i wish Lexus had put a high reving 4 cylinder engine in our 250s instead
03-19-12, 05:30 PM
#61
^ But a high revving 4 cylinder motor isn't as luxury as a smooth V6. The IS250 is still a luxury car, and most buyers would appreciate the smoothness of the V6 over a high revving 4cyl. If you want more power, that's exactly what the IS350 is for. You can't really compare the IS250 to the Mercedes 190's at all.
I agree that the IS350 should be offered with 6 speed manual though. That is something I hope is offered in the future.
I agree that the IS350 should be offered with 6 speed manual though. That is something I hope is offered in the future.
03-19-12, 08:50 PM
#64
^ But a high revving 4 cylinder motor isn't as luxury as a smooth V6. The IS250 is still a luxury car, and most buyers would appreciate the smoothness of the V6 over a high revving 4cyl. If you want more power, that's exactly what the IS350 is for. You can't really compare the IS250 to the Mercedes 190's at all.
I agree that the IS350 should be offered with 6 speed manual though. That is something I hope is offered in the future.
I agree that the IS350 should be offered with 6 speed manual though. That is something I hope is offered in the future.
I look at these cars and see an excellent reputation, great build quality and engineering but not much going on in the drivetrain department. Lexus has all but killed my interest in the car. The 350 not having a manual-- good a car as it is for anyone who likes automatics-- is a total deal breaker for me.
Lexus clearly knows their core demographics and that is fine. It's just disappointing to walk into one of their showrooms and feel I'd be more at home at a BMW dealer because I am not forced into automatic transmissions in their sportier models and they are starting to use something I love: turbochargers on four-cylinders. BMW's are refined luxury cars, are they not?
I just cannot fathom why Lexus doesn't even allow someone the option except on their most basic entry level car.
03-20-12, 06:23 AM
#65
the manual thing has been covered in depth in other threads.
it's an antique technology that nearly nobody in the US is interested in anymore. Even when they offer it (in the 250) the take rate is less than 5%. Natonwide across all brands the take rate on manuals is nearly as bad, and a good chunk of those are the bottom-of-the-barrel kias where they're trying to save a few bucks not paying to upgrade to an automatic.
the manual IS250 gets the worst mileage of any model- even worse than the AWD one.
F1 figured out years ago clutch pedals make cars slower around a race track too and switched to paddle shifters. Even folks like ferrari and porsche are coming around on this- want the fastest porsche that offers all drivetrains? it won't have a clutch pedal in it.
If you want to see the future of rowing your own gears go try out M mode in an IS-F... it's vastly quicker at shifting that anything with a clutch pedal, and that type of tech (along with the DCT stuff) offers excellent fuel efficiency too with the number of gears it handles.
Manuals anymore is doing more work for an inferior result.
I know some folks while telling you to get off their lawn will insist it's more "fun" but I'm sure there were folks in 1912 when electric engine starters came around who would opine how a good traditional hand-crank-start engine was the only way to really communicate with your vehicle too... and we see how that turned out
it's an antique technology that nearly nobody in the US is interested in anymore. Even when they offer it (in the 250) the take rate is less than 5%. Natonwide across all brands the take rate on manuals is nearly as bad, and a good chunk of those are the bottom-of-the-barrel kias where they're trying to save a few bucks not paying to upgrade to an automatic.
the manual IS250 gets the worst mileage of any model- even worse than the AWD one.
F1 figured out years ago clutch pedals make cars slower around a race track too and switched to paddle shifters. Even folks like ferrari and porsche are coming around on this- want the fastest porsche that offers all drivetrains? it won't have a clutch pedal in it.
If you want to see the future of rowing your own gears go try out M mode in an IS-F... it's vastly quicker at shifting that anything with a clutch pedal, and that type of tech (along with the DCT stuff) offers excellent fuel efficiency too with the number of gears it handles.
Manuals anymore is doing more work for an inferior result.
I know some folks while telling you to get off their lawn will insist it's more "fun" but I'm sure there were folks in 1912 when electric engine starters came around who would opine how a good traditional hand-crank-start engine was the only way to really communicate with your vehicle too... and we see how that turned out
03-20-12, 10:14 AM
#66
I know some folks while telling you to get off their lawn will insist it's more "fun" but I'm sure there were folks in 1912 when electric engine starters came around who would opine how a good traditional hand-crank-start engine was the only way to really communicate with your vehicle too... and we see how that turned out
03-20-12, 11:48 AM
#67
I love my V6... has enough torque for my daily driving purpose.
All my previous car were 4 bangers and they were noisy as hell during acceleration. In fact, this is the smoothest car I have ever driven... I got compliments from my bro-in-law in regards to how smooth and refined the engine is.
I don't see a point in dumping a 4 banger into a Luxury car... it will be like buying another Corolla.
All my previous car were 4 bangers and they were noisy as hell during acceleration. In fact, this is the smoothest car I have ever driven... I got compliments from my bro-in-law in regards to how smooth and refined the engine is.
I don't see a point in dumping a 4 banger into a Luxury car... it will be like buying another Corolla.
03-20-12, 03:15 PM
#69
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a is 250 with a inline4 turbo would be smooth and nice , it would work pretty well because you have to use premium anyways and a big 4 cylinder would have adequate exhaust gasses to spool up a decent size snail..
but thats not what toyota and lexus is about anymore the 1jz/2jz/sw20/7m motors are not what lexus want to use in there cars.. im speaking about there turbo motors
but thats not what toyota and lexus is about anymore the 1jz/2jz/sw20/7m motors are not what lexus want to use in there cars.. im speaking about there turbo motors
03-20-12, 04:02 PM
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Although I can think of how fun an IS250 with a 4 banger will be, I'd have to say it's neither befitting of Lexus nor is it a product people would be:
Consider this, Lexus is known for its smooth, quite ride. Quite honestly, a high revving 4 banger would have no low end torque making it miserable to drive around town. If you throw in a turbo, chances are it'll have turbo lag. Neither of which is ideal for the typical Lexus driver. And remember, even though many IS250 drivers are young(er) on this forum, the majority of IS250 owners in the US are typically older who 1) don't care too much about power and fun but rather how comfortable it is. Thus it's also not the most appealing product Lexus can offer to its majority customer base. Plus, dropping the IS with a 4 banger would most likely lower its value. One potential car buyer would rather spend $35k on an 2nd Gen IS250 V6 rather than a $35k 3rd Gen IS250 I4. It just doesn't sound appealing. If you sold it at say $30k or $29k, then sure it'd sell more but it'd be now 100% directly compete with the TSX who people will prefer for the "fun factor." This makes the IS250 I4 completely useless. The V6 honestly differentiates it just enough for it to have a more distinct customer base than the TSX.
I could go on but I'll leave it at that.
Now I will say this, Lexus should make a 2 door coupe to compete with the 370z, G37, A5, 3 series coupe or C class coupe. I'd put in the IS350's engine and making a slightly lighter, maybe shorter wheel base coupe to make it just that much better.
Consider this, Lexus is known for its smooth, quite ride. Quite honestly, a high revving 4 banger would have no low end torque making it miserable to drive around town. If you throw in a turbo, chances are it'll have turbo lag. Neither of which is ideal for the typical Lexus driver. And remember, even though many IS250 drivers are young(er) on this forum, the majority of IS250 owners in the US are typically older who 1) don't care too much about power and fun but rather how comfortable it is. Thus it's also not the most appealing product Lexus can offer to its majority customer base. Plus, dropping the IS with a 4 banger would most likely lower its value. One potential car buyer would rather spend $35k on an 2nd Gen IS250 V6 rather than a $35k 3rd Gen IS250 I4. It just doesn't sound appealing. If you sold it at say $30k or $29k, then sure it'd sell more but it'd be now 100% directly compete with the TSX who people will prefer for the "fun factor." This makes the IS250 I4 completely useless. The V6 honestly differentiates it just enough for it to have a more distinct customer base than the TSX.
I could go on but I'll leave it at that.
Now I will say this, Lexus should make a 2 door coupe to compete with the 370z, G37, A5, 3 series coupe or C class coupe. I'd put in the IS350's engine and making a slightly lighter, maybe shorter wheel base coupe to make it just that much better.
03-20-12, 10:04 PM
#72
the manual thing has been covered in depth in other threads.
it's an antique technology that nearly nobody in the US is interested in anymore. Even when they offer it (in the 250) the take rate is less than 5%. Natonwide across all brands the take rate on manuals is nearly as bad, and a good chunk of those are the bottom-of-the-barrel kias where they're trying to save a few bucks not paying to upgrade to an automatic.
the manual IS250 gets the worst mileage of any model- even worse than the AWD one.
F1 figured out years ago clutch pedals make cars slower around a race track too and switched to paddle shifters. Even folks like ferrari and porsche are coming around on this- want the fastest porsche that offers all drivetrains? it won't have a clutch pedal in it.
If you want to see the future of rowing your own gears go try out M mode in an IS-F... it's vastly quicker at shifting that anything with a clutch pedal, and that type of tech (along with the DCT stuff) offers excellent fuel efficiency too with the number of gears it handles.
Manuals anymore is doing more work for an inferior result.
I know some folks while telling you to get off their lawn will insist it's more "fun" but I'm sure there were folks in 1912 when electric engine starters came around who would opine how a good traditional hand-crank-start engine was the only way to really communicate with your vehicle too... and we see how that turned out
it's an antique technology that nearly nobody in the US is interested in anymore. Even when they offer it (in the 250) the take rate is less than 5%. Natonwide across all brands the take rate on manuals is nearly as bad, and a good chunk of those are the bottom-of-the-barrel kias where they're trying to save a few bucks not paying to upgrade to an automatic.
the manual IS250 gets the worst mileage of any model- even worse than the AWD one.
F1 figured out years ago clutch pedals make cars slower around a race track too and switched to paddle shifters. Even folks like ferrari and porsche are coming around on this- want the fastest porsche that offers all drivetrains? it won't have a clutch pedal in it.
If you want to see the future of rowing your own gears go try out M mode in an IS-F... it's vastly quicker at shifting that anything with a clutch pedal, and that type of tech (along with the DCT stuff) offers excellent fuel efficiency too with the number of gears it handles.
Manuals anymore is doing more work for an inferior result.
I know some folks while telling you to get off their lawn will insist it's more "fun" but I'm sure there were folks in 1912 when electric engine starters came around who would opine how a good traditional hand-crank-start engine was the only way to really communicate with your vehicle too... and we see how that turned out
That's great.
As a buyer those things mean nothing to me. I'm not trying to win races. An automatically shifting daily driver, even if it's a 911, is incredibly boring to me even if it has pretty little F1 style paddles. I'm old fashioned I guess but when I'm told there is no manual transmission option especially in a high performance luxury automobile I lose interest.
I'll go to whichever manufacturer offers me what I actually want rather than what I'm told I *should* want.
Now if I were going to build a track racing car and I could afford a truly modern design I'd probably go with the newer and faster technology because the object is to win with whatever resources are available.
A street car, however, isn't prepped for GT2 or GT3. It's just a conveyance and thus can afford the driver whatever options or eccentricities he or she so desires. I'll take the "antiquated" manual transmission technology every day of the week even if it's slower and ever so slightly less efficient than an automatic. Unless it matters to be the fastest shifting to every stoplight, what is the problem?
03-21-12, 06:42 AM
#73
See... I don't really care about getting the best fuel economy or having the fastest shifting transmission. I just prefer to use three pedals and a movable stick to change the gears in my car's transmission. Yeah, Ferrari has abandoned manuals save for the California and Porsche is considering making the GT3 available only with a PDK dual-clutch auto-manual.
That's great.
As a buyer those things mean nothing to me. I'm not trying to win races. An automatically shifting daily driver, even if it's a 911, is incredibly boring to me even if it has pretty little F1 style paddles. I'm old fashioned I guess but when I'm told there is no manual transmission option especially in a high performance luxury automobile I lose interest.
I'll go to whichever manufacturer offers me what I actually want rather than what I'm told I *should* want.
Now if I were going to build a track racing car and I could afford a truly modern design I'd probably go with the newer and faster technology because the object is to win with whatever resources are available.
A street car, however, isn't prepped for GT2 or GT3. It's just a conveyance and thus can afford the driver whatever options or eccentricities he or she so desires. I'll take the "antiquated" manual transmission technology every day of the week even if it's slower and ever so slightly less efficient than an automatic. Unless it matters to be the fastest shifting to every stoplight, what is the problem?
That's great.
As a buyer those things mean nothing to me. I'm not trying to win races. An automatically shifting daily driver, even if it's a 911, is incredibly boring to me even if it has pretty little F1 style paddles. I'm old fashioned I guess but when I'm told there is no manual transmission option especially in a high performance luxury automobile I lose interest.
I'll go to whichever manufacturer offers me what I actually want rather than what I'm told I *should* want.
Now if I were going to build a track racing car and I could afford a truly modern design I'd probably go with the newer and faster technology because the object is to win with whatever resources are available.
A street car, however, isn't prepped for GT2 or GT3. It's just a conveyance and thus can afford the driver whatever options or eccentricities he or she so desires. I'll take the "antiquated" manual transmission technology every day of the week even if it's slower and ever so slightly less efficient than an automatic. Unless it matters to be the fastest shifting to every stoplight, what is the problem?
well, hey, you like what you like, and if slower and less efficient is what you like then you'll base your buying on that.
But it's unreasonable to expect most companies, especially ones who are pushing luxury, efficiency, and performance, to cater to that desire.
Thus does it make little sense for Lexus to offer a manual... you're one of a very few, and fewer every year, who actually want one in the first place, and virtually every objective advantage to them no longer exists due to advances in automatic/DCT transmission technology.
They threw one, and kind of a crap one, in the 250 because they could cheaply adapt one from another vehicle and it made their offering more attactive in some overseas markets where manual uptake is a lot higher than the US... but developing an expensive high performance manual for the 350/F made no business sense at all... look at the cost of the supra 6-speed sometime and see how little sense that'd make cost-wise in the 2IS, especially with only a few % of buyers wanting a stick anyway.
So by all means keep buying what you like, but don't be surprised if that leaves you fewer and fewer choices over time, and don't be surprised when most brands cease offering the option at all.
03-21-12, 11:09 AM
#75
I've gone over 400 miles on a tank in my 350 lots of times... 70-80 mph with cruise control set, all highway... not difficult at all.
My car generally puts up 28-30 mpg highway at those speeds, which only requires 13.3-14.3 gallons of fuel. With 6 gears including 2 OD gears there's no reason to chug at 50 mph for good mileage.
My car generally puts up 28-30 mpg highway at those speeds, which only requires 13.3-14.3 gallons of fuel. With 6 gears including 2 OD gears there's no reason to chug at 50 mph for good mileage.