're refering to the mid 90's Infiniti G20 (aka nissan primera, FWD), that was a whole different story, not even a tweener, prior to Carlos Ghosn becoming CEO of Nissan.
The same VQ engine is fitted for both RWD & AWD application, unlike the Acura TL. All TL with the 3.7L engine with 305hp comes in SH-AWD, & all 3.5L engine with 280hp come only in FWD. So every 3.7L engine sold is AWD, which i based my comparisons to the G35/37xS AWD. Not comparing a Nissan Maxima to the 3.5L TL.
Lexus had a clear vision to compete with BMW 3 series
in the entry level sport/luxury (3 Series, C-class, IS, CT-S, G35/37, A4 & TL) & kept the IS lineup RWD from the start, but with changing demand, especially for climate regions, they added the safety & security of AWD system. Even the CT-S started it's life as RWD, then later adding AWD system.The odd one in the entry level sport/luxury is the TL, starting life as FWD.
Why Nissan never built a high performance G, boggles the mind, might have something to do with limited cash flow versus Toyota, so performance model was strictly concentrated on the R35 GT-R, while Toyota can go ahead with the IS-F & LFA. Maybe Nissan's accounting dept saw small to no profits & decided not to build one, & many other factors that we don't know of.
The IS never had the leverage of "Bigger car for the money" against the Germans like the G, or TL, CTS etc. It is the same size as those cars. Hell the 1IS had RWD and the same I-6 engine as a BMW. The 2IS has been *****ed at over and over for a small backseat. It still met sales targets.
Lexus tried to position the ES as sporty ,the 1992-1996 model actually was a 10 best model, offered a manual, did well in reviews. The marketed as sporty again for the 3ES in 1997 but it was clear it was not a sporty car and buyers were older and cruised in it.
Enter the IS which debuted as an IS 200 in Europe in 1997 and as a Toyota Altezza in Japan. Even the IS 200 featured an I-6 engine, RWD, its own platform and it aimed directly at the 3 series.
Ironincally, Infiniit had the I35 and G35 I think together for a year. They dropped the I35 stating they were going to be a RWD only company to fight BMW. Now its 2013 with a FWD JX, huge QX etc. Should maybe have kept that model since the current MAxima is a really good car and an Infiniti version might sell ala ES.
Lexus management is no joke, these guys/gals are smart. Their strategy of 2 distinct models at the same class has worked. You can have a near 3 series identical car in the IS or a softer "tweener" in the ES. They tried to squeeze in one more car, the HS, but that clearly didn't work here (its the best seller in Japan). Since Lexus has 2 distinct models, they can push the IS very far to the left and the ES very far to the right. They don't need much middle ground and looking at the new IS they have done just that. For comparison the other brands with one model in this class have to manage that middle, as in the case of the TL which again is by far mostly a FWD cushy car like the ES. Acura for reasons not known to man, has offered the TL and TSX and even RSX all offering similar performance, size, looks with the TSX and TL sharing the 30-40k segment. Its a really odd strategy since they are all way to similar, including the Accord.
Mercedes seems to want some of the 2 car, same price pie as the new CLA is coming at 30k and from what I've heard it is going to fly off shelves. BMW has the 1/2 coming and Audi is bringing an A3 sedan next time.
Simply different methods to offering/selling cars.
In regards to no true IPL with a real engine upgrade etc, this interview as mind boggling. The supposed Japanese BMW rationalized it wasn't needed due to sales. Huh?
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/2...iew-road-test/
A straight shooter, Mason was quick to clear the air, noting that the IPL is not meant to be the equivalent of Mercedes-Benz AMG or BMW M, telling us "Listen, we could have developed a new G Coupe with our 5.0-liter or the 5.6 [V8]. But at what cost? Sure, it would have been a halo performance vehicle, but traditionally those don't sell well." In other words, we all need to remember that the auto business remains a for-profit enterprise.
Last edited by LexFather; 02-07-13 at 12:39 PM.
02-07-13, 01:18 PM
#57
Lexus management is no joke, these guys/gals are smart. Their strategy of 2 distinct models at the same class has worked. You can have a near 3 series identical car in the IS or a softer "tweener" in the ES. They tried to squeeze in one more car, the HS, but that clearly didn't work here (its the best seller in Japan). Since Lexus has 2 distinct models, they can push the IS very far to the left and the ES very far to the right. They don't need much middle ground and looking at the new IS they have done just that. For comparison the other brands with one model in this class have to manage that middle, as in the case of the TL which again is by far mostly a FWD cushy car like the ES.
Mercedes seems to want some of the 2 car, same price pie as the new CLA is coming at 30k and from what I've heard it is going to fly off shelves.
Simply different methods to offering/selling cars.
Mercedes seems to want some of the 2 car, same price pie as the new CLA is coming at 30k and from what I've heard it is going to fly off shelves.
Simply different methods to offering/selling cars.
As for size of cars, the evolution seems to be getting larger in size, comparing car to size is not as effective as comparing it to the class that the vehicle is design to. The 2007-2013 Infiniti G is similar size to that of the 5 Series at the time, with as much leg room in the rear seat, but the car was clearly designed to compete with the 3 series, in terms of performance. Though the IS is smaller, when one tests it on a closed circuit track, there's only one person in the vehicle, the driver. You can compare apple to apple, doesn't mean both apples are the same size.
Most likely, it comes down to preference for the overall package that an individual looks for, whether it be rear passenger room, performance, visual aesthetics, technology, comfort, handling, reliability, etc... at the time, the 2008 G35xS stood out as the best entrly level sport luxury IMO.
I definitely agree, the accounting/business department & management of Lexus/Toyota don't mess around, & similar for Nissan/Infiniti, having recovered from the brink of bankruptcy in the late 90's.
Mercedes will fly off the shelf because people look more at the aesthetic visuals (average person) of the up & coming CLA, without cross referencing to what other model it closely resembles to. If Lexus tried to pull it off, a lot of people would come out & almost immediate say it's 2 of the same car, while turning a blind eye to Mercedes. Ignorant people still claims that a Lexus is a rebadge Toyota.
02-07-13, 02:21 PM
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Really explains why the older ES looks sportier & better IMO. As for size of cars, the evolution seems to be getting larger in size, comparing car to size is not as effective as comparing it to the class that the vehicle is design to. The 2007-2013 Infiniti G is similar size to that of the 5 Series at the time, with as much leg room in the rear seat, but the car was clearly designed to compete with the 3 series, in terms of performance. Though the IS is smaller, when one tests it on a closed circuit track, there's only one person in the vehicle, the driver. You can compare apple to apple, doesn't mean both apples are the same size.
Most likely, it comes down to preference for the overall package that an individual looks for, whether it be rear passenger room, performance, visual aesthetics, technology, comfort, handling, reliability, etc... at the time, the 2008 G35xS stood out as the best entrly level sport luxury IMO.
I definitely agree, the accounting/business department & management of Lexus/Toyota don't mess around, & similar for Nissan/Infiniti, having recovered from the brink of bankruptcy in the late 90's.
Mercedes will fly off the shelf because people look more at the aesthetic visuals (average person) of the up & coming CLA, without cross referencing to what other model it closely resembles to. If Lexus tried to pull it off, a lot of people would come out & almost immediate say it's 2 of the same car, while turning a blind eye to Mercedes. Ignorant people still claims that a Lexus is a rebadge Toyota.
As for size of cars, the evolution seems to be getting larger in size, comparing car to size is not as effective as comparing it to the class that the vehicle is design to. The 2007-2013 Infiniti G is similar size to that of the 5 Series at the time, with as much leg room in the rear seat, but the car was clearly designed to compete with the 3 series, in terms of performance. Though the IS is smaller, when one tests it on a closed circuit track, there's only one person in the vehicle, the driver. You can compare apple to apple, doesn't mean both apples are the same size.Most likely, it comes down to preference for the overall package that an individual looks for, whether it be rear passenger room, performance, visual aesthetics, technology, comfort, handling, reliability, etc... at the time, the 2008 G35xS stood out as the best entrly level sport luxury IMO.
I definitely agree, the accounting/business department & management of Lexus/Toyota don't mess around, & similar for Nissan/Infiniti, having recovered from the brink of bankruptcy in the late 90's.
Mercedes will fly off the shelf because people look more at the aesthetic visuals (average person) of the up & coming CLA, without cross referencing to what other model it closely resembles to. If Lexus tried to pull it off, a lot of people would come out & almost immediate say it's 2 of the same car, while turning a blind eye to Mercedes. Ignorant people still claims that a Lexus is a rebadge Toyota.
And I thought the IS was a rebadged corolla
.. (Things said by "enthusiasts" on the Internet lol)
02-07-13, 02:44 PM
#59
