Why not a GS450H?
10-10-12, 01:30 PM
#61
4GS450h has NiMH higher density compact lightweight battery with another 7 year model cycle?
E Class & 5 Series have previously had 7 year model cylcles, but have recently stated that they intend to shorten their model cycles!
Therefore current 4GS may even have 6 year model cycle to be competitive with E and 5?
From 3GS NiCad, to 4GS NiMH, so 5GS Lion is the next logical step.
Very possible.
Several years ago, Benz said that they intended to introduce the world's very first Lithium ion powered hybrid in their S Class range.
They intended to tame the explosiveness of the Lion battery with some type of air conditioning or cooling system.
Obviously, that has not eventuated, but such technology can't be too far away.
Look at your mobile phones - aren't lithium ion/polymer batteries so much smaller and lighter...
10-10-12, 02:01 PM
#62
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This does not make sense.
New loaded RXh retails for about the same price as GSh. Going with your reasoning, one can buy parts to assemble an RXh for less than buying whole?
It may have something to do with the type of drivers the GSh tends to attract perhaps, because I believe the most costly part of the insurance payout is probably for human injury compensations.
New loaded RXh retails for about the same price as GSh. Going with your reasoning, one can buy parts to assemble an RXh for less than buying whole?
It may have something to do with the type of drivers the GSh tends to attract perhaps, because I believe the most costly part of the insurance payout is probably for human injury compensations.
10-10-12, 03:20 PM
#63
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3GS450h has NiCad 7 year model cycle.
4GS450h has NiMH higher density compact lightweight battery with another 7 year model cycle?
E Class & 5 Series have previously had 7 year model cylcles, but have recently stated that they intend to shorten their model cycles!
Therefore current 4GS may even have 6 year model cycle to be competitive with E and 5?
From 3GS NiCad, to 4GS NiMH, so 5GS Lion is the next logical step.
Very possible.
Several years ago, Benz said that they intended to introduce the world's very first Lithium ion powered hybrid in their S Class range.
They intended to tame the explosiveness of the Lion battery with some type of air conditioning or cooling system.
Obviously, that has not eventuated, but such technology can't be too far away.
Look at your mobile phones - aren't lithium ion/polymer batteries so much smaller and lighter...
4GS450h has NiMH higher density compact lightweight battery with another 7 year model cycle?
E Class & 5 Series have previously had 7 year model cylcles, but have recently stated that they intend to shorten their model cycles!
Therefore current 4GS may even have 6 year model cycle to be competitive with E and 5?
From 3GS NiCad, to 4GS NiMH, so 5GS Lion is the next logical step.
Very possible.
Several years ago, Benz said that they intended to introduce the world's very first Lithium ion powered hybrid in their S Class range.
They intended to tame the explosiveness of the Lion battery with some type of air conditioning or cooling system.
Obviously, that has not eventuated, but such technology can't be too far away.
Look at your mobile phones - aren't lithium ion/polymer batteries so much smaller and lighter...
I think the S400 hybrid does use ion as well but MPG isn't great at all.
10-10-12, 04:51 PM
#64
Look up
RX400/RX450/Highlander Hybrid production numbers...
vs
GS450h. Production numbers.
Now, come to grips that your hybrid RX does not share the same parts as a GS450h.
Or do you need pictures again?
10-10-12, 05:45 PM
#65
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Production numbers have nothing to do with cost of replacing a totalled hybrid be it RXh or GSh.
Better yet, please explain why RXh is slightly cheaper to insure than the vibe which a twin to the ever popular Matrix. These latter must surely have higher production numbers than RXh+Highlander h..
Now, to focus on the GSh as you seem to think everything about it is different, your insurance agent was probably making up bogus stories to charge you a higher premium. The evidence to the contrary is all here as presented by the OP.
I am not an insurance expert, but if your story on insurance pricing is correct, then the cost to insure an LFA should be astronomical simply because there are only 500 of them in the world, and I am sure the sum of its parts is more than 375K. Well here is the good news (or bad news depending on who is reading), it would have costed me only around 5K to insure it annually (I got the quote when I still had my allocation). That is approximately 3 times the cost to insure my RXh.
Talk about the need to come to grip!
Better yet, please explain why RXh is slightly cheaper to insure than the vibe which a twin to the ever popular Matrix. These latter must surely have higher production numbers than RXh+Highlander h..
Now, to focus on the GSh as you seem to think everything about it is different, your insurance agent was probably making up bogus stories to charge you a higher premium. The evidence to the contrary is all here as presented by the OP.
I am not an insurance expert, but if your story on insurance pricing is correct, then the cost to insure an LFA should be astronomical simply because there are only 500 of them in the world, and I am sure the sum of its parts is more than 375K. Well here is the good news (or bad news depending on who is reading), it would have costed me only around 5K to insure it annually (I got the quote when I still had my allocation). That is approximately 3 times the cost to insure my RXh.
Talk about the need to come to grip!
Okay... Since you think brake dust determines the amount of usage on a vehicle. This probably wont sink in to well either.
Look up
RX400/RX450/Highlander Hybrid production numbers...
vs
GS450h. Production numbers.
Now, come to grips that your hybrid RX does not share the same parts as a GS450h.
Or do you need pictures again?
Look up
RX400/RX450/Highlander Hybrid production numbers...
vs
GS450h. Production numbers.
Now, come to grips that your hybrid RX does not share the same parts as a GS450h.
Or do you need pictures again?
10-10-12, 06:29 PM
#66
Apparently, in Toyota/Lexus hybrids, the amount of braking pressure on the pedal tells the system which method should be used to slow down the car. A very informative poster on the Tesla Forum wrote this
Toyota wanted the Prius, like all of its hybrids to just feel like a normal ICE car with an automatic transmission. To do this, they put in a very light regen when you take your foot off the accelerator, and continue applying more in the first stages of brake pedal application. The problem is in the harder application of braking, the transition from regen to friction is always a little funny (better in later models). Also, if you want to come to a stop on regen only, you have to figure out how to apply just enough pressure to the brake.
So it is entirely possible that GSh drivers being the pedal smashers they are, always managed to brake their cars using the friction based brakes. Therefore that lead to more wear than other hybrids.
Also, as a prerequisite, regen brake systems HAVE to work with friction based brakes, so combining it with the ability to "chose" the braking system, it would be no brainer to have a full blown friction based braking system in hybrids.
It is also possible that Lexus programmed GSh to use more friction based braking all the time because it is suppose to be a sporty and different than regular hybrids, No one knows but their engineers.
Toyota wanted the Prius, like all of its hybrids to just feel like a normal ICE car with an automatic transmission. To do this, they put in a very light regen when you take your foot off the accelerator, and continue applying more in the first stages of brake pedal application. The problem is in the harder application of braking, the transition from regen to friction is always a little funny (better in later models). Also, if you want to come to a stop on regen only, you have to figure out how to apply just enough pressure to the brake.
So it is entirely possible that GSh drivers being the pedal smashers they are, always managed to brake their cars using the friction based brakes. Therefore that lead to more wear than other hybrids.
Also, as a prerequisite, regen brake systems HAVE to work with friction based brakes, so combining it with the ability to "chose" the braking system, it would be no brainer to have a full blown friction based braking system in hybrids.
It is also possible that Lexus programmed GSh to use more friction based braking all the time because it is suppose to be a sporty and different than regular hybrids, No one knows but their engineers.
GS450h uses regenerative braking as every other hybrid, otherwise there would be no electricity to power the hybrid system and there would be no benefit to mpg. Brakes are still used for stopping the car, but in many cases it is regen that is being used - this is why Lexus has put two large electric motors - one is to accelerate and other is to feed the battery from regen.
Here is the excerpt from Lexus European broschure on 4GS450h
REGENERATIVE BRAKING
When braking or decelerating, the vehicle’s wheels
drive the high-output electric motor so that it functions
as a generator. Kinetic energy – which would otherwise
be lost as heat – is then captured and converted into
electric power. This is stored in the hybrid battery for
later use when driving in Electric Vehicle mode or
accelerating swiftly.
When braking or decelerating, the vehicle’s wheels
drive the high-output electric motor so that it functions
as a generator. Kinetic energy – which would otherwise
be lost as heat – is then captured and converted into
electric power. This is stored in the hybrid battery for
later use when driving in Electric Vehicle mode or
accelerating swiftly.
In my IS, I had to change disks after 35k miles.
10-10-12, 08:49 PM
#67
Production numbers have nothing to do with cost of replacing a totalled hybrid be it RXh or GSh.
Better yet, please explain why RXh is slightly cheaper to insure than the vibe which a twin to the ever popular Matrix. These latter must surely have higher production numbers than RXh+Highlander h..
Now, to focus on the GSh as you seem to think everything about it is different, your insurance agent was probably making up bogus stories to charge you a higher premium. The evidence to the contrary is all here as presented by the OP.
I am not an insurance expert, but if your story on insurance pricing is correct, then the cost to insure an LFA should be astronomical simply because there are only 500 of them in the world, and I am sure the sum of its parts is more than 375K. Well here is the good news (or bad news depending on who is reading), it would have costed me only around 5K to insure it annually (I got the quote when I still had my allocation). That is approximately 3 times the cost to insure my RXh.
Talk about the need to come to grip!
Better yet, please explain why RXh is slightly cheaper to insure than the vibe which a twin to the ever popular Matrix. These latter must surely have higher production numbers than RXh+Highlander h..
Now, to focus on the GSh as you seem to think everything about it is different, your insurance agent was probably making up bogus stories to charge you a higher premium. The evidence to the contrary is all here as presented by the OP.
I am not an insurance expert, but if your story on insurance pricing is correct, then the cost to insure an LFA should be astronomical simply because there are only 500 of them in the world, and I am sure the sum of its parts is more than 375K. Well here is the good news (or bad news depending on who is reading), it would have costed me only around 5K to insure it annually (I got the quote when I still had my allocation). That is approximately 3 times the cost to insure my RXh.
Talk about the need to come to grip!
The car I own and start every morning uses the $10,000 transmission to stop the car instead of the $1500 brakes. Because your brakes never get dusty. That proves that i am out of my mind. Because the atkinson equipped FWD/AWD transverse engine/trans is exactly like a Otto cycle longitudinal mounted RWD sedan.
Your insurance on your Vibe was more than the RX/Highlander in Canada, so That must mean I'm getting hosed by the insurance agent I have... that works for the company my girlfriend is an executive at. Okay... I better call around and forgo the massive discount I already get.
Production numbers on cars (RX/Highlander) that were made in the 30,000 unit range as opposed to a car that only 6,000 were produced same year with entirely different parts. Has no bearing on the cost of replacement parts. I guess they have parts laying around at Sewell for my car. I'll give Darrell there a shout tomorrow and see if I can grab a battery, transmission and inverter.
Exotics are relatively cheap to insure because they are rarely driven. But you would know that since you look at 996's and LFA to buy. Why were you rocking a Vibe again?
Girlfriend just pulled up what it would cost for a Ferrari F430 vs my GSh and the rate went up $658 every 6 months. She also looked up a Vibe and said it would be $270 less every 6 months.
RXh's can totally pull this off. Since they are the same as a GSh.
10-10-12, 09:00 PM
#69
GS450h uses regenerative braking as every other hybrid, otherwise there would be no electricity to power the hybrid system and there would be no benefit to mpg. Brakes are still used for stopping the car, but in many cases it is regen that is being used - this is why Lexus has put two large electric motors - one is to accelerate and other is to feed the battery from regen.
I dont know why is this perceived as negative by some posters here, it is the main benefit of hybrid system.. it recuperates energy from braking and uses it for "free" when accelerating.
I dont know why is this perceived as negative by some posters here, it is the main benefit of hybrid system.. it recuperates energy from braking and uses it for "free" when accelerating.
back to your original comments. the car is much heavier and does not use the regen braking to shrug off high speeds that car can hit. Hence the IS350 4 pots. There are two emotors but the front one is small, used for regen and starting the ICE, the rear emotor is huge and is what is giving the car the acceleration you see in the video above.
10-11-12, 10:41 AM
#70
lmfao
The Infiniit M35h hybrid uses ion batteries and gets WORSE MPG than the GS 450h. Its not just about batteries but advancements with the engine and transmission as well. Toyota seems to be very worried about the life span of the ion batteries and clearly invested significantly in the current program so they will likely only move on when it makes sense for them.
I think the S400 hybrid does use ion as well but MPG isn't great at all.
The Infiniit M35h hybrid uses ion batteries and gets WORSE MPG than the GS 450h. Its not just about batteries but advancements with the engine and transmission as well. Toyota seems to be very worried about the life span of the ion batteries and clearly invested significantly in the current program so they will likely only move on when it makes sense for them.
I think the S400 hybrid does use ion as well but MPG isn't great at all.
However, the electric motors are so small, providing only an additional 20 bhp for the S Class, mainly to focus on economy with an EPA rating of 19 mpg city and 26 mpg highway.
The S400h 3.5 V6 hybrid Lion does 0-60 in a sluggish 7.2.
With a focus on economy, the S Class lion battery is so small, it actually fits under the bonnet, with no loss of boot space.
BMW similarly followed with an ActiveHybrid 7.
Once again, the electric motors are small, and only focused on economy by providing an additional 20 bhp only to the 4.4 L V8 turbo with 17 mpg city and 26 mpg highway.
However, the 4.4 V8 turbo hybrid Lion does 0-60 in just 4.7 seconds!
By comparison, the LS600hL 5.0 V8 hybrid NiMH does 19 mpg city and 23 mpg highway, with 0-60 in 5.5 seconds.
In this tier, the LS hybrid neither has great performance, nor great economy, but it leans more towards performance than economy.
The S400 3.5 V6 hybrid really leans towards economy.
The BMW ActiveHybrid 7 probably has the best of both worlds.
Nissan does have a lion battery in its M35h.
From the M37 3.7's 3863 lbs to the M35h 3.5 Lion hybrid's 4136 lbs is an extra 273 lbs.
From the GS350's 3795 lbs to the GS450h NiMH hybrid's 4190 lbs is an extra 395 lbs!
So the lithium ion batteries are smaller and lighter than the NiMH - just like our everyday mobile phones.
The Infiniti M37 3.7 V6 already has 330 bhp to the GS350's 306 bhp.
The Infiniti M35h 3.5 V6 hybrid's lithium ion powered electric motors add 67 bhp on top of the 3.5 L V6 for a total of 360 bhp.
The Lexus GS450h NiMH powered electric motors add only 50 bhp on top of the 3.5L V6, for a total of only 338 bhp.
[Though there is something that doesn't quite add up with the specs the manufacturers provided]?
On top of that, the Infinit M35h hybrid is already a lighter car than the GS450h hybrid.
Hence, Infiniti claims on the Guiness Book of Records that the M35h is the world's fastest production hybrid for this class of cars, with a 0-62 mph time of 5.5 seconds, 0-60 under 5.5 seconds, and 0-400m quarter mile in just 13.9031 seconds.
By comparison, the heavier GS450h NiMH does 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/infin...ord-31133.html
The GS350 EPA 19/28 mpg is superior to the M37 3.7 V6's 18/26 mpg due to the M37's bigger 3.7 liter capacity for greater emphasis on performance.
The GS450h 3.5L V6 NiMH hybrid's 29/34 mpg is superior to the Infiniti M35's 3.5 V6 Lion hybrid's 27/32 mpg, but Toyota V6's have traditionally had an economy advantage over both Nissan and Honda V6's since the 1990's.
Here, the GS450h 3.5 V6 NiMH hybrid's economy advantage over the M35h 3.5 V6 Lion hybrid, is mainly due to the GS450h's CVT, as opposed to the M35h's 7 speed auto tranny.
The Infiniti boot falls from 14.9 to 11.3 cubic feet; a fall of 3.6 cubic feet, because the battery pack is behind the rear seat back rest, but the Infiniti M's boot lid tapers sloping downwards towards the rear, losing capacity rapidly.
The GS boot falls from 14.3 cu ft to only 13.2 cu ft; a fall of only 1.1 cubic feet, thanks to the GS's boxy square rear end.
Despite Lion's 500 recharge cycles vs NiMH's 1000-1500 recharge cycles, generally speaking, the higher energy density Lion batteries are the next generation; I wouldn't be surprised if we see it in the 5GS...
Last edited by peteharvey; 10-11-12 at 03:00 PM.
10-13-12, 12:03 AM
#72
http://youtu.be/0VaW-UYqjNw
The Infiniti M35h is lighter, yet more powerful, so is tested at 0-60 in 6.24 secs, where the heavier yet less powerful GS450h does 0-60 in 7.34 seconds, yet the two testers unanimously picked the GS450h as the overall winner on grounds of styling and chassis...
The Infiniti M35h is lighter, yet more powerful, so is tested at 0-60 in 6.24 secs, where the heavier yet less powerful GS450h does 0-60 in 7.34 seconds, yet the two testers unanimously picked the GS450h as the overall winner on grounds of styling and chassis...
10-20-12, 12:20 PM
#73
Do you know the relative weight of the two cars, and their relative EPA fuel consumption?
I wonder if the new GS450h put on weight despite the use of higher energy density NiMH batteries, or did the new GS450h deliberately focus on economy at the expense of performance?
Last edited by peteharvey; 10-20-12 at 12:29 PM.
10-20-12, 04:05 PM
#74
The old GS450h was nearly 10% quicker than the current model GS450h?
Do you know the relative weight of the two cars, and their relative EPA fuel consumption?
I wonder if the new GS450h put on weight despite the use of higher energy density NiMH batteries, or did the new GS450h deliberately focus on economy at the expense of performance?
Do you know the relative weight of the two cars, and their relative EPA fuel consumption?
I wonder if the new GS450h put on weight despite the use of higher energy density NiMH batteries, or did the new GS450h deliberately focus on economy at the expense of performance?
10-20-12, 05:45 PM
#75
2007 GS450h: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/22762.shtml
2013 GS450h: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/32339.shtml
2007 GS450h: 22/25 MPG
2013 GS450h: 29/34 MPG
Hence the new 2013 GS450h's near 10% loss in linear acceleration...
Grams greenhouse gas emissions per mile:
2007: 386 grams/mile
2013: 283 grams/mile
Also, while here:
EPA Cabin volume:
2007: 98 cu ft
2013: 99 cu ft; only 1 cubic foot more cabin volume.
EPA luggage volume:
2007: 8 cu ft
2013: 13 cu ft. Thanks to higher energy density NiMH battery.
Data supplied by the EPA Environmental Protection Agency...
2013 GS450h: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/32339.shtml
2007 GS450h: 22/25 MPG
2013 GS450h: 29/34 MPG
Hence the new 2013 GS450h's near 10% loss in linear acceleration...
Grams greenhouse gas emissions per mile:
2007: 386 grams/mile
2013: 283 grams/mile
Also, while here:
EPA Cabin volume:
2007: 98 cu ft
2013: 99 cu ft; only 1 cubic foot more cabin volume.
EPA luggage volume:
2007: 8 cu ft
2013: 13 cu ft. Thanks to higher energy density NiMH battery.
Data supplied by the EPA Environmental Protection Agency...