Why not a GS450H?
10-04-12, 11:32 AM
#32
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cost of owning hybrid excerpts
Here are some of the things i've copied online from articles discussing cost of owning hybrids:
"While they typically require less maintenance in terms of strain on the engine and the braking system, hybrid cars may require a battery replacement every 150,000 to 200,000 miles, at a cost of $4,000 to $8,000."
"Again, repairs for the hybrid models cost more. But in this case, the difference was a mere 3.8%—a difference that many consumers probably never noticed. "
"Hybrid cars may also get relief on insurance costs too. Some automobile insurance carriers are now offering as much as 5% to 10% discounts on hybrid cars."
"One distinct advantage hybrids have is that you won't need to change your brake pads as often. Because of their regenerative braking technology, hybrid brake pads last much longer. Prius customers have reported driving as far as 85,000 miles without a replacement. The brake pads of most gas cars last only about 15,000 miles."
It sounds to me that the cost savings are negligible since different parts wear out for each type of vehicle at different time. The 100k mile warranty is nice on the hybrid, the time between fills and brake maintenance. The largest factor is the up front 10k cost and smaller trunk. It can be realized over time through gas savings, insurance deductions, and time savings for those that are willing to stick with it for the 100k mileage duration. the quietness, low end torque, coolness factor, and time saved getting online at the costco pump for me would be bonuses. i'm not a hybrid driver yet, however it looks like i'm heading that way till electric vehicles become more the norm. it's also unfortunate that the federal rebate and any incentives in california no longer applies. also too bad it doesn't qualify for a HOV sticker.
"While they typically require less maintenance in terms of strain on the engine and the braking system, hybrid cars may require a battery replacement every 150,000 to 200,000 miles, at a cost of $4,000 to $8,000."
"Again, repairs for the hybrid models cost more. But in this case, the difference was a mere 3.8%—a difference that many consumers probably never noticed. "
"Hybrid cars may also get relief on insurance costs too. Some automobile insurance carriers are now offering as much as 5% to 10% discounts on hybrid cars."
"One distinct advantage hybrids have is that you won't need to change your brake pads as often. Because of their regenerative braking technology, hybrid brake pads last much longer. Prius customers have reported driving as far as 85,000 miles without a replacement. The brake pads of most gas cars last only about 15,000 miles."
It sounds to me that the cost savings are negligible since different parts wear out for each type of vehicle at different time. The 100k mile warranty is nice on the hybrid, the time between fills and brake maintenance. The largest factor is the up front 10k cost and smaller trunk. It can be realized over time through gas savings, insurance deductions, and time savings for those that are willing to stick with it for the 100k mileage duration. the quietness, low end torque, coolness factor, and time saved getting online at the costco pump for me would be bonuses. i'm not a hybrid driver yet, however it looks like i'm heading that way till electric vehicles become more the norm. it's also unfortunate that the federal rebate and any incentives in california no longer applies. also too bad it doesn't qualify for a HOV sticker.
10-04-12, 11:40 AM
#33
The hybrid is better in all areas except the weight and the handling.
Because it is 200 kg or about 400 lbs heavier, the significant extra mass slows down the speed of change in direction, and it also limits the maximum lateral acceleration that the GS450h can achieve.
So if you want a cruiser, go GS450h.
If you want a balance between linear and lateral acceleration, go GS350.
This is somewhat similar to the 535i versus the M5 too.
The 535i is better balance all round.
The old M5 in V10 and the new M5 in V8, the V10's and V8's make the nose too heavy, resulting in nose heavy sluggish changes in direction, less speed on the slalom, and often fewer g's on the skid pan...
Because it is 200 kg or about 400 lbs heavier, the significant extra mass slows down the speed of change in direction, and it also limits the maximum lateral acceleration that the GS450h can achieve.
So if you want a cruiser, go GS450h.
If you want a balance between linear and lateral acceleration, go GS350.
This is somewhat similar to the 535i versus the M5 too.
The 535i is better balance all round.
The old M5 in V10 and the new M5 in V8, the V10's and V8's make the nose too heavy, resulting in nose heavy sluggish changes in direction, less speed on the slalom, and often fewer g's on the skid pan...
10-04-12, 11:44 AM
#34
Which brings me to my next thought. Why would Lexus put those massive calipers on the car, if they are not needed?
......
Just got off the phone with my service dept manager/friend. He confirmed that the brakes on my GS450h do 90% of the stopping power. The 10% is the rotational weight of the heavy spindle and planetary gears act as a sort of engine braking. While not on the gas. He said If I had to rely on the transmission solely for stopping or decreasing high speed... I would be screwed.
Downshifting is done by settings in the planetaries. And do the same as going from 4th to 2nd slowing to a stop.
Your RX drive-line isn't even remotely close to the one in mine and the 4GS.
For starters yours is transverse.
Here is what is in mine and I'm assuming damn close to the same in the 4th gen.
10-04-12, 11:49 AM
#35
Please tell me people are not thinking the 450h operates the same as a Prius.
If this is where this tranny stopping the car info is coming from.
It does not apply to the GS450h
Its like saying a Piper Cub and a F15 are the same cause they can both fly through the air.
10-04-12, 12:23 PM
#36
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i don't know enough about hybrids, like most consumers, to understand where the similarities begin and end. I was looking more for commonality between types of cars. the author who used the prius as an example obviously would pick something that would support his statement. it is however a common thought that regenerative breaking is an advantage on hybrid vehicles after reading from several sources. maybe Lexus's system is completely different. maybe the the GS450H doesn't have the advantages of regenerative breaking which reduces break wear, or maybe everyone that makes this claim is wrong and maybe it's false advertisement. I'm not sure, hence the post for feedback from the gear heads that knows these sort of things. I just want to buy something I'm happy with and get the most out of my money since I typically purchase cars in full and keep for 6-10 yrs. Buyers remorse is a terrible thing.
10-04-12, 12:37 PM
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Most of the braking is done by the brakes. Even the stock GS 450h uses a huge 4 pot caliper up front. This is no Prius.
It can be frustrating sometimes to us hybrid owners who are the first to buy and modify these cars. People still don't have a clue about them. I was at Nurotag this weekend and the 2 people that drove my car sat in the car for 5 minutes until I walked back. They asked "hey the car isn't on"
when it was, it just was on battery power. I still get asked "do you plug it in" and all sorts of questions I honestly think someone would know by now. But most are not enthusiasts so its cool to educate the masses when possible. Funny, Lexus hybrids have been around since 2006 and most still have no clue about them.
Neurocity owns a 450h, as do I. We kind of know how they work
10-04-12, 12:43 PM
#39
i don't know enough about hybrids, like most consumers, to understand where the similarities begin and end. I was looking more for commonality between types of cars. the author who used the prius as an example obviously would pick something that would support his statement. it is however a common thought that regenerative breaking is an advantage on hybrid vehicles after reading from several sources. maybe Lexus's system is completely different. maybe the the GS450H doesn't have the advantages of regenerative breaking which reduces break wear, or maybe everyone that makes this claim is wrong and maybe it's false advertisement. I'm not sure, hence the post for feedback from the gear heads that knows these sort of things. I just want to buy something I'm happy with and get the most out of my money since I typically purchase cars in full and keep for 6-10 yrs. Buyers remorse is a terrible thing.
Here is the deal.
The car is fast. very fast
The car is fast and also gets great gas mileage. Even more so now with the Atkinson cycle.
The car feels way more solid with the extra weight.
Brake wear is nothing to worry about, and is dependent on how you drive. I drive the hell out of mine. 2007 with 82k miles on it.
Just know that if something does happen. (Check hybrid drive) issue. You are not going anywhere.
The car is in limp mode and your pretty much shafted. Fine if its in your driveway. Crappy if its in January, Sunday morning in Chicago-land like mine did (Hint resetting the 12v battery can reboot everything)
Unlike all the other cars you are use to, You technically do not give the car gas when you hit the pedal. Instead your foot/pedal sends a signal and the computer decides on what to do for the command you are giving it. it turns on and off when it needs to, your are driving a very fast computer.
My guy assures me that I can get 200k out of my drive-line without a problem as long as I do the normal maintenance. I believe him because he knows I would kill him and the dealership he represents here.
Be prepared for a hit when you trade it in. You can buy 3rd gen 450h's around hear for 5-6k cheaper than a same condition mileage 350awd. People are afraid of the Hybrids because of the cost of parts... They just don't know.
If I were to buy a 4th gen, It would have to be a 450h, everything I get into now that is slower just irritates me. The 350Fsport was nice, but I knew driving it that my 3rd gen 450h would kill it on the highway. Which is where my car and driving habits live.
Last edited by neurocity; 10-04-12 at 12:47 PM.
10-04-12, 12:51 PM
#40
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Hey bud, absolutely not. This car has blown past my expectations and my wife drives a RXh now. My friends and family buy hybrids now. Let it be known I am not a liberal "save the trees" don't like guns type of guy. I get warned on the internet, I say how I feel in person and I've kicked a lot of *** in my life But I do recycle So my opinion is not one to say "OMG BUY HYBRIDS AND NOTHING ELSE". I just drove a C63 black series a few minutes ago and it makes my GSh feel like a girls car
With that said the pros outweigh the cons to me.
1. Less emissions.
2. Gas savings over petrol only. This is not a main reason for purchase and I no longer track MPG or even gas prices. I just drive. But at the time 23-25 MPG AVERAGE was better than the 16-18 I was getting in my GS 430. Today the GS 450h at 31 MPG is literally on par with compacts like a Honda Fit while still being faster than 95% of cars on the road.
3.The 2013 GS 450h is truly a "have your cake and eat it too" type of vehicle and at 58-74k it better be. This is not some lame Acura ILX where they downgrade to a 150hp car and try to call it luxury. The GS 450h gets better MPG and is a full blown luxury sport sedan.
4. Maintenance costs are the same. The only thing is at 90k or so they need to check/add hybrid coolant. There are no additional costs to maintain the battery.
5. Rarity. I honestly love being asked all the time about the hybrid. I let even strangers drive the car. They are just floored when they find out its a hybrid since most think the Prius is the only hyrbid around. At car meets and shows the car has a cool factor since its a good looking car and its usually the only hybrid around .
6. You don't lose anything. Again why not get luxury, sport and more MPG? You lose nothing. Don't worry about people that will break out a calcutlor trying to say "its not worth it" . I can break down a calculator and do that for any purchase.
7. Quiet. I love the quiet when the engine cuts off. This is at lights, driving at low speeds etc. It is SEAMLESS, rarely does the car shake. Its quite relaxing and a treat after a long day.
I am not going to sit here and say my next car will be a hybrid but I am glad I tried it, I love it and fully recommend it.
But I do recycle So my opinion is not one to say "OMG BUY HYBRIDS AND NOTHING ELSE". I just drove a C63 black series a few minutes ago and it makes my GSh feel like a girls carWith that said the pros outweigh the cons to me.
1. Less emissions.
2. Gas savings over petrol only. This is not a main reason for purchase and I no longer track MPG or even gas prices. I just drive. But at the time 23-25 MPG AVERAGE was better than the 16-18 I was getting in my GS 430. Today the GS 450h at 31 MPG is literally on par with compacts like a Honda Fit while still being faster than 95% of cars on the road.
3.The 2013 GS 450h is truly a "have your cake and eat it too" type of vehicle and at 58-74k it better be.
This is not some lame Acura ILX where they downgrade to a 150hp car and try to call it luxury. The GS 450h gets better MPG and is a full blown luxury sport sedan. 4. Maintenance costs are the same. The only thing is at 90k or so they need to check/add hybrid coolant. There are no additional costs to maintain the battery.
5. Rarity. I honestly love being asked all the time about the hybrid. I let even strangers drive the car. They are just floored when they find out its a hybrid since most think the Prius is the only hyrbid around. At car meets and shows the car has a cool factor since its a good looking car and its usually the only hybrid around .
6. You don't lose anything. Again why not get luxury, sport and more MPG? You lose nothing. Don't worry about people that will break out a calcutlor trying to say "its not worth it" . I can break down a calculator and do that for any purchase.
7. Quiet. I love the quiet when the engine cuts off. This is at lights, driving at low speeds etc. It is SEAMLESS, rarely does the car shake. Its quite relaxing and a treat after a long day.
I am not going to sit here and say my next car will be a hybrid but I am glad I tried it, I love it and fully recommend it.
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10-04-12, 01:20 PM
#41
executive matchup
+1, i agree with both posts
hey, don't forget me too!
Last edited by Stormforge; 10-04-12 at 04:48 PM.
10-04-12, 05:44 PM
#44
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Apparently, in Toyota/Lexus hybrids, the amount of braking pressure on the pedal tells the system which method should be used to slow down the car. A very informative poster on the Tesla Forum wrote this
Toyota wanted the Prius, like all of its hybrids to just feel like a normal ICE car with an automatic transmission. To do this, they put in a very light regen when you take your foot off the accelerator, and continue applying more in the first stages of brake pedal application. The problem is in the harder application of braking, the transition from regen to friction is always a little funny (better in later models). Also, if you want to come to a stop on regen only, you have to figure out how to apply just enough pressure to the brake.
So it is entirely possible that GSh drivers being the pedal smashers they are, always managed to brake their cars using the friction based brakes. Therefore that lead to more wear than other hybrids.
Also, as a prerequisite, regen brake systems HAVE to work with friction based brakes, so combining it with the ability to "chose" the braking system, it would be no brainer to have a full blown friction based braking system in hybrids.
It is also possible that Lexus programmed GSh to use more friction based braking all the time because it is suppose to be a sporty and different than regular hybrids, No one knows but their engineers.
Toyota wanted the Prius, like all of its hybrids to just feel like a normal ICE car with an automatic transmission. To do this, they put in a very light regen when you take your foot off the accelerator, and continue applying more in the first stages of brake pedal application. The problem is in the harder application of braking, the transition from regen to friction is always a little funny (better in later models). Also, if you want to come to a stop on regen only, you have to figure out how to apply just enough pressure to the brake.
So it is entirely possible that GSh drivers being the pedal smashers they are, always managed to brake their cars using the friction based brakes. Therefore that lead to more wear than other hybrids.
Also, as a prerequisite, regen brake systems HAVE to work with friction based brakes, so combining it with the ability to "chose" the braking system, it would be no brainer to have a full blown friction based braking system in hybrids.
It is also possible that Lexus programmed GSh to use more friction based braking all the time because it is suppose to be a sporty and different than regular hybrids, No one knows but their engineers.
10-04-12, 06:34 PM
#45
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I will now do something truly terrible, go dream about an 2014 GT3 that costs around 7 times my current second car
