NorCalIS

iTrader: (5)

This topic has been beat into the ground on a number of threads... SMH.

J3ffrey

The 250 is perfect for buyers like me........ who want luxury at rock bottom prices.

I've got an SS Camaro sitting in the garage for when I want to go beat up some 350's..

And I'm thankful it's not a 4 cyl. Every single 4cyl I've driven (never owned one) has been loud and tons of vibration, especially as they get older. A nice calm six is perfect for this car.

Would I go 350 if they were the same price, of course. However in this case all I wanted was the luxury part. Go buy a honda!

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Slower and less efficient are side effects of a means of controlling an automobile that I simply prefer, so yes, I will base my buying decision on that preference.

I have heard that some consider the 6-speed manual in the IS250 to be an inferior design. Be that as it may it's just unfortunate. I might consider a manual 1-series or 3-series over the only manual Lexus if I found it to be aggravating to drive.

I have a pretty good factory manual transmission in my SC300 and despite it not being a new car I like the execution Lexus gave the drivetrain.


I've looked into the costs as far as goes swapping a Getrag V160 into my current vehicle. It isn't necessary unless you're pushing a lot of horsepower. I don't know why the 2IS needs such an overbuilt high performance transmission for its meager output.

I will say this, however: if the 2IS or just the 416hp IS-F were offered with a manual transmission on the level of that Getrag I do believe you'd have a good number of buyers for it considering that it is such a low-volume and *high performance* automobile. You can get a BMW 335i, M3 or 1-Series M with a 6-speed manual transmission so...? It's just Lexus choosing to do what they want to do.

Yes, absolutely. And that means that in coming years I'm going to have a very uneven playing field of vehicles to choose from that are AWD or RWD with a manual transmission. I'm aware and it is unfortunate but that is what I want when I commit to spend a not insubstantial amount of money on an automobile. I am one of few, apparently, but that doesn't change my preferences.

Rikg35

Because racecar

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

and that's fine, but as noted you'll be paying a lot more for the BMW and get a far less reliable car in the bargain.

If that's worth having a 3rd pedal knock yourself out.

Yup, we have one of those in our driveway. It's, compared to the 250, a nice, easy, smooth transmission. And they sold so few of them they dropped the option entirely for the car soon after.


Apparently they felt a need to put it in the Supra, despite the fact the IS350 is just as quick stock vs. stock (and gets far better mileage while doing it)

Given Lexus has been the #1 selling lux brand for nearly all of the last decade, and that Toyota is sitting on mountains of cash from being so profitable in that period, I'm going to allow they might know a little bit better than you if they'd actually get a lot of takers for the manual and if they're losing any significant # of sales not offering one... and that the answer they came up with was no.

Everyone gave them crap in 2001 when the IS300 showed up in auto only. So they added a manual. Sales were still never better than a fraction of what they are for the 2IS which sells 97% automatics.

Toyota is run by some fairly saavy folks. If they were actually losing enough sales that they'd be better off offering more Lexus manuals, they'd offer them.


And again, that's fine, you're 100% totally entitled to like what you like.

But with the advent of 6-8 speed autos with DCT or IS-F type paddle shifting, what you like makes little business (or performance, or economy) sense anymore to most car manufacturers, Lexus included.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Kurtz, at this point I am of the opinion that we're just bolstering our initial positions in this discussion and that neither of us can really contribute to the other's situation of loving new and more automated technology or loving older an more involving technology.

I'll make this my final response on the matter.

You get what you pay for and despite stellar reliability I don't get much character from many Lexus products. BMW's actually have a very good factory warranty program. VANOS valve train cars such as the 333hp inline six M3 had some issues but that does not describe every BMW. Maintenance is treated differently with BMW's but the brand actually caters to people who enjoy driving. Does that cost more money? You betcha, but price wasn't my focus in this discussion.

That's interesting to know about the transmission. It's also clear to me that one of the reasons the manual transmission model (or any automatic SC300) didn't retain a sporting reputation was that Toyota crippled the design by leaving the car naturally aspirated so as not to upstage the cruiser-like V8. Toyota/Lexus did that to themselves and thus rendered the non-V8's as not having a high performance reputation regardless of having a manual or automatic.

They felt a need to put it in the Supra because Toyota wanted an extremely overbuilt and robust transmission behind an extremely overbuilt and robust turbocharged engine capable to putting out WELL OVER 280-320 horsepower. Racing Supra MKIV's did not stay at the road car horsepower levels. They wanted to prove their dominance in racing after the Skyline GT-R R32 blew away all competitors. In fact, Nissan was so impressed with the Supra's V160/Getrag 233 transmission design they eventually commissioned an AWD version from Getrag for the 1999 GT-R models.

The IS350 needs better than shelved 5-speed manual designs or the IS250 6-speed designs but that 2GR-FSE V6 engine isn't putting out nearly the horsepower and torque 2JZ-GTE twin turbo engines are expected to shower onto their transmissions.

Furthermore, the 2JZ-GTE and all 1993-1998 (and up to 2002 for Japanese models) Supras were originally designed with acceptable 1990's fuel economy standards in mind. These cars, again, were detuned racing designs made into streetable, reliable sportscars that could be driven every day if the owners so desired.

Toyota/Lexus never designed the 2GR-FSE IS350's to be so easily converted for racing use or to put out nearly the same horsepower. It's apples to oranges. The Lexus simply doesn't NEED a Getrag transmission capable of such feats because the drivetrain and all its design goals are completely different. That's not a hit on manuals so much as it is a hit on outsourcing to an expensive company to build a bulletproof manual transmission when one isn't needed for the design goals.

I get it that car companies and generally all companies have to by design turn a profit to survive and thrive. Economics 101. But some companies take risks or cater to tastes out of the mainstream and still survive brilliantly.

The way you talk about their economic status and the shrewd reasons for their success reminds me of why it is so difficult in my industry to get unconventional ideas funded that don't have the absolute widest, blandest potential while also remaining "quirky" and at the same time completely incapable of provoking anyone's brain.

Lexus does what they do with their option sheets and make money hand over fist doing it. Wonderful! Their example and your support of their supposed universal superiority, however, is not convincing to me. I don't feel that every automaker need follow their example. Hell, they could at least offer a dual clutch manual in something other than the extremely rare LF-A showcase car.

To Lexus especially yes because they have their ideas about what makes an ideal luxury car. To Ferrari and many super car manufacturers yes because they are interested in bolstering their F1 racing image. While I still wish Ferraris used manuals in all but one car I can understand why they have abandoned them because their philosophy is to bring F1 technology to their road cars. I get that.

Manuals apparently makes business sense currently for the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Scion FR-S, Porsche 911, Porsche Cayman, Porsche Boxster, upcoming SRT Viper, nearly all turbocharged Subarus, most BMW's and so many other sport trim levels of other makes. It is already a niche feature. It will become harder to find and yes it is less efficient and not as fast as twin clutch transmission designs or a few automatics but at least for now there sure are a lot of sportscars (and a couple of fuel misers) that still offer them.

Either you like the things or you don't. You clearly don't and I clearly do so that's that. I am not and haven't been arguing the technological superiority of manuals with you. Lexus doesn't like to offer them and that means that despite how good their cars are otherwise I am not interested in them, except for my SC300 and the IS250.

I have nothing more to say on this.