HELP! dealer sale scam?...
09-22-09, 04:59 PM
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HELP! dealer sale scam?...
I'm in the middle of finalizing the purchase of a beautiful 39k mi '06 IS250...
***scroll to bottom for cliffs***
I was at the dealership this past weekend negotiating a price. I got the salesman to agree to my price after a lot of haggling and he went to start the paperwork... came back and said his manager pulled the plug on the deal when he 'realized' he did brakes at all 4 corners.
I asked, 'so you did the pads at all 4 corners?' He replied yes, quoting up a few hundred bucks more and we could get the deal through. I called his bluff, stating wholesale front/rear should be under $100. He did the whole "Lexus = special pads" routine, I did the whole "Lexus = Toyota pads" routine. My SO and I got up and left the deal.
Sure enough, he called 2 days later in the morning and offered to do $100 over our negotiating target. We took it, and put a $500 deposit down over the phone, with an agreement to come in the next morning to finalize paperwork. We also asked for him to have a copy of the work order ready from their system for the brake work they claimed to do... This is when stuff started getting weird. He didn't seem to want to pull up the 'work order' or admit its existence.
A short bit later in the day, he called back saying he couldn't meet us in the morning, and that he had to do something for his kid.... but he could bring all the paperwork by my work to finalize the deal. I said no go. I am seeing patients all day, and cannot disrupt an already busy schedule. He seemed intent on coming to us, instead of us coming to finish the paperwork at the dealership... to conveniently 'forget' the work order perhaps?? Either way, its not like a quick fingering of the pad thickness couldn't tell 40k miles worth of wear vs brand new.
The next morning came (today), and I got a call at the end of the work day... the salesguy said that the tire pressure light came on, and he had to take it to the Lexus dealership (this is an Infiniti dealership selling the IS250 as a trade-in) down the street to turn it off, but not to worry; its all covered under warranty.
He then proceeded to mention that the dealership found that either the front or rear brakes needed to be replaced/fixed.... and that we could discuss how I wanted to pay for it. WTF? The game of buying a car is fun and all, but crud like this is maddening.
So... what I need is the part # and price of OEM front/rear pads/rotors/calipers.... basically whatever routine maintenance parts he could throw at me. I know all the online retailers for oem german car parts, but unfortunately am not familiar with the go-to places for Lexus.
Cliffs: Buying used IS250 from Infiniti dealer- walk out on negotiation- agree to call-back price - now trying to scam more $$ out of me with having to do 'work' that was claimed to have been done weeks ago before the car was even listed.
***scroll to bottom for cliffs***
I was at the dealership this past weekend negotiating a price. I got the salesman to agree to my price after a lot of haggling and he went to start the paperwork... came back and said his manager pulled the plug on the deal when he 'realized' he did brakes at all 4 corners.
I asked, 'so you did the pads at all 4 corners?' He replied yes, quoting up a few hundred bucks more and we could get the deal through. I called his bluff, stating wholesale front/rear should be under $100. He did the whole "Lexus = special pads" routine, I did the whole "Lexus = Toyota pads" routine. My SO and I got up and left the deal.
Sure enough, he called 2 days later in the morning and offered to do $100 over our negotiating target. We took it, and put a $500 deposit down over the phone, with an agreement to come in the next morning to finalize paperwork. We also asked for him to have a copy of the work order ready from their system for the brake work they claimed to do... This is when stuff started getting weird. He didn't seem to want to pull up the 'work order' or admit its existence.
A short bit later in the day, he called back saying he couldn't meet us in the morning, and that he had to do something for his kid.... but he could bring all the paperwork by my work to finalize the deal. I said no go. I am seeing patients all day, and cannot disrupt an already busy schedule. He seemed intent on coming to us, instead of us coming to finish the paperwork at the dealership... to conveniently 'forget' the work order perhaps?? Either way, its not like a quick fingering of the pad thickness couldn't tell 40k miles worth of wear vs brand new.
The next morning came (today), and I got a call at the end of the work day... the salesguy said that the tire pressure light came on, and he had to take it to the Lexus dealership (this is an Infiniti dealership selling the IS250 as a trade-in) down the street to turn it off, but not to worry; its all covered under warranty.
He then proceeded to mention that the dealership found that either the front or rear brakes needed to be replaced/fixed.... and that we could discuss how I wanted to pay for it. WTF? The game of buying a car is fun and all, but crud like this is maddening.
So... what I need is the part # and price of OEM front/rear pads/rotors/calipers.... basically whatever routine maintenance parts he could throw at me. I know all the online retailers for oem german car parts, but unfortunately am not familiar with the go-to places for Lexus.
Cliffs: Buying used IS250 from Infiniti dealer- walk out on negotiation- agree to call-back price - now trying to scam more $$ out of me with having to do 'work' that was claimed to have been done weeks ago before the car was even listed.
Last edited by Blurr6701; 09-22-09 at 05:04 PM.
09-22-09, 05:07 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
I'd be pretty pissed by this point. But if the car is one of a kind and fits your bill, it still might be worth it. If not, you can always search for others.
One fear we all have when buying a car and finding a nice one is the feeling it's the only one out there. But time proves there will always be another nice car and deal to come along and make itself available. Good luck and keep us posted.
One fear we all have when buying a car and finding a nice one is the feeling it's the only one out there. But time proves there will always be another nice car and deal to come along and make itself available. Good luck and keep us posted.
09-22-09, 05:18 PM
#4
ISs are sold in such high volume I'm sure you could find another one like you're looking at unless it's a manual; that will obviously be more difficult to find. If the dealer were trying to nickle and dime me for $100 like I would have just laughed and left. To me, whatever "work" the dealer chooses to do is at their own discretion and should not be tacked onto the price of the car after the fact. If a dealer is asking $30k for a car, I could care less if it has a new engine or not, they are asking that price and that's the price I am negotiating from.
You can go here to find OEM components with part numbers: http://sewellpartsonline.com/
If I were in your shoes, I would already be looking elsewhere for my car...
You can go here to find OEM components with part numbers: http://sewellpartsonline.com/
If I were in your shoes, I would already be looking elsewhere for my car...
09-22-09, 05:45 PM
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Just got off the phone with the salesmonkey @ home on his cell...
-Asked him to refresh me on what the story was... That I'm feeling like there is some sort of misunderstanding.
-He stated that it was either pads or rotors on the rear of the car that needed to be done, couldn't remember since he was at home.
-I reminded him that as someone who is a professional in the automotive industry (own and operate a side business manufacturing parts for european motorsports), 40k for rotors is a tad unrealistic, so that leaves only pads...
-I reminded him nicely that he stated (and negotiated the price with the knowledge of) all 4 corners had been serviced with new pads as of the day we walked in this past weekend.
-He stumbled and asked me to repeat what I said.
-He said he or his manager must have been mistaken, and that now with the new work done, they weren't going to make enough profit on the car ($45 for a set of pads is breaking your margin?!?!?!?!)
-I asked where the car was... if it was back at their dealership.
-He responded that yes, it was.
-I asked that if I requested that work order, that there wouldn't be any suprises.
-He responded that no, there wouldn't be.
-I asked, if it was XXXX or XXXX that was he was a direct report to as his boss.
-I then said, 'great. I will plan on being down there to see the car when you open tommorrow morning to sort this out.'
We'll see what happens. Getting jerked around like this, may just retract the deposit out of principle and buy elsewhere if I don't like how it goes if I have to go up the chain.
-Asked him to refresh me on what the story was... That I'm feeling like there is some sort of misunderstanding.
-He stated that it was either pads or rotors on the rear of the car that needed to be done, couldn't remember since he was at home.
-I reminded him that as someone who is a professional in the automotive industry (own and operate a side business manufacturing parts for european motorsports), 40k for rotors is a tad unrealistic, so that leaves only pads...
-I reminded him nicely that he stated (and negotiated the price with the knowledge of) all 4 corners had been serviced with new pads as of the day we walked in this past weekend.
-He stumbled and asked me to repeat what I said.
-He said he or his manager must have been mistaken, and that now with the new work done, they weren't going to make enough profit on the car ($45 for a set of pads is breaking your margin?!?!?!?!)
-I asked where the car was... if it was back at their dealership.
-He responded that yes, it was.
-I asked that if I requested that work order, that there wouldn't be any suprises.
-He responded that no, there wouldn't be.
-I asked, if it was XXXX or XXXX that was he was a direct report to as his boss.
-I then said, 'great. I will plan on being down there to see the car when you open tommorrow morning to sort this out.'
We'll see what happens. Getting jerked around like this, may just retract the deposit out of principle and buy elsewhere if I don't like how it goes if I have to go up the chain.
Last edited by Blurr6701; 09-22-09 at 05:57 PM.
09-22-09, 05:55 PM
#7
So... what I need is the part # and price of OEM front/rear pads/rotors/calipers.... basically whatever routine maintenance parts he could throw at me. I know all the online retailers for oem german car parts, but unfortunately am not familiar with the go-to places for Lexus.
No, what you need is to call him back and say this:
"You informed me the brakes had just been serviced on all 4 corners. So you now have the choice of selling me the car for the -exact- price we agreed on, including the work order showing brakes have been recently serviced on all 4 corners at your expense, or finding a different sucker to lie to about why you need to change the price you already agreed to."
Then stick to what you just told him.
There's plenty of 2ISes out there, 250s especially, some even sold by people who won't baldly try robbing you like this guy is.
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09-22-09, 07:08 PM
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Ok, so I'm hearing from an acquaintance whose wife owns an '06 IS250 that Lexus "may" warranty their brakes for up to "60k-ish"..... it sounds a little odd to me, considering brakes are a wear item that are highly dependant upon driving style (kill a set of pads in a track session).
Could someone either confirm or refute this? Thanks!
Could someone either confirm or refute this? Thanks!
09-22-09, 07:32 PM
#9
oem brakes are considered wear and tear items, so unless the authorized service center bungled the brake job, or somehow it was deemed defective from the factory, they're not covered by under the factory warranty. if it was a third party that bungled it, i don't see how you should be responsible for THEIR actions.
now, what i'm confused about is what the pressure light has anything to do with the brakes. if it was a brake light error that got kicked up because of the brakes, then i understand. but the tire pressure light gets kicked up when there's not enough tire pressure in the tires. simply, the tire pressure light should have nothing to do with the brakes.
if anything, i suspect that there's something that's not being explained properly on their end. if this deal is still worth closing, i would get to the bottom of it. anything short of a clear and obvious explanation backed up by paperwork, and it's time to move on.
now, what i'm confused about is what the pressure light has anything to do with the brakes. if it was a brake light error that got kicked up because of the brakes, then i understand. but the tire pressure light gets kicked up when there's not enough tire pressure in the tires. simply, the tire pressure light should have nothing to do with the brakes.
if anything, i suspect that there's something that's not being explained properly on their end. if this deal is still worth closing, i would get to the bottom of it. anything short of a clear and obvious explanation backed up by paperwork, and it's time to move on.
09-22-09, 07:43 PM
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Thanks for the clarification.
The pressure light had nothing to do with brakes... the 'claimed' story is that while the dealership was turning off the light, it was discovered brakes needed work...
no matter which way you slice it, the changing storys and facts stink BAD. I'll be having them prove everything on paper down to the last tech that passed gas onto the passenger seat and what it smelled like.
The pressure light had nothing to do with brakes... the 'claimed' story is that while the dealership was turning off the light, it was discovered brakes needed work...
no matter which way you slice it, the changing storys and facts stink BAD. I'll be having them prove everything on paper down to the last tech that passed gas onto the passenger seat and what it smelled like.
09-22-09, 08:08 PM
#11
turning off the tire pressure light would involve putting air into the tires, and possibly checking the tires for signs of puncture(s).
if the latter was true, then they might have unmounted one of the wheels to repair a tire puncture, and it was during that time they happened to discovered that the brakes needed work. unless someone can check the brakes with the wheels/tires on, i would imagine that a brake inspection would require them to unmount the wheels.
so now not only do you need to see what was done for the brake job, but also if one or more tire was patched.
not to discourage you, but imo this could snowball.
if the latter was true, then they might have unmounted one of the wheels to repair a tire puncture, and it was during that time they happened to discovered that the brakes needed work. unless someone can check the brakes with the wheels/tires on, i would imagine that a brake inspection would require them to unmount the wheels.
so now not only do you need to see what was done for the brake job, but also if one or more tire was patched.
not to discourage you, but imo this could snowball.
09-22-09, 08:14 PM
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I honestly cannot even comprehend why you're still dealing with these people. The surcharge because the car had a recent brake-job done is enough to make me walk out on a deal.
I was IS F shopping for a friend a couple of months back and one of the guys we went to see owns this CPO Toyota dealership on the South Shore of Montreal. I pointed out that the tires on the rear of the car were finished and he said that he had bought the tires already. Now we've been watching this car on AutoTrader for the past couple of months and the price has been going down about $1000 a month... the tires, I'd imagine, cost about $2000 at least and the price hasn't gone up one cent. Now that's an honest man.
I was IS F shopping for a friend a couple of months back and one of the guys we went to see owns this CPO Toyota dealership on the South Shore of Montreal. I pointed out that the tires on the rear of the car were finished and he said that he had bought the tires already. Now we've been watching this car on AutoTrader for the past couple of months and the price has been going down about $1000 a month... the tires, I'd imagine, cost about $2000 at least and the price hasn't gone up one cent. Now that's an honest man.
09-23-09, 06:54 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
Why would you EVER pay for work that needed to be done to a car you are buying. Tell them to put it in saleable condition, and in the condition represented to you, for the price agreed upon, or lose a sale. Plain and simple.
09-23-09, 09:09 AM
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Well, we woke up early this morning and went down to the dealer... arrived 45 min before sales opened to throw him off his game.
The car was sitting at the front of the lot on display, where it was before.... I walked over to it as soon as I stepped out of the MZ3 to have a look at the brakes. Surprise, surprise!! What is staring me back in the face are none other than 4 corners of 40k mile pads and rotors!
I was going to have fun with this....
We strolled around the lot a bit more, eyeballing a graphite 10k mi S2000, and all the new Infinitis lined up.
Walked through the sliding doors and onto the killing floor. A minute or two go by, and we saw the jr sales ***** in the back getting ready for his day. Our eyes met, and he disappeared, reappearing about 10 min later with 1 of the 2 mysterious work orders... only this work order from lexus was a quote... no actual work done. I asked where the other one was.... the one he claimed they executed on the brakes weeks ago. He asked, "Why?". LOL. I said that if the work he claims was done, there'd be a work order, and that as an interested customer, we have the right to review the work done. I asked him to verify that the work was, in fact done. He said "Yes, of course it was done." He then led us over to his desk to sit. I stood over him and said, "So, Henry, if we take a walk out to the parking lot right now, I'm going to see new brakes on that car??". He replied, "Yes".
I motioned him to follow me as I walked towards the door... he followed.
We got to the car, I pointed at the wheels, and asked him, "So, Henry, tell me what you see here...". He either mumbled or didn't say anything... I can't remember because I was raging inside, ready to unleash pwnage.
"I'll tell you what you're seeing.... See that? Those are pads and rotors on all four corners that haven't been touched since they left the ****ing dealership 40k miles ago!!"
-blank stare-
I angrily reiterated the timeline of negotiation events up until present... "Do I need to get John (his manager) out here to tell him how you ****ed up?!"
"umm... John is out today."
"Ok, what about Adam? ... or better yet how about George, your GM?! You think you can jerk us around, and lie to us??"
"I'm not jerking you arou..."
"What the **** would YOU call it then? What ****ed up definition of ****ing someone over exists on your planet?!"
*at this point, I'm not sure if there's a host of morning customers watching along with the entire service dept 50 ft away, or how badly the gf is embarrassed to be standing there watching it... I was in tunnel-vision Ari Gold mode*
"You lied about the god damn brakes on Sat, you ***ed up again on Tuesday, and ****ed up again just now, when we see that nothing was ever done..."
"But wha..."
"HOLD on there! Tell ME what the hell that is. If its not lying, trying to scam a few extra bucks, then you've got a serious ****ing communication issue. What did you expect was going to happen when we found out? I don't appreciate being jerked around, and I ESPECIALLY don't like being lied to my face."
"Well, oka..."
"Here's whats going to happen. You are going to un-**** this deal, we are rolling back the price negotiated and previously agreed upon, or else we are taking the deposit back NOW and going somewhere that will not **** with us and jerk us around, and George will get to hear about how his sales guy screwed the pooch on this one. I'm sure he'd be thrilled with the reputation you're building him! I'd expect this kind of **** from some little lot up in Dorchester, but not from a major manufacturer dealership like this."
"Ok, ok, we'll do your price..."
We went back inside and did the paperwork for $1.5k over the trade-in value, plus refinished wheels all around. Did a final walk around before leaving, noting any imperfections on the car (3 small chips on the rear bumper, 1 on the front lip, the rest immaculate). Picking the car up plated and ready to go Friday morning.
...the gf was hell-bent on an AWD IS250, and as we looked at them, she decided she wanted only a white one, and only with the black leather interior.... limited the options locally. Needless to say, it is a great looking car, with another year on the warranty, and extremely clean.
The car was sitting at the front of the lot on display, where it was before.... I walked over to it as soon as I stepped out of the MZ3 to have a look at the brakes. Surprise, surprise!! What is staring me back in the face are none other than 4 corners of 40k mile pads and rotors!
I was going to have fun with this....We strolled around the lot a bit more, eyeballing a graphite 10k mi S2000, and all the new Infinitis lined up.
Walked through the sliding doors and onto the killing floor. A minute or two go by, and we saw the jr sales ***** in the back getting ready for his day. Our eyes met, and he disappeared, reappearing about 10 min later with 1 of the 2 mysterious work orders... only this work order from lexus was a quote... no actual work done. I asked where the other one was.... the one he claimed they executed on the brakes weeks ago. He asked, "Why?". LOL. I said that if the work he claims was done, there'd be a work order, and that as an interested customer, we have the right to review the work done. I asked him to verify that the work was, in fact done. He said "Yes, of course it was done." He then led us over to his desk to sit. I stood over him and said, "So, Henry, if we take a walk out to the parking lot right now, I'm going to see new brakes on that car??". He replied, "Yes".
I motioned him to follow me as I walked towards the door... he followed.
We got to the car, I pointed at the wheels, and asked him, "So, Henry, tell me what you see here...". He either mumbled or didn't say anything... I can't remember because I was raging inside, ready to unleash pwnage.
"I'll tell you what you're seeing.... See that? Those are pads and rotors on all four corners that haven't been touched since they left the ****ing dealership 40k miles ago!!"
-blank stare-
I angrily reiterated the timeline of negotiation events up until present... "Do I need to get John (his manager) out here to tell him how you ****ed up?!"
"umm... John is out today."
"Ok, what about Adam? ... or better yet how about George, your GM?! You think you can jerk us around, and lie to us??"
"I'm not jerking you arou..."
"What the **** would YOU call it then? What ****ed up definition of ****ing someone over exists on your planet?!"
*at this point, I'm not sure if there's a host of morning customers watching along with the entire service dept 50 ft away, or how badly the gf is embarrassed to be standing there watching it... I was in tunnel-vision Ari Gold mode*
"You lied about the god damn brakes on Sat, you ***ed up again on Tuesday, and ****ed up again just now, when we see that nothing was ever done..."
"But wha..."
"HOLD on there! Tell ME what the hell that is. If its not lying, trying to scam a few extra bucks, then you've got a serious ****ing communication issue. What did you expect was going to happen when we found out? I don't appreciate being jerked around, and I ESPECIALLY don't like being lied to my face."
"Well, oka..."
"Here's whats going to happen. You are going to un-**** this deal, we are rolling back the price negotiated and previously agreed upon, or else we are taking the deposit back NOW and going somewhere that will not **** with us and jerk us around, and George will get to hear about how his sales guy screwed the pooch on this one. I'm sure he'd be thrilled with the reputation you're building him! I'd expect this kind of **** from some little lot up in Dorchester, but not from a major manufacturer dealership like this."
"Ok, ok, we'll do your price..."
We went back inside and did the paperwork for $1.5k over the trade-in value, plus refinished wheels all around. Did a final walk around before leaving, noting any imperfections on the car (3 small chips on the rear bumper, 1 on the front lip, the rest immaculate). Picking the car up plated and ready to go Friday morning.
...the gf was hell-bent on an AWD IS250, and as we looked at them, she decided she wanted only a white one, and only with the black leather interior.... limited the options locally. Needless to say, it is a great looking car, with another year on the warranty, and extremely clean.