Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
10-21-05, 12:48 AM
#61
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by Percy
On the brochure it looks great. Titanium. Neodynium. DSP. 24bit. MARK LEVINSON. LEXUS. Flashy flashy. Ooh yay!
Bottom line.
CRAP.
Bottom line.
CRAP.
To the untrained ears such as mine, I had no idea the 2nd-gen ML system is that bad.
I was very much blown away to say the least in the one chance I had to try the ML system in the new GS with my favorite test CDs. I thought the bass in particular was much more satisfying than the 1st-gen ML in even the LS430. The ML system in the new GS is even the only system so far to ever score a perfect 10.0 in Edmunds' stereo evaluation.
Originally Posted by Edmunds
Bass is tight, accurate and never overbearing while highs come through with flawless accuracy.
Last edited by XeroK00L; 10-21-05 at 12:54 AM.
10-21-05, 01:00 AM
#62
Lexus Connoisseur
What happened to talking about the stock stereo and the ML upgrade for the New IS?Not to start a flame war here, but it's not like you're going to drive down the freeway with all the road/wind noise cruising at 70mph listening to how clear the highs are or how voices sound nasal while on the road. 
Most of us know for a fact, an aftermarket component system that is selected carefully will outdo many stock systems. That's a given. Let's stay on track and talk about the New IS' ML and Pioneer systems. Talk about the aftermarket in a new thread, send your O/T to PM or better yet, let's talk about ML vs. Aftermarket here: Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics .
Most of us know for a fact, an aftermarket component system that is selected carefully will outdo many stock systems. That's a given. Let's stay on track and talk about the New IS' ML and Pioneer systems. Talk about the aftermarket in a new thread, send your O/T to PM or better yet, let's talk about ML vs. Aftermarket here: Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics .
Last edited by flipside909; 10-21-05 at 01:04 AM.
10-21-05, 09:49 AM
#63
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by flipside909
What happened to talking about the stock stereo and the ML upgrade for the New IS?Not to start a flame war here, but it's not like you're going to drive down the freeway with all the road/wind noise cruising at 70mph listening to how clear the highs are or how voices sound nasal while on the road.
***With the relatively quiet interior of the IS at highway speeds, you'll notice. But, it should be a fairly straight highway as most of the concentration should be on driving... ***
Most of us know for a fact, an aftermarket component system that is selected carefully will outdo many stock systems. That's a given. Let's stay on track and talk about the New IS' ML and Pioneer systems. Talk about the aftermarket in a new thread, send your O/T to PM or better yet, let's talk about ML vs. Aftermarket here: Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics .
***With the relatively quiet interior of the IS at highway speeds, you'll notice. But, it should be a fairly straight highway as most of the concentration should be on driving...
***Most of us know for a fact, an aftermarket component system that is selected carefully will outdo many stock systems. That's a given. Let's stay on track and talk about the New IS' ML and Pioneer systems. Talk about the aftermarket in a new thread, send your O/T to PM or better yet, let's talk about ML vs. Aftermarket here: Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics .
Percy
10-21-05, 09:55 AM
#64
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by cooney
Percy, what would you do for the stock Pioneer system in the IS250/350?
Stock speakers are 1", 2½" & 6½" in each door and an 8" "subwoofer" on the rear shelf.
Would you run Dynaudio speakers two-way in each door, with their MD 100 tweeter and MW 160 low-range, which should be close substitutes for the smallest and largest of the stock speakers? In that event, I assume you'd use the Dynaudio two-way cross-over.
***You could do alot of different configs, but the easiest way is to run a MD100 in the stock location and a MW160 in the stock location. Should work out nicely.***
Or would you recommend a three-way system using Dynaudio speakers? If so, please elaborate.
***You could...but the mid for Dyn is the MD140, and it's not a small 2.5 inch, but rather a 3 inch mid. The physical size is 4.7 inches in diameter. The voice coil ITSELF is 3 inches in diameter!***
In either case, would you substitute the Dynaudio MW 180 or MW 190 for the stock subwoofer?
***MW180 as it's a 9 inch diameter woofer. Should work out.***
Finally, if you were doing this in phases, which speakers would you replace first, i.e., what's the most bang for the buck? I'd assume the front speakers.
***Front speakers first!!!***
Thanks,
cooney
Stock speakers are 1", 2½" & 6½" in each door and an 8" "subwoofer" on the rear shelf.
Would you run Dynaudio speakers two-way in each door, with their MD 100 tweeter and MW 160 low-range, which should be close substitutes for the smallest and largest of the stock speakers? In that event, I assume you'd use the Dynaudio two-way cross-over.
***You could do alot of different configs, but the easiest way is to run a MD100 in the stock location and a MW160 in the stock location. Should work out nicely.***
Or would you recommend a three-way system using Dynaudio speakers? If so, please elaborate.
***You could...but the mid for Dyn is the MD140, and it's not a small 2.5 inch, but rather a 3 inch mid. The physical size is 4.7 inches in diameter. The voice coil ITSELF is 3 inches in diameter!***
In either case, would you substitute the Dynaudio MW 180 or MW 190 for the stock subwoofer?
***MW180 as it's a 9 inch diameter woofer. Should work out.***
Finally, if you were doing this in phases, which speakers would you replace first, i.e., what's the most bang for the buck? I'd assume the front speakers.
***Front speakers first!!!***
Thanks,
cooney
Percy
10-21-05, 10:45 AM
#65
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Percy's write-up is outstanding. Even though he obliterates what I likely just payed $1,000 for, I really appreciate knowing there is room for improvement.
Here is where I stand on the issue:
I went back for a 2nd test drive yesterday. I had an IS 350 to myself for 30 minutes. Without listening to the ML first, or after, I ran the standard stereo through my test CD. I'm as far from an audiophile as you can get, and that might a good thing, I'm not sure.
The standard system really sounded outstanding to me. I have done this before, and became disappointed after switching off an ML equipped GS430. This time I stayed away from the ML and remained really impressed with the stock system.
As for all of the things Percy mentioned, they don't really apply to me since my ear is dumb. My perception of sound quality between the two was extremely noticeable. I have not heard ML in an IS.
I'm really glad to hear what Percy has to say about this, and am going to take the opportunity to upgrade my speakers.
I am curious about the difference between the LS and GS. Getting into an LS is like crawling into a cotton ball. The interior accoustics are much, much different. I wonder if that has something do with it. I would agree that the IS might be more like the GS than LS.
One last thing:
Percy said "Dyns with Pioneer sound much better than GS with ML". I'm comparing stock Pioneer vs ML here. Percy, do you remember the "do you see where I'm going with this" comment you made in another thread? You were talking about how good ML would be with Dyns. I'd rather see a review about ML with Dyns vs Pio with Dyns.
IMHO, Pio with Dyns vs ML with stock is almost like apples and oranges.
I do think there is value in a recommendation to upgrade Pio with Dyns, but we're still missing how much better ML would be with Dyns. THAT might salvage the need to upgrade to ML.
Here is where I stand on the issue:
I went back for a 2nd test drive yesterday. I had an IS 350 to myself for 30 minutes. Without listening to the ML first, or after, I ran the standard stereo through my test CD. I'm as far from an audiophile as you can get, and that might a good thing, I'm not sure.
The standard system really sounded outstanding to me. I have done this before, and became disappointed after switching off an ML equipped GS430. This time I stayed away from the ML and remained really impressed with the stock system.
As for all of the things Percy mentioned, they don't really apply to me since my ear is dumb. My perception of sound quality between the two was extremely noticeable. I have not heard ML in an IS.
I'm really glad to hear what Percy has to say about this, and am going to take the opportunity to upgrade my speakers.
I am curious about the difference between the LS and GS. Getting into an LS is like crawling into a cotton ball. The interior accoustics are much, much different. I wonder if that has something do with it. I would agree that the IS might be more like the GS than LS.
One last thing:
Percy said "Dyns with Pioneer sound much better than GS with ML". I'm comparing stock Pioneer vs ML here. Percy, do you remember the "do you see where I'm going with this" comment you made in another thread? You were talking about how good ML would be with Dyns. I'd rather see a review about ML with Dyns vs Pio with Dyns.
IMHO, Pio with Dyns vs ML with stock is almost like apples and oranges.
I do think there is value in a recommendation to upgrade Pio with Dyns, but we're still missing how much better ML would be with Dyns. THAT might salvage the need to upgrade to ML.
10-21-05, 11:23 AM
#66
Percy, great write-up. Remember though, we're in a CAR, not at home in our home media room. Road & wind noise will take away any minute detail of a top-end speaker.
I am not too sure about simply swapping ML or Pioneer speakers for Dynaudio speakers. Those Dynaudios are power-hungry as are most high-end aftermarket speakers...if you're not giving them enough juice, then you're doing a disservice to them and your ears! The weak link would then be the ML/Pioneer amplifier.
I am not too sure about simply swapping ML or Pioneer speakers for Dynaudio speakers. Those Dynaudios are power-hungry as are most high-end aftermarket speakers...if you're not giving them enough juice, then you're doing a disservice to them and your ears! The weak link would then be the ML/Pioneer amplifier.
10-21-05, 11:55 AM
#67
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally Posted by tigmd99
Percy, great write-up. Remember though, we're in a CAR, not at home in our home media room. Road & wind noise will take away any minute detail of a top-end speaker.
***True. Now IF ML actually did 1000 hours of REAL productive listening and measurements as well as tuning, then they would actually get somewhere. ML is hyping all the "DSP chain" and "preserving delicate detail", but are they in reality? No. Truth is, there is more sophisticated tuing equipment available in a car enviroment than any home enviroment. You rarely find parametric EQs in home setups (they're the standard graphic eqs) but you do find them in car audio. Time correction can be found in both home/car but the more sophistaced being for the car (F#1 status). If ML had a REAL high end DSP, then they would combat road and wind noise in perhaps a possible sound canceling scheme. F#1 has this...and they're not hyping a 100,000 dollar "snotty" home system or their laurels and accomplishments.***
I am not too sure about simply swapping ML or Pioneer speakers for Dynaudio speakers. Those Dynaudios are power-hungry as are most high-end aftermarket speakers...if you're not giving them enough juice, then you're doing a disservice to them and your ears! The weak link would then be the ML/Pioneer amplifier.
***True. Now IF ML actually did 1000 hours of REAL productive listening and measurements as well as tuning, then they would actually get somewhere. ML is hyping all the "DSP chain" and "preserving delicate detail", but are they in reality? No. Truth is, there is more sophisticated tuing equipment available in a car enviroment than any home enviroment. You rarely find parametric EQs in home setups (they're the standard graphic eqs) but you do find them in car audio. Time correction can be found in both home/car but the more sophistaced being for the car (F#1 status). If ML had a REAL high end DSP, then they would combat road and wind noise in perhaps a possible sound canceling scheme. F#1 has this...and they're not hyping a 100,000 dollar "snotty" home system or their laurels and accomplishments.***
I am not too sure about simply swapping ML or Pioneer speakers for Dynaudio speakers. Those Dynaudios are power-hungry as are most high-end aftermarket speakers...if you're not giving them enough juice, then you're doing a disservice to them and your ears! The weak link would then be the ML/Pioneer amplifier.
Percy
10-21-05, 12:00 PM
#68
Moderator - Electronics Forum
[QUOTE=GonzoBuggs]
Percy said "Dyns with Pioneer sound much better than GS with ML". I'm comparing stock Pioneer vs ML here. Percy, do you remember the "do you see where I'm going with this" comment you made in another thread? You were talking about how good ML would be with Dyns. I'd rather see a review about ML with Dyns vs Pio with Dyns.
QUOTE]
So would I!!!
Percy
Percy said "Dyns with Pioneer sound much better than GS with ML". I'm comparing stock Pioneer vs ML here. Percy, do you remember the "do you see where I'm going with this" comment you made in another thread? You were talking about how good ML would be with Dyns. I'd rather see a review about ML with Dyns vs Pio with Dyns.
QUOTE]
So would I!!!
Percy
10-21-05, 04:17 PM
#70
Hm, I dont think it is really fair to compare GS ML system in IS forums... who knows, maybe it was tuned better in IS? In any case, we should not make assumptions...
Otherwise, for the same budget of 1k, can you make stock Pioneer sound better than ML? (installation included of course) If not, then comparison itself should mention this :-).
Otherwise, for the same budget of 1k, can you make stock Pioneer sound better than ML? (installation included of course) If not, then comparison itself should mention this :-).
10-21-05, 04:39 PM
#71
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Originally Posted by spwolf
Hm, I dont think it is really fair to compare GS ML system in IS forums... who knows, maybe it was tuned better in IS? In any case, we should not make assumptions...
Otherwise, for the same budget of 1k, can you make stock Pioneer sound better than ML? (installation included of course) If not, then comparison itself should mention this :-).
Otherwise, for the same budget of 1k, can you make stock Pioneer sound better than ML? (installation included of course) If not, then comparison itself should mention this :-).
I think Percy has made a valuable point. There are lots of people out there who didnt want to wait 3-4 months for ML, and might be disappointed that they couldnt get Mark Levinson when they wanted it. Percy has given them an amazing opportunity to possibly exceed ML with a small investment.
What is missing is that it is likely that ML is more than worth it. If Pioneer sounds so much better with a Dyn upgrade, what does ML sound like with that same upgrade??
Either way, people without ML can rejoice as they too can have a higher level of audio quality. That was the whole purpose of getting ML to begin with; limited upgrade options. Percy has blown the doors off that theory.
10-21-05, 08:28 PM
#72
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Remember when you're driving, you certainly can't claim ML is superior than Pioneer. Too much ambience noise when the car is moving.
For home audio is another matter.
For home audio is another matter.
10-21-05, 08:44 PM
#73
Lexus Connoisseur
The ML/Nav system is advantageous over the base Pioneer w/Nav in a sense DVD playback isn't available for the Pioneer. That's a clear winner for those who want DVD playback in their car.
10-21-05, 09:12 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by tomrx330
Remember when you're driving, you certainly can't claim ML is superior than Pioneer. Too much ambience noise when the car is moving.
For home audio is another matter.
For home audio is another matter.
Compared to my '98 Honda Civic, the road noise in the IS is almost non-existent. I know it's there, but it really feels silent to me after getting out of that horrible car.
Again, I'm not a sophisticated listener, so the draw to ML for me is the more powerful bass and louder sound without distortion. I honestly can't tell if it's clearer or not. It just sounds better for reasons I can't explain.
I do understand what you're saying though. I just think it applies more to those with a more intelligent ear.
10-22-05, 05:26 AM
#75
Well, Percy is comparing a $7-10,000 system to ML...and then complaining why the ML does not sound AS GOOD. Well, if Lexus could get $7000-10K extra from people who buy ML-equipped Lexus, then i am sure that Lexus can make a system that will match or beat Percy's dream system.
The Dynaudio speakers alone cost more than $1000! And yet, the Pioneer/Dynaudio system does not sound as good as LS430's ML...and only slightly beat out GS430 ML (according to Percy's bias ears, considering that he does not want to suffer buyer's remorse subconciously).
Or another way to put it...with the same amount of money, you can get the whole ML system with DVD NAVI ......OR...... if you go aftermarket, then you can ONLY get the Alpine F1 headunit without speakers or amplifier. Which do you think will sound better??!!
BIG question (and only question) here is...can you match ML by spending the EQUIVALENT AMOUNT on aftermarket goods?? I doubt it.
Apples to apples, right?
The Dynaudio speakers alone cost more than $1000! And yet, the Pioneer/Dynaudio system does not sound as good as LS430's ML...and only slightly beat out GS430 ML (according to Percy's bias ears, considering that he does not want to suffer buyer's remorse subconciously).
Or another way to put it...with the same amount of money, you can get the whole ML system with DVD NAVI ......OR...... if you go aftermarket, then you can ONLY get the Alpine F1 headunit without speakers or amplifier. Which do you think will sound better??!!
BIG question (and only question) here is...can you match ML by spending the EQUIVALENT AMOUNT on aftermarket goods?? I doubt it.
Apples to apples, right?
Last edited by tigmd99; 10-22-05 at 05:31 AM.