parms

I'm looking for a new car, and it will be either an IS300, BMW 325Ci/325i/330Ci/325i.

These are the things I am looking for:

Quick - I like to get away quickly from traffic lights, etc. I have found that a 0-100km/h of around 7 seconds is good enough.
Reasonable rear accommodation - I have a 14 month baby to carry around, so I need good access to the rear with enough room to carry people in the back.
Safe - I'd like to think I can walk away after an accident.
Decent quality
Reliable
Superb handling
Decent re-sale value

I also have a 2001 Lexus RX300.

I am in Toronto (Canada), so I can only comment on what we have here.

The MSRP of a new 2002 IS300, 5sp, is Cdn$46,135 (+freight/pdi/taxes...) fully loaded.

A BMW 330i in equivalent equipment is about Cdn$55K, so there is roughly Cdn$9K difference.

A BMW 325Ci equivalently equipped is around Cdn$49,500.

The BMWs do not have a Homelink transmitter, but who cares.

There is a reason for the price difference between the IS300 and BMW 330i, and it's NOT only because of the Marque (although there is an element of that). When I looked at the IS300, I was very disappointed by the following things:

- The rear seats don't fold down
- The trunk hinges are those awful "crush your luggage types", whereas BMW use the non-interfering struts (VW use those struts on Jettas).
- The hood on the IS is held up by a manual stick. BMWs use struts again
- BMW use Montana Leather in their cars and it is definitely feels superior to the leather in the Lexus. (Personally, I prefer the leatherette in the BMWs).
- Lexus do not include servicing for three years.

These are just examples, and you may not care for these things, but it shows that there are definitely places where Lexus have made short-cuts, although I did not get a chance to investigate any more differences.

The costs of these "short cuts" build up. This of course means that it costs less to build a Lexus IS3 - The same goes for the Acura TL. For me, this means that the cars are almost similarly priced, and that perhaps there is a small amount of difference due to the "BMW Marque".

When I drove the Lexus, though, things were a little different. I have to admit that the handling on the 2002 IS300 was superb, although I did have more "fun" in the 330Ci. I was not *as* happy with the handling on the 330i sedan (with sports suspension ), but apparently the 2002 BMWs will improve the tuning of their sports suspension.

So, I will go for another test drive of the Lexus, but it seems that I will probably be getting a 2002 330Ci.

ming 2.7T

If your leaning toward 330ci, think about the Audi S4.
Nice car. AWD. About the same size. Dont know the price where you are for one though.

Lexus_IS300

s4 cost about the same as a 330ci...if you are wanting one, you better get it, there will not be production for it for another 2yrs after this last 2001 batch is gone! 250hp bi-turbo, awd, easier to modify and extract power. who needs a 330

parms

I did consider an S4. It does have impressive specs and magazine reviewers tend to like it. But these are some of the reasons why I did not go for it:

1. I used to have an Audi A4 1.8Tq. After the trouble(s) I had with it I swore off Audis.
2. I'm not into modding either, so I don't really care for turbos. I actually prefer normally aspirated engines.
3. Something that drew me towards the IS300, the BMW engine is 6-in line. It really does make a difference in the overall feel of the vehicle.
4. Audis generally have poor re-sale value. I know - I took a bath on my A4!
5. The look of the S4 does nothing for me.
6. Speed isn't everything.

Having just bought an RX300 in July, I really only wanted to spend about Cdn$45K before taxes (the price of an IS300). This means a nicely equipped 325Ci or a base 330i. An S4 is about Cdn$55K before taxes, so it is more than I'd like to spend. I've actually put a deposit on a 2002 325Ci a couple of days ago:
Silver
Sport
Premium

The cost will probably be about $Cdn48K before taxes - but I can change my mind in the next few days.

Lexus_IS300

many people will tell you, is300 is much more fun than a 325i!

parms

How do you define "fun"? Does this mean that the handling is superior? This maybe correct. But how marginal is it?

Also, the IS300 does have more torque/power, granted. But the 0-100km/h times are almost the same.

The thing is that, although the Lexus is decent value for *performance*, I would like to re-iterate examples of features that are lacking, and as such make the *whole* car less value for money (see my first post above):

- The rear seats do not fold down
- The trunk hinges are those awful "crush your luggage types", whereas BMW use the non-interfering struts
- The hood on the IS is held up by a manual stick. BMWs use struts again
- Only driver's window has one touch feature
- Lexus do not include servicing for three years
- (subjective) The overall look of the dash is not as I would like it; I don't like the chronometer look of the dials
- Heel and toe proved difficult for me (but that would probably be something to get used to)

I'm sure there are features that the BMW has which do not exist on the IS300 (for saving money).

As I mentioned before, to some people these are non-issues. For me, these are important.

gsintensive

Well just go ahead and buy you BMW, why bother starting the thread? when you think BMW is superior to IS300 in these many ways? I am too tired to even start the objective argument when you start the "subjective" opinion in the dashboard. I consider IS300 to be a superior car than 325i. and there are lots of reasons for it. (especially the 02 model) but until you are really serious about it, I wouldn't waste my time.

have fun with your 325i, and enjoy reading the rear badge of the IS300 manual/auto.

parms

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gsintensive
Well just go ahead and buy you BMW, why bother starting the thread? when you think BMW is superior to IS300 in these many ways? I am too tired to even start the objective argument when you start the "subjective" opinion in the dashboard. I consider IS300 to be a superior car than 325i. and there are lots of reasons for it. (especially the 02 model) but until you are really serious about it, I wouldn't waste my time.

have fun with your 325i, and enjoy reading the rear badge of the IS300 manual/auto. [/QUOTE

I started the thread because I wanted opionins on my thoughts and, frankly, I was hoping someone would actually tell me good reasons (other than speed and *perceived* value) why the IS300 is superior. No one did, and it came time to decide. I was not trying to offend anyone. In fact, if you read my posts, I never said that the IS300 is a bad car. I was deciding how to spend $45,000+taxes. I was seriously considering the IS300, but certain things were bothering me - I will always think that the IS300 is excellent value for money, though.

I also started this thread because many other people have/will be presented with this decision, and I thought this could be a good place to discuss the virtues of either vehicle, especially for the IS300.

As far as the "subjective" opinion (as you stated), I belive that if there are enough other *better* reasons, then the dashboard becomes irrelevant. In fact the other things that bother me could also be irrelevant, if the right set of reasons were presented to me.

I would also like to mention that I do not think the BMW is a "superior" car. I just said that the equipment in the Lexus is lacking, and that is why it costs less than a BMW 3 Series.

Looking at rear IS300 badge is not a problem for me, but you may be overestimating the speed of the IS300 since it has never happened with my Jetta VR6.

I can *still* get out of the order for the Bimmer, so if you have good reasons, I wouldn't mind you telling me.

parms

What makes BMWs "sub-par"? Are you referring to the fact that there is some perception that these cars are not reliable? JD Powers say that the 3 series *are* reliable (top 10 in reliability - 5 or 6, I can't remember).

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is flawed - there is no justification to your "sub-par" comment (unless I'm missing something).

Actually, the main reason BMW included scheduled maintenance was to compete with the Audi A4, not because they "HAVE TO".

parms

Your opinions, while perhaps valid for 1997, are simply out of date.

For one thing, there is no such thing as a 318, or a 323 any more.

Secondly, BMW have improved their QA processes, such that their vehicles are in the JD Power top 10 - a list used by the industry.

Another thing...how can you discount the JD Power survey? You said you took a sample of friends. JD Powers is like having thousands of friends and taking their opinions - statistically a better picture. And if havong friends is a good place for statistics, I have MANY friends with BMWs, I have owned BMWs and guess what...they're very, very happy.

Also, does that mean that, since the Lexus GS300 (?) was No.1 in JD Powers, I should ignore that too?

Thus, BMW is not sub-par, and neither is the IS300. I still feel that reasoning for thinking that BMWs are sub-par is not justified.

And, like I said, Lexus cut corners to bring the price down.

Tell me something new.

LexusPride

I feel I am qualified to reply here since I own both a Lexus and a BMW. I have a 2001 GS430 and my wife has a 2001 330 convertible. My car has been to the dealer once, for an oil change, while my wife's car has been in 6 times for service, each problem more annoying than the next. Each time it was in for a full day since they were backed up at all 3 dealers I went to, getting me a loaner twice, a Cavaliar and a Sunfire, for a $48k car. For my car, I got a 2001 RX300 Silversport, and it took all of an hour-and-a-half. The top already squeaks, but they tell me that's normal, well not for that much money it shouldn't. As for BMW's standing with JD Powers, it might have something to do with the fact that, since our salesman gave us a sob story how we "had to" fill in our survey card all "Excellent" or he'd lose commission, and then calling my wife at work to verify this, not once but 3 times, this directly contributes to their standing w/JD Powers, per BMW. I have 3 friends who own Bimmers, different models, no more than 4 years old, who swore by them, that is until I said we bought one recently, then the stories came out reluctantly, about the quality and cost of repair. Suffice to say, my wife is starting to think about an SC430 or even a CLK430.

parms

First let me say that I respect the views of the posters here, and let me also say that I am in no denigrating the IS300. On the contrary, if I didn't think the Lexus was worth looking at, I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

I'm very sorry that your BMW experience has not been stellar. I would like to add my own experience, if I may. I have had three Bimmers, a 1998 328is, a 2000 323Ci and a 2001 330i (which replaced the 1998 328is, then was replaced by a Lexus RX300).

I did not have either any reliability or dealer issues. When any of the cars was in for a service, I was given a new(ish) 3 series as a loaner. It may have been the dealership I was with, but I would buy another car from them in a heartbeat.

A friend of mine has a 1999 328is. He loves his car - he took it back once and the problem was solved.

Another friend of mine has a 2000 323Ci. The check engine light came on, but there was a TSB for this and he had the thermostat housing changed.

Other friends of mine also have Bimmers, but I do not know of any issues.

So does that make BMWs sub-par? Not in my opinion.

OTOH, I have to admit that I would never question the reliability of Lexus or Toyota. The RX300 has been in for its first 1600km inspection, and it was dealt with *very* efficiently and very politely. I am very aware of the legendary reputation of Lexus/Toyota, and that is the most compelling reason to get the RX300 over the ML320/ML430.

However, as much as I really like the IS300, the shape/look, its handling, and keeping the relaibility in mind, I have had to yield to practicality - the BMW has certain features that I require - but it wasn't an easy decision.

chiem

The only thing I see that you may "require" is the fold down back seat. Do you really require better hinges for the trunk or hood ? With a RX300, I don't really see why you would need foldable back seats either.

But lets face it; choosing a car is like guessing on a multiple choice question. They say your first instinct is usually the best. If you choose the IS300, you'll always have doubts about backing away from the 325. The grass will appear greener on the other side.

--k

parms

Hood: I only open it when I have to fill up the windscreen washer fluid. Living in Toronto, this is a frequent task in winter and, of course, the easier it is, the better. Not crucial, but then neither is a 6-inline engine.

Trunk: I frequently fill up my trunk with electronic equipment (for business purposes), so the non-intrusive hinges are important, as are the folding seats (or at least I deem them to be). Actually, none of the cars I have had ever had those types of hinges.

RX300: It is true that I have the RX300, but that is for my wife/personal use and I cannot count on using it.
Besides, she chooses not drive stick and I respect that.

Guessing game: well said.

anthracitetarga

iTrader: (1)

If that hood thing bothers u, why dont u just go down to ur local autozone,etc. and buy some struts??