Crickets
09-30-14, 08:12 AM
#2
No, I don't play soccer!
Woody, I thought I was going to open this up and read a story about crickets hibernating in your 450h, LOL! They're all over the place by me thanks to the recent warm weather. Noisy too.
The non-hybrid 3RX is also a bit slow but far from quiet. There's a few topics that overlap so maybe not so much to post about here.
The non-hybrid 3RX is also a bit slow but far from quiet. There's a few topics that overlap so maybe not so much to post about here.
09-30-14, 10:06 AM
#3
I'm checking this forum daily too and I've noticed it's pretty silent.
Maybe we should start a speculation topic on how the 4RX 450h hybrid system will work?
Electric motors at each wheel? Plug-in capabilities? Li-ion batteries?
Maybe we should start a speculation topic on how the 4RX 450h hybrid system will work?
Electric motors at each wheel? Plug-in capabilities? Li-ion batteries?
09-30-14, 11:31 AM
#4
Lexus Champion
Toyota is very conservative with its technology and would not push something out that has not been proven by time. Any change can negatively affect reliability, and without reliability, Toyota is left with no other core values to drive the brand.
09-30-14, 11:50 AM
#5
Hey Guys - new to the forum. Just recently purchased a '14 450h and was hoping to find a bit more activity on the "h" forum. Agreed this forum is a bit quiet.
Been averaging about 27mpg with mixed driving. Had an IS300 before and wanted something a bit more comfortable and spacious.
Any interesting upgrades anyone has done? I see LED fogs are an option for the 15 450h. Not sure why Lexus didn't go the all LED route in the hybrids (turn signals and all) since they're looking for efficiency.
Been averaging about 27mpg with mixed driving. Had an IS300 before and wanted something a bit more comfortable and spacious.
Any interesting upgrades anyone has done? I see LED fogs are an option for the 15 450h. Not sure why Lexus didn't go the all LED route in the hybrids (turn signals and all) since they're looking for efficiency.
09-30-14, 01:43 PM
#6
No, no and no! This is Lexus we are talking about. Reluctant pursuit of status quo.
Toyota is very conservative with its technology and would not push something out that has not been proven by time. Any change can negatively affect reliability, and without reliability, Toyota is left with no other core values to drive the brand.
Toyota is very conservative with its technology and would not push something out that has not been proven by time. Any change can negatively affect reliability, and without reliability, Toyota is left with no other core values to drive the brand.
I'll keep dreaming about those independent motors though. Let's put that on the extreme side of the speculation scale...
What do you think will be new to the RX450h?
-Eric
09-30-14, 02:07 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
But with the introduction of the 2014 plug-in li-ion prius, a plug-in rx450h could be a good candidate? Especially with the next gen prius around the corner, lexus hybrid buyers need the advanced tech to justify the premium of hybrids.
I'll keep dreaming about those independent motors though. Let's put that on the extreme side of the speculation scale...
What do you think will be new to the RX450h?
-Eric
I'll keep dreaming about those independent motors though. Let's put that on the extreme side of the speculation scale...
What do you think will be new to the RX450h?
-Eric
RX is too heavy to be a plug-in. Plug-in Prius simply adds an auxiliary Li-Ion battery that is charged from the outlet. Once it is depleted (after 11-14 miles), it becomes a dead-weight. The rest of the Prius is the same as non-plug-in, including Ni-Mh traction battery. Now, this only makes sense in a highly-efficient vehicle, such as Pirus. Imagine the size of the battery needed to propel 4,600lbs SUV around. We'd be looking at $12K+ just to go 11 miles in EV mode. Makes no sense at all.
The only Prius that is interesting is the 7-seater V, not available in USDM. That one indeed has a li-ion traction battery.
Independent motors? I think not. They would not work with Toyota's PSD.
IMHO, we will see more of the same in the next 450h. New body, and that's it.
Trending Topics
09-30-14, 02:41 PM
#8
Eric,
RX is too heavy to be a plug-in. Plug-in Prius simply adds an auxiliary Li-Ion battery that is charged from the outlet. Once it is depleted (after 11-14 miles), it becomes a dead-weight. The rest of the Prius is the same as non-plug-in, including Ni-Mh traction battery. Now, this only makes sense in a highly-efficient vehicle, such as Pirus. Imagine the size of the battery needed to propel 4,600lbs SUV around. We'd be looking at $12K+ just to go 11 miles in EV mode. Makes no sense at all.
The only Prius that is interesting is the 7-seater V, not available in USDM. That one indeed has a li-ion traction battery.
Independent motors? I think not. They would not work with Toyota's PSD.
IMHO, we will see more of the same in the next 450h. New body, and that's it.
RX is too heavy to be a plug-in. Plug-in Prius simply adds an auxiliary Li-Ion battery that is charged from the outlet. Once it is depleted (after 11-14 miles), it becomes a dead-weight. The rest of the Prius is the same as non-plug-in, including Ni-Mh traction battery. Now, this only makes sense in a highly-efficient vehicle, such as Pirus. Imagine the size of the battery needed to propel 4,600lbs SUV around. We'd be looking at $12K+ just to go 11 miles in EV mode. Makes no sense at all.
The only Prius that is interesting is the 7-seater V, not available in USDM. That one indeed has a li-ion traction battery.
Independent motors? I think not. They would not work with Toyota's PSD.
IMHO, we will see more of the same in the next 450h. New body, and that's it.
The current prius plug-in has a 4.4KW li-ion battery. If a 7kW prius conversion kit w/install costs ~$10k, I'm sure Toyota/Lexus could leverage economies of scale to add more plug-in models for their hybrids.
Again, the independent motors is a stretch. The rear motor could theoretically be split into two smaller motors, which is not incompatible with the PSD. The front wheels are a different case of course.
Do you have inside knowledge? It all seems possible to me.
-Eric
Sources:
http://www.pluginsupply.com/pricing/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_...Plug-in_Hybrid
09-30-14, 05:15 PM
#9
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I think the weight and the size of the RX, with its expected increase in size, would prohibit any kind of full electric or plug in capabilities. It doesn't really make sense since the current 3RXh is ~4600 pounds. With an even bigger battery pack, and possibly 3rd row of seating, it could be close to 5000 pounds. lol.
The best thing they can do is add a more efficient gas engine in there, Im talking one that includes the latest tech in valve timings, direct injection, etc
Then just maybe, it would be able to get the same MPG numbers with being a larger vehicle, or a 2mpg increase
The best thing they can do is add a more efficient gas engine in there, Im talking one that includes the latest tech in valve timings, direct injection, etc
Then just maybe, it would be able to get the same MPG numbers with being a larger vehicle, or a 2mpg increase
10-01-14, 06:04 AM
#10
Racer
Most likely changes in the hybrid system are technical rather than architectural. The electric motors will be smaller/lighter or more powerful for a given size and weight. The inverter and electrics will be smaller, cheaper, and more efficient. The engine will also get some incremental efficiency increases from Toyota's continuing development of the atkinson type engine.
The basic architecture of the hybrid system hasn't changed much over the years, and I'm not expecting an "R" leading their typical evolutionary approach. There will be a 10% overall efficiency increase (on paper at least) and probably a few more HP thrown in to convince the faithful to trade-in.
I was reading some developmental articles the other day, it seems that there is still substantial efficiencies to be found in the electrical components, a lot of loss occurring shuttling those electrons to and fro. Toyota is now building atkinson cycle engines for non-hybrid cars (although they are for really small light cars), and the goal there seems to be having cylinder pressure reach atmosphere pressure by end of power stroke (aka every last bit of energy from the gasoline ignition has been extracted).
The one area that is the biggest ??? in my mind is when does Toyota think lithium batteries are ready for mainstream manufacturing. The only place they've used one so far in the plug-in Prius is more a test platform than a real commitment. While other manufacturers seem to be a lot more OK with them, Toyota's hesitation and their continued push with fuel cells makes me think they don't have a lot of faith in future battery development proving they will have a vehicle lifetime lithium battery for their mainstream hybrid vehicles. This is the only place I can see the "r" coming anytime soon, if ever.
The basic architecture of the hybrid system hasn't changed much over the years, and I'm not expecting an "R" leading their typical evolutionary approach. There will be a 10% overall efficiency increase (on paper at least) and probably a few more HP thrown in to convince the faithful to trade-in.
I was reading some developmental articles the other day, it seems that there is still substantial efficiencies to be found in the electrical components, a lot of loss occurring shuttling those electrons to and fro. Toyota is now building atkinson cycle engines for non-hybrid cars (although they are for really small light cars), and the goal there seems to be having cylinder pressure reach atmosphere pressure by end of power stroke (aka every last bit of energy from the gasoline ignition has been extracted).
The one area that is the biggest ??? in my mind is when does Toyota think lithium batteries are ready for mainstream manufacturing. The only place they've used one so far in the plug-in Prius is more a test platform than a real commitment. While other manufacturers seem to be a lot more OK with them, Toyota's hesitation and their continued push with fuel cells makes me think they don't have a lot of faith in future battery development proving they will have a vehicle lifetime lithium battery for their mainstream hybrid vehicles. This is the only place I can see the "r" coming anytime soon, if ever.
Last edited by Droid13; 10-01-14 at 06:10 AM.
10-01-14, 10:30 AM
#11
I think the weight and the size of the RX, with its expected increase in size, would prohibit any kind of full electric or plug in capabilities. It doesn't really make sense since the current 3RXh is ~4600 pounds. With an even bigger battery pack, and possibly 3rd row of seating, it could be close to 5000 pounds. lol.
The best thing they can do is add a more efficient gas engine in there, Im talking one that includes the latest tech in valve timings, direct injection, etc
Then just maybe, it would be able to get the same MPG numbers with being a larger vehicle, or a 2mpg increase
The best thing they can do is add a more efficient gas engine in there, Im talking one that includes the latest tech in valve timings, direct injection, etc
Then just maybe, it would be able to get the same MPG numbers with being a larger vehicle, or a 2mpg increase
What I've been reading in the forums and the news seems to be the contrary. RX is supposed to go on a diet with aluminum on the tailgate, hood, and possibly the doors.
If X5 plug-in hybrid and Cayenne plug-in hybrid can do it, so can the RX. The X5 is supposed to add 500-600 pounds for the system, but it will have 22mi of range without significantly sacrificing performance.
Definitely agree with you that it's time to upgrade the engine technology. Taiwanese news reports D4S is on the way to the 2GR-FE.
As a side note I actually don't want a plug-in hybrid option, but speculation is fun.
-Eric
10-01-14, 10:35 AM
#12
Most likely changes in the hybrid system are technical rather than architectural. The electric motors will be smaller/lighter or more powerful for a given size and weight. The inverter and electrics will be smaller, cheaper, and more efficient. The engine will also get some incremental efficiency increases from Toyota's continuing development of the atkinson type engine.
The basic architecture of the hybrid system hasn't changed much over the years, and I'm not expecting an "R" leading their typical evolutionary approach. There will be a 10% overall efficiency increase (on paper at least) and probably a few more HP thrown in to convince the faithful to trade-in.
I was reading some developmental articles the other day, it seems that there is still substantial efficiencies to be found in the electrical components, a lot of loss occurring shuttling those electrons to and fro. Toyota is now building atkinson cycle engines for non-hybrid cars (although they are for really small light cars), and the goal there seems to be having cylinder pressure reach atmosphere pressure by end of power stroke (aka every last bit of energy from the gasoline ignition has been extracted).
The one area that is the biggest ??? in my mind is when does Toyota think lithium batteries are ready for mainstream manufacturing. The only place they've used one so far in the plug-in Prius is more a test platform than a real commitment. While other manufacturers seem to be a lot more OK with them, Toyota's hesitation and their continued push with fuel cells makes me think they don't have a lot of faith in future battery development proving they will have a vehicle lifetime lithium battery for their mainstream hybrid vehicles. This is the only place I can see the "r" coming anytime soon, if ever.
The basic architecture of the hybrid system hasn't changed much over the years, and I'm not expecting an "R" leading their typical evolutionary approach. There will be a 10% overall efficiency increase (on paper at least) and probably a few more HP thrown in to convince the faithful to trade-in.
I was reading some developmental articles the other day, it seems that there is still substantial efficiencies to be found in the electrical components, a lot of loss occurring shuttling those electrons to and fro. Toyota is now building atkinson cycle engines for non-hybrid cars (although they are for really small light cars), and the goal there seems to be having cylinder pressure reach atmosphere pressure by end of power stroke (aka every last bit of energy from the gasoline ignition has been extracted).
The one area that is the biggest ??? in my mind is when does Toyota think lithium batteries are ready for mainstream manufacturing. The only place they've used one so far in the plug-in Prius is more a test platform than a real commitment. While other manufacturers seem to be a lot more OK with them, Toyota's hesitation and their continued push with fuel cells makes me think they don't have a lot of faith in future battery development proving they will have a vehicle lifetime lithium battery for their mainstream hybrid vehicles. This is the only place I can see the "r" coming anytime soon, if ever.
Let's hope they introduce the atkinson/otto switching engine.
With plug-in prius being the 3rd best selling plug-in in the US, I hope Toyota will safely consider plug-ins a successful test case. Toyota news did mention they are waiting for the next leap forward in battery technology and would be leap-frogging li-ion.
I doubt plug-in RX will happen, but it could happen in response to greater market demand for plug-ins.
-Eric
10-01-14, 12:25 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
Eric,
What Germans can do, Toyota may not be able to afford to. They are free to create vehicles that may have serous issues down the road, such as carbon deposits, as soon as their 4-year warranty expires. People do not buy these machines for reliability, therefore engineering priorities are different. That's why they can deploy more cutting-edge technologies sooner, some that may not be plausible for Toyota. Direct injection is an example.
What Germans can do, Toyota may not be able to afford to. They are free to create vehicles that may have serous issues down the road, such as carbon deposits, as soon as their 4-year warranty expires. People do not buy these machines for reliability, therefore engineering priorities are different. That's why they can deploy more cutting-edge technologies sooner, some that may not be plausible for Toyota. Direct injection is an example.
10-01-14, 03:18 PM
#15
Google searches find that RX450h is Atkinson only and RX450h has VVT-i and not the NX200t's VVT-iW.
Lexus is supposedly bringing D4-S to the RX350, which means it will likely use the 2GR-FSE engine. Is D4-S compatible with the 450h's 2GR-FXE engine?
-Eric
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVT-i#VVT-iW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine