MellonC00

2013 and onward.... when you move the shifter from normal to S (to the left) does it engage "fake" 6 speed in which the transmission shifts by itself just like a regular 6 speed auto box or does it go into a manual mode where I can shift it like a 6 speed manual where I have to move it up and down the gears?

I understand, of course, that this is a CVT and that the 6 speed is not real. I'm just trying to find out whether I can just leave the shifter on the S mode and let it "shift" for itself.

Thanks.

BertL

"D" is for normal driving where the RXh shifts for itself -- it's what I run in 99.99% of the time; I use "S" only on the rare occasion when I'm headed on long downhill grades and want to do some engine braking vs letting my foot do that work via the brakes. In "S" mode you are more in control, but the RX can still upshift if you don't, and it will give you warning beeps if you try to downshift when you shouldn't -- in other words, you're in more control when in "S" mode but the RXh will attempt to not let you do something that will harm the vehicle.

Check out p240-243 of THIS part of the 2013 manual for more info.

MellonC00

I think lawyers in Manhattan who don't drive wrote the manual. On page 223, it says: ●Automatically selecting gears between 1 and 6 according to vehicle speed and driving conditions. But the gear is limited according to selected shift range.

Questions (all related to being in the S mode)

1. Does this mean that the CVT will decide the optimal fixed shift points as if this was a regular 6 speed like any other car? In other words, am I going to be hitting the red-line if I switched over the S mode - 2nd gear while driving at 10 mph but kept it there until say, 50mph. Or does it simply shift "up" to 3rd, and 4th gear sequentially as I simply accelerate to higher speed?

2. if it does shift for itself, does it do that at optimal shift points (say, like a Porsche Tiptronic or Audi DSG) or does it simply wait until it is unsafe to keep it at the same gear hitting the redline?

3. What happens if I leave the shift lever in the 'S' mode, but upshift to '6' so that the transmission is free to use all six gears. Does it,then, downshift as necessary and upshift, again, at optimal RPM? (and not rev the engine until it hits the redline)

BertL

A Technology Specialist at your dealership may be able to provide more detailed information you're looking for. I don't know where the general public would have access to the for-sure answers, unless ones gives it a try to see how good the RXh is at protecting itself (and that isn't going to be me.). Good luck.

MellonC00

I think I'm answering my own questions as I found this response from the IS forum. it say:

If you have the tranny in "S" it allows you to select what gear you want to be in 1-6.

If you keep it in 6th then the tranny will automatically use gears 1-6 ( same thing as "D" mode)

if you keep it in 5th gear then the tranny will automaically use gears 1-5 and will hit the rev imiter at the end of gear 5 instead of shifting past it.

If you keep it in 4th gear then the tranny will automatically use gears 1-4 and will hit the rev limiter at the end of gear 4 instead of shifting past it

If you keep it in 3rd gear then the tranny will automatically use gears 1-3 and will hit the rev limiter at the end of gear 3 instead of shifting past it

If you keep it in 2nd gear then the tranny will automatically use gears 1-2 and will hit the rev limiter at the end of gear 2 instead of shifting past it

If you keep it in 1st gear then the tranny will only stay in first gear....

----------------

of course, these are all "make belief" gears as they are simply points on rubber bands in a Hoover Vacuum cleaner.... errr I meant CVT.

do I have this right?

ericsan13

Yes, except for this part. RXh does not use a conical CVT. It used a power split device similar to the prius.

ericsan13

Hi Bert,

I am intrigued by your use of S to 'downshift' in your hybrid. On those long down hills, does the regenerative braking not provide enough deceleration to prevent the RX from engaging the physical brakes?

Reason I ask is because it seems counter intuitive to downshift when energy can be recovered through regenerative braking.

Thanks,
Eric

BertL

For me, I can probably count the number of times I've used "S-Mode" on both of my hands. If I didn't have it, I wouldn't be a deal breaker. To your point, I do find that I don't have to put on the brakes as much with my RXh as with a non-hybrid -- regeneration does help slow things down, although after having driven RXh for 10+ years, I don't really notice it. Here's the deal though, it is possible to still gain speed as you come down long hills with an RXh... Two examples come to mind:

• There is a very long stretch of interstate going from Vegas to San Diego out in the desert that is downhill for many, many miles... The RXh does a great job recapturing energy in that whole stretch, and while I don't need to put my foot down on the gas for much of that time, if I don't occasionally touch the brakes, my normal 65-70MPH will rapidly climb beyond 85+ if I don't pay attention (love my HUD!) I don't typically use "S-Mode" for whatever reason in this scenario, as I'm traveling at fairly high speed for many miles, so an occasional tap of the brakes is what I end up doing.
• OTOH, long windy roads coming down from the mountains is where I have found "S-Mode" works best for me. Speed is more in the 10-40 MPH range perhaps, with some hairpin type turns with little in the way of protection if you were to go careening off the side (you probably know the type of road I'm describing). Key difference for me here, is I can sort of override the RX with "S-Mode", so I'm not riding the brake as much and as hard as I otherwise would. "S-mode" in this situation is just like how my dad taught me to downshift my first car that had a stick, letting the engine help do some of the braking, so my foot on the brakes are more effective and at least in the old-days wouldn't overheat through constant use.

Actually, I bet most owners never even use "S-Mode" or know what it could be used for on their RXh. . Hope that helps as to where I have found "S-Mode" most useful.

NateJG

And to amplify Bert's narrative a bit -- on those long downhill runs when using the pseudo-gear to help slow the car it is possible (read: Likely) that the regeneration will reach a point to where the batteries cannot (or should not) hold any additional charge -- and then the car's brainbox will cause the engine to turn -- as in adding additional engine retardation/braking force -- which will then, using the electricity necessary to spin the engine, to "scrub off" some energy (from the battery, or otherwise headed to the battery) -- thereby preventing an overcharge of the battery.

For a practical use/example: I recently drove the Tail of the Dragon (US-Hwy 129), which is as described by Bert with respect to cliffs and switchbacks. I used the sport mode (manual) to keep a) the engine in a more spirited speed and b) to use the AWD regeneration braking to slow the car for/during the turns -- much like keeping a "normal" car in second gear for "instantaneous" throttle response (I also used the Sport Mode).

With this mode, I was able to run the Dragon with minimal use of the foot brake -- and have all the power available at an instant (the car performed remarkably well -- as it was a "stand-in" for the BMW Z-4 that I would have taken on that trip, were it not for the kitchen sink packed by wifie for the long weekend).

I, too, have a question as to the advisability or contraindications for using the car in "6th" gear as opposed to simply using the Drive setting.

Lastly, I don't like the drivability of the car in both Econo and Sport mode (one is too "mushy" for me; and the other is too "rubber-bandie") except for when I'm in bumper-to-bumper highway speeds and want to be able to "squirt" into an opening in another lane -- for which the Sport Mode gives the car "Spirit".

As one last unrelated aside (while I have the floor), I just updated my MPG spreadsheet - and for the 36,000 miles on Alexis, she's reporting a cumulative MPG of 27.4 -- and, according to my spreadsheet magic, the onboard MPG calculations are within 1% of what the calculated cumulative MPG reflects -- so I believe the onboard computer completely. And at this rate, it will only take me until 330,000 miles for the fuel savings to offset the $6,600 upcharge for the hybrid (not accounting for savings on brakes, or the fear of electrical issues).

MellonC00

I'm asking these questions as I'm actively looking for a replacement for my 2001 RX Silversport (the darn car just won't die - after 234K miles I'm still on my original transmission and the engine doesn't leak or burn any oil). Before that car I was driving various sports cars from Audi and Mazda all with stick shifts. I'm not a sports car nut but was an enthusiast and understood basic suspension geometry and transmission dynamics.

Yet, as Prius came came out and after having driven the CVT (sorry I meant PSD) I always liked the immediate torque provided by the electric engine proceeded by HP from the ICE. In my opinion this is KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) that uses flywheels but only for the common people like us. Perhaps they will pair up a diesel engine along with a battery AND a KERS system but that'll come later I think (after self driving cars).

As you learn in racing, car handling 101 is to match your RPM (torque output) with various parts of the path of travel so that you maximize torque without screeching off to the cliff or hit another car. Yet, knowing how to apply the torque down to the ground give you ability to dial in understeer and oversteer as you turn that corner. In other words, your right foot becomes part of the handling mechanics of the car.

The problem with CVT and PSD is that the RPM of the ICE has nothing to do with the power applied to your wheels. Since you guys are hybrid drivers you all already knew that and accepted this lack of "connection" for better fuel economy. So I was searching for a way to give me that similar feeling as being in one gear until I decided to change to the next gear where I can at least feel like my torque output is similar to the amount of gas pedal i'm pressing at that time.

And if I'm not mistaken RX450h achieves this "in gear" feeling by not changing the gear ratios like a CVT but by sequentially increasing/decreasing the "drag" of MG2 (or both MG2 and MG3 for AWD) in a step fashion which results in an "in gear" feeling.

I'm not 100% sure about this last statement. But as I read the lawyer-butchered, English abomination document - Owner's Manual - it says that in S mode, the car has "6 levels of engine braking force" which leads me to believe that this is the method used by Toyota to generate the in-gear feeling.

Any thoughts?

NateJG

I suspect that you (like me) are over-thinking/analyzing it.

Suffice it to say that I am pleasantly surprised at the performance and driver feel/control of the (mine is a '13 AWD h) car.

The electronic "nanny" does a wonderful job of not letting me over engage the 2 1/2 tons of cruiser when I forget I'm not in my Z4.

The only thing that might not please you is that, while you can keep the engine RPM and associated engine braking on FOUR wheels, you must keep the radio off and the window down in order to hear the otherwise quiet running powertrain).

In any event, if you choose the wrong "gear", the electro-nanny wont let you hurt anything (and you won't risk telegraphing your mistake to passersby - like you would if you were driving a regular transmission and yanked the engine to redline when you "oopsed").

And geez, I pray I can get 234K miles out of Alexis!!

vlad_a

As Nate has pointed-out, you are over-analyzing. If anything, PSD (thanks for not categorizing it as a regular CVT!), makes the feel better than a conventional automatic. I hate automatics, yet I'm perfectly content with the PSD.

I don't get the whole "manual" automatic shifting. I just don't. When I was test-driving an automatic BMW, the salesperson was shocked that I couldn't do button-shifting. It's an Auto, and I let it do its thing. No matter how many times I tried, I still revert Auto to an Auto. I attribute this to my DDs being true manuals.

I realized something interesting recently. Everyone keeps complaining about CVTs feeling slower because they can't feel engine RPMs change when accelerating. Now, if I want to get a nice launch on my STi, I will keep the RPMs high and will slip the clutch just enough to keep them steady until I'm going fast enough to lock it up. In the end, it feels like a CVT. How about them apples?

P.S.
RXh will automatically apply engine-braking on long steep downhills.

BertL

Yes, but at least in situations like I described a couple posts back, what both my RX400h and RX450h did/does automatically is insufficient to keep MPH from increasing to an unsafe level. I must either apply the brakes more often -- almost "riding them" for miles on end, or use "S-mode" to override my hybrid's built-in engine-braking logic so my brakes can then be used for more intermittent/emergency purposes as we do in normal driving. (Now, if my RX could anticipate the road ahead that I plan to travel on, better than I sometimes can, and incorporate that into it's engine algorithm, I may have a different opinion. Tesla has started in a direction that may lead to logic like that one day with some of the work they are doing trying to present continual miles-to-the-next-recharge and to the next charging station -- incorporating speed, road conditions, altitude changes, weather, etc. that effect battery usage, so it's not in the realm of science fiction.)

There are many variables I know, so IMHO there is no absolute right answer how we each choose to drive our RX. I do agree with you though -- I let my automatics take care of shifting for themselves 99.99% of the time. I had paddle shifters in my previous 335i and current SLK, but I used them on exactly one drive each to see how they worked after I took delivery. I don't drive my cars on a track, don't need that sort of take-off I could maybe get using paddle shifters, and I can't (or don't want to try and) out-think what my car needs gear-wise most of the time. My first couple cars had a stick which I really enjoyed back in the day, but once I moved to the big city, and had to start driving Los Angeles stop-and-go traffic for hours every week -- I switched to automatic and have never looked back.

kitlz

Add me to the list, Bert. I gave up manual 20 years ago and don't miss it, too much

I don't have a '13 or later RX450h but it has S-mode. I also had a 330 with sequential trans shifting, basically the gas version of S-mode minus 6th gear. It was actually the main reason I went with the performance package back then. I've driven the same hilly roads with both RXs. The 330 was more enjoyable downshifting. Admittedly I don't use S-mode too much in the 450h except in the snow. The preference is to let the RXh do the shifting for me and not feel guilty about using the regenerative brakes. By the time I get to the bottom of the hill I can 'fill up' the battery.

vlad_a

Bert, I was pleasantly surprised how well my RXh handled downhills in VW on a road trip last year. I didn't have to ride the brake or "downshift" to keep a steady pace. Once the battery is charged-up, it starts engine-braking. Give it just a tad of gas and you can feel the engine-braking disengage.

I love manual transmissions, however, the pickings are very slim. Toyota Hybrid drivertrain has proven to be the next best choice, short of a pure EV. I don't have to deal with traffic on a regular basis, so I can enjoy doing the shifting myself in my DD.