2013 Lexus GS 450h...29 city/34 highway=31 combined?
11-24-11, 08:55 AM
#31
First Happy Thanksgiving
. Maybe I am not explaining myself clearly. Your philosophy/point (which many people have tried and most are just anti-hybirid) I don't agree with as you can apply the same methodology to anything and any two different engines. Not just hybrids.
For example, again, why get a TL-SH AWD with 305 hp against the TL with 280hp if you don't speed, its marginally faster and you won't really push the car at the track or anywhere? So why not lets break down that difference?
Why get a BMW 760 V-12 vs the 750 V-8 if you only drive 4,000 miles a year, have 5 cars and rarely speed?
Trying to say "Oh a hybrid makes no sense b/c you have to drive X miles to get them money back" is simply a way to try to imply hybrids are only for MPG gains, have no other benefits and that is the only reason people buy them.
The numbers clearly work for the GS 450h otherwise, Audi, BMW, Benz, Infiniti etc would not have copied it. This new model really makes a better case than the GS 450h I own.
No other car this equipped, this size offers 31 MPG average. If it costs more and makes people feel good, just as a V-8 or a V-10 or turbo makes someone feel good, why pick on the hybrid?
Mind you I am not here to say the GS 450h is the greatest car in the world and hybrids are the only cars to buy. I am not your typical hybrid owner and my demographic(s) is completely different to most hybrid owners
I skew the numbers. 
That said I am beyond pleased with my GS 450h and for driving around town I see no reason not to buy a hybrid. To me the benefits are great and I don't care if it costs more. Its worth it. To me.
. Maybe I am not explaining myself clearly. Your philosophy/point (which many people have tried and most are just anti-hybirid) I don't agree with as you can apply the same methodology to anything and any two different engines. Not just hybrids. For example, again, why get a TL-SH AWD with 305 hp against the TL with 280hp if you don't speed, its marginally faster and you won't really push the car at the track or anywhere? So why not lets break down that difference?
Why get a BMW 760 V-12 vs the 750 V-8 if you only drive 4,000 miles a year, have 5 cars and rarely speed?
Trying to say "Oh a hybrid makes no sense b/c you have to drive X miles to get them money back" is simply a way to try to imply hybrids are only for MPG gains, have no other benefits and that is the only reason people buy them.
The numbers clearly work for the GS 450h otherwise, Audi, BMW, Benz, Infiniti etc would not have copied it. This new model really makes a better case than the GS 450h I own.
No other car this equipped, this size offers 31 MPG average. If it costs more and makes people feel good, just as a V-8 or a V-10 or turbo makes someone feel good, why pick on the hybrid?
Mind you I am not here to say the GS 450h is the greatest car in the world and hybrids are the only cars to buy. I am not your typical hybrid owner and my demographic(s) is completely different to most hybrid owners
I skew the numbers. That said I am beyond pleased with my GS 450h and for driving around town I see no reason not to buy a hybrid. To me the benefits are great and I don't care if it costs more. Its worth it. To me.
Happy turkey day to you as well
11-24-11, 12:11 PM
#32
Why don't you tell us the breakdown of those 3.1mm. How many are Prius? And what actually is the resale and the long term repair implications. One thing cannot be disputed because it's been reported on many times, other than the Prius, there has not been a single other hybrid that has truly been a marketing success. I follow cars a lot...a whole lot. If you don't believe me, do you own research.
http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/...ely-28104.html
I found another link to a PDF file that I am not having any success downloading, but I'm sure you can find it. Showing sales by year through 2010, the Prius has outsold all other hybrids COMBINED every year.
The 30 years of Audi sales comparison means nothing. My point is that nobody really has a clear picture of repair costs and resale values in a 10 year or even less time frame. Those are very complex components, and because they are so specific to the limited market of hybrids, it's not like your local Auto Zone is going to have the modules, batteries etc sitting on the shelf for a seven or eight year old hybrid who's technology is already outdated.
I'd be lying if I didn't say ya'll bring up good points and interesting conversation - it's all good, as they say.
http://www.hybridcars.com/economics/...ely-28104.html
I found another link to a PDF file that I am not having any success downloading, but I'm sure you can find it. Showing sales by year through 2010, the Prius has outsold all other hybrids COMBINED every year.
The 30 years of Audi sales comparison means nothing. My point is that nobody really has a clear picture of repair costs and resale values in a 10 year or even less time frame. Those are very complex components, and because they are so specific to the limited market of hybrids, it's not like your local Auto Zone is going to have the modules, batteries etc sitting on the shelf for a seven or eight year old hybrid who's technology is already outdated.
I'd be lying if I didn't say ya'll bring up good points and interesting conversation - it's all good, as they say.
What do you need, 30 years of hybrids?
There is GS450h and RX400h/450h. RXh has been sold for 8 years now. Very reliable.
You can go to Priuschat and educate yourself about hybrids and costs associated with them. Again, nothing unknown, just that you dont know it despite thinking you are car enthusiast.
Generally, Prius has been rated as most reliable toyota for a long time now... for anything else, go to priuschat to learn more.
11-24-11, 03:22 PM
#33
you are again wrong... how could they not have basis for comparisment when you have Prius sold for 10 years?
What do you need, 30 years of hybrids?
There is GS450h and RX400h/450h. RXh has been sold for 8 years now. Very reliable.
You can go to Priuschat and educate yourself about hybrids and costs associated with them. Again, nothing unknown, just that you dont know it despite thinking you are car enthusiast.
Generally, Prius has been rated as most reliable toyota for a long time now... for anything else, go to priuschat to learn more.
What do you need, 30 years of hybrids?
There is GS450h and RX400h/450h. RXh has been sold for 8 years now. Very reliable.
You can go to Priuschat and educate yourself about hybrids and costs associated with them. Again, nothing unknown, just that you dont know it despite thinking you are car enthusiast.
Generally, Prius has been rated as most reliable toyota for a long time now... for anything else, go to priuschat to learn more.
BTW, I don't "think" I'm a car enthusiast, I am. That doesn't mean that I know everything out there about every car. If you ever get to Houston we can get together and I think you'll understand that I most certainly do know a lot about cars. More than you can imagine. In this case, I'm not trying to act like I know more about hybrids than some people do. I'm just using common sense.
I have friends with cars that are between 5-10 years old. My very best friend owns an eight year old BMW 325. Every year something goes wrong that costs him $2500, and that is a very common car with technology that has been around for years in almost every car made. My point is that the things that can go wrong for him that cost $2500 could be $5000 in a hybrid.
Mind you, I'm not saying I know the answer to that myself. I have done some homework and I cannot dispute what you are saying - long term reliability has been good. But the numbers are very small and the Prius is in a class of one when it comes to any meaningful production of hybrids for more than the past five years.
BTW, I hope this cut and past comes out okay - here is a sales history of hybrids....
Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) Sales by Model
Vehicle 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Total
Honda Insight 17 3,788 4,726 2,216 1200 583 666 722 0 0 20,572 20,962 55,452
Toyota Prius 5,562 15,556 20,119 24,600 53,991 107,897 106,971 181,221 158,574 139,682 140,928 955,101
Honda Civic 13,700 21,800 25,571 25,864 31,251 32,575 31,297 15,119 7,336 204,513
Ford Escape 2,993 18,797 20,149 21,386 17,173 14,787 11,182 106,467
Honda Accord 1,061 16,826 5,598 3,405 196 - - 27,086
Lexus RX400h 20,674 20,161 17,291 15,200 14,464 15,119 102,909
Toyota Highlander 17,989 31,485 22,052 19,441 11,086 7,456 109,509
Mercury Mariner 998 3,174 3,722 2,329 1,693 890 12,806
Lexus GS 450h 1,784 1,645 678 469 305 4,881
Toyota Camry 31,341 54,477 46,272 22,887 14,587 169,564
Nissan Altima 8,388 8,819 9,357 6,710 33,274
Saturn Vue 4,403 2,920 2,656 50 10,029
Lexus LS600hL 937 907 258 129 2,231
Saturn Aura 772 285 527 54 1,638
Chevy Tahoe 3,745 3,300 1,426 8,471
GMC Yukon 1,610 1,933 1,221 4,764
Chevy Malibu 2,093 4,162 405 6,660
Cadillac Escalade 801 1,958 1,210 3,969
Chrysler Aspen 46 33 - 79
Dodge Durango 9 - 9
Ford Fusion 15,554 20,816 36,370
Mercury Milan 1,468 1,416 2,884
Lexus HS 250h 6,699 10,663 17,362
Sierra/Silverado 1,598 2,393 3,991
BMW ActiveHybrid 7 102 102
BMW X6 205 205
Ford Lincoln MKZ 1,192 1,192
Honda CR-Z 5,249 5,249
Mazda Tribute 570 570
Mercedes ML450 627 627
Mercedes S400 801 801
Porsche Cayenne 206 206
Total 17 9,350 20,282 36,035 47,600 84,199 209,711 252,636 352,274 312,386 290,271 274,210 1,888,971
As expected, it didn't past in too well, and now I can't find the link. I'll look again.
Here... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KqEDzw&cad=rja
11-24-11, 07:34 PM
#34
11-24-11, 09:02 PM
#35
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To be fair, the M35h did 0-60 in 5.2 seconds in InsideLine's test while no magazine was ever able to come close to the 5.2-second official claim of the original GS450h (the closest was 5.5 seconds). With the new GS450h now being less powerful than the original (and with the official 0-60 time now being 5.6 seconds), chances are the M35h will still be faster than the GS450h.
11-24-11, 10:51 PM
#36
To be fair, the M35h did 0-60 in 5.2 seconds in InsideLine's test while no magazine was ever able to come close to the 5.2-second official claim of the original GS450h (the closest was 5.5 seconds). With the new GS450h now being less powerful than the original (and with the official 0-60 time now being 5.6 seconds), chances are the M35h will still be faster than the GS450h.
i'd enjoying having a M35h IF it came with a sport package... since it didn't i'm happy with my 28mpg highway average on my M37S
11-24-11, 11:04 PM
#37
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I understand your line of reasoning, but still don't agree with it completely. I think we just need to meet sometime and work this out over a world class hamburger! I've said it before, I really do enjoy these debates with you because you and I are alike in that we are both passionate about cars and we are both pretty sure we are right
Happy turkey day to you as well
Happy turkey day to you as well
I hear the logic in your arguement and again I ain't trying to pawn off hybrids are our saviors.FYI, it seems Lexus only expects 10% of sales to be the GS 450h..which is around 2,000 a year.
The BMW is really losing its edge. With a bloated price tag, and inferior mileage, its going to have a hard time competing. Its handling prowess has lost its edge to the new GS which is aimed at the tectonic 3 with guns blazing. Quite frankly the stat on the normal 335i with 21/31 is much more impressive considering it has 300hp and 300lbft compared to the 3.5 and 3.7 of Lexus and Infiniti. And as for the M35h, despite the higher horsepower I can't imagine there's any performance advantage against the 450h. GS is still leading the pack. Can't wait for a comparo test with these 3.
The M35h is a copy of the GS 450h (I mean the same name, really) and it didn't even have 15 minutes of fame. Its sad how poorly this generation is doing.
To be fair, the M35h did 0-60 in 5.2 seconds in InsideLine's test while no magazine was ever able to come close to the 5.2-second official claim of the original GS450h (the closest was 5.5 seconds). With the new GS450h now being less powerful than the original (and with the official 0-60 time now being 5.6 seconds), chances are the M35h will still be faster than the GS450h.
Lexus has always been spot on with acceleration figures. Considering all the butts I've whooped in my "hybrid" I feel it easily meets its claims. I've ran it side by side with my GS 430 and it is clearly .5 seconds faster. Here is my story at the drag strip in my 450h...ran a 14 flat....I'm sure if I practiced I could break into the 13s...I learned a lot that day....
Who gives a crap if the GS 450h is OMG .1 or .2 tenths slower. Its superior everywhere else.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...with-pics.html
At the Entrance
I took my G/F on a run, actually wan a 14.617 with her and a fun trunk This is the view head on from the passenger seat for those that have never dragged their Lexus before. 100.79 MPH
My fastest time 14.057...my 2nd run..it was downhill after that
14.2, 14.4, 14.6, then a 15 lol..... My battery only had 4 bars at the time....so I had more power but that was my best. It was cooler at the time...
Not sure what vehicle that was but I got smoked
Look at that weight transfer!
Hybrid power, all stock engine bay
GOATS on the way back!!!!
I took my G/F on a run, actually wan a 14.617 with her and a fun trunk
This is the view head on from the passenger seat for those that have never dragged their Lexus before. 100.79 MPHMy fastest time 14.057...my 2nd run..it was downhill after that
14.2, 14.4, 14.6, then a 15 lol..... My battery only had 4 bars at the time....so I had more power but that was my best. It was cooler at the time...Not sure what vehicle that was but I got smoked
Look at that weight transfer!
Hybrid power, all stock engine bay
GOATS on the way back!!!!
Last edited by LexFather; 11-24-11 at 11:11 PM.
11-25-11, 06:53 AM
#38
Lexus Champion
A 4GS Hybrid is okay (and will be better in F-sport trim)
BUT
a GS-F with 500 hp minimum is what must come and will take Lexus F vehicles even further.
***** yeah!!!
BUT
a GS-F with 500 hp minimum is what must come and will take Lexus F vehicles even further.
***** yeah!!!
11-25-11, 09:56 AM
#39
Pole Position
I discussed the Infiniti G35h with Lexus and they claimed it is the 3GS450h drive train. They said ‘all’ hybrids use the Toyota technology, with the exception of Honda. Even the new Porsche hybrid is Toyota parts (maybe why it’s “slower” than the GS450h?).
I will chime in on the V8 vs hybrid debate, I own a GS430 and GS450h, and there are a lot of things I loved about the GS430, but there is no doubt in my mind that the GS450h is a better car, and much faster. The torque and CVT make its real life acceleration almost unmatched, I don’t even care that it’s a hybrid, but the performance and smoothness is unworldly. I think it didn’t get enough attention and I really hope the 4GS450h makes a big splash, and I hope I can afford one.
PS: 36MPG is my best average.
I will chime in on the V8 vs hybrid debate, I own a GS430 and GS450h, and there are a lot of things I loved about the GS430, but there is no doubt in my mind that the GS450h is a better car, and much faster. The torque and CVT make its real life acceleration almost unmatched, I don’t even care that it’s a hybrid, but the performance and smoothness is unworldly. I think it didn’t get enough attention and I really hope the 4GS450h makes a big splash, and I hope I can afford one.
PS: 36MPG is my best average.
11-25-11, 03:59 PM
#40
No, I don't need 30 years. Read my post above. There is no hybrid technology out there that has been on the road for more than 5-7 years. I'm not talking about reliability in the same vein you are. There is not a car made that is not likely to have significant systems fail in well under ten years. My point is that on a hybrid those things may turn out to be very pricy.
BTW, I don't "think" I'm a car enthusiast, I am. That doesn't mean that I know everything out there about every car. If you ever get to Houston we can get together and I think you'll understand that I most certainly do know a lot about cars. More than you can imagine. In this case, I'm not trying to act like I know more about hybrids than some people do. I'm just using common sense.
I have friends with cars that are between 5-10 years old. My very best friend owns an eight year old BMW 325. Every year something goes wrong that costs him $2500, and that is a very common car with technology that has been around for years in almost every car made. My point is that the things that can go wrong for him that cost $2500 could be $5000 in a hybrid.
Mind you, I'm not saying I know the answer to that myself. I have done some homework and I cannot dispute what you are saying - long term reliability has been good. But the numbers are very small and the Prius is in a class of one when it comes to any meaningful production of hybrids for more than the past five years.
BTW, I hope this cut and past comes out okay - here is a sales history of hybrids....
Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) Sales by Model
Vehicle 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Total
Honda Insight 17 3,788 4,726 2,216 1200 583 666 722 0 0 20,572 20,962 55,452
Toyota Prius 5,562 15,556 20,119 24,600 53,991 107,897 106,971 181,221 158,574 139,682 140,928 955,101
Honda Civic 13,700 21,800 25,571 25,864 31,251 32,575 31,297 15,119 7,336 204,513
Ford Escape 2,993 18,797 20,149 21,386 17,173 14,787 11,182 106,467
Honda Accord 1,061 16,826 5,598 3,405 196 - - 27,086
Lexus RX400h 20,674 20,161 17,291 15,200 14,464 15,119 102,909
Toyota Highlander 17,989 31,485 22,052 19,441 11,086 7,456 109,509
Mercury Mariner 998 3,174 3,722 2,329 1,693 890 12,806
Lexus GS 450h 1,784 1,645 678 469 305 4,881
Toyota Camry 31,341 54,477 46,272 22,887 14,587 169,564
Nissan Altima 8,388 8,819 9,357 6,710 33,274
Saturn Vue 4,403 2,920 2,656 50 10,029
Lexus LS600hL 937 907 258 129 2,231
Saturn Aura 772 285 527 54 1,638
Chevy Tahoe 3,745 3,300 1,426 8,471
GMC Yukon 1,610 1,933 1,221 4,764
Chevy Malibu 2,093 4,162 405 6,660
Cadillac Escalade 801 1,958 1,210 3,969
Chrysler Aspen 46 33 - 79
Dodge Durango 9 - 9
Ford Fusion 15,554 20,816 36,370
Mercury Milan 1,468 1,416 2,884
Lexus HS 250h 6,699 10,663 17,362
Sierra/Silverado 1,598 2,393 3,991
BMW ActiveHybrid 7 102 102
BMW X6 205 205
Ford Lincoln MKZ 1,192 1,192
Honda CR-Z 5,249 5,249
Mazda Tribute 570 570
Mercedes ML450 627 627
Mercedes S400 801 801
Porsche Cayenne 206 206
Total 17 9,350 20,282 36,035 47,600 84,199 209,711 252,636 352,274 312,386 290,271 274,210 1,888,971
As expected, it didn't past in too well, and now I can't find the link. I'll look again.
Here... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KqEDzw&cad=rja
BTW, I don't "think" I'm a car enthusiast, I am. That doesn't mean that I know everything out there about every car. If you ever get to Houston we can get together and I think you'll understand that I most certainly do know a lot about cars. More than you can imagine. In this case, I'm not trying to act like I know more about hybrids than some people do. I'm just using common sense.
I have friends with cars that are between 5-10 years old. My very best friend owns an eight year old BMW 325. Every year something goes wrong that costs him $2500, and that is a very common car with technology that has been around for years in almost every car made. My point is that the things that can go wrong for him that cost $2500 could be $5000 in a hybrid.
Mind you, I'm not saying I know the answer to that myself. I have done some homework and I cannot dispute what you are saying - long term reliability has been good. But the numbers are very small and the Prius is in a class of one when it comes to any meaningful production of hybrids for more than the past five years.
BTW, I hope this cut and past comes out okay - here is a sales history of hybrids....
Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) Sales by Model
Vehicle 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Total
Honda Insight 17 3,788 4,726 2,216 1200 583 666 722 0 0 20,572 20,962 55,452
Toyota Prius 5,562 15,556 20,119 24,600 53,991 107,897 106,971 181,221 158,574 139,682 140,928 955,101
Honda Civic 13,700 21,800 25,571 25,864 31,251 32,575 31,297 15,119 7,336 204,513
Ford Escape 2,993 18,797 20,149 21,386 17,173 14,787 11,182 106,467
Honda Accord 1,061 16,826 5,598 3,405 196 - - 27,086
Lexus RX400h 20,674 20,161 17,291 15,200 14,464 15,119 102,909
Toyota Highlander 17,989 31,485 22,052 19,441 11,086 7,456 109,509
Mercury Mariner 998 3,174 3,722 2,329 1,693 890 12,806
Lexus GS 450h 1,784 1,645 678 469 305 4,881
Toyota Camry 31,341 54,477 46,272 22,887 14,587 169,564
Nissan Altima 8,388 8,819 9,357 6,710 33,274
Saturn Vue 4,403 2,920 2,656 50 10,029
Lexus LS600hL 937 907 258 129 2,231
Saturn Aura 772 285 527 54 1,638
Chevy Tahoe 3,745 3,300 1,426 8,471
GMC Yukon 1,610 1,933 1,221 4,764
Chevy Malibu 2,093 4,162 405 6,660
Cadillac Escalade 801 1,958 1,210 3,969
Chrysler Aspen 46 33 - 79
Dodge Durango 9 - 9
Ford Fusion 15,554 20,816 36,370
Mercury Milan 1,468 1,416 2,884
Lexus HS 250h 6,699 10,663 17,362
Sierra/Silverado 1,598 2,393 3,991
BMW ActiveHybrid 7 102 102
BMW X6 205 205
Ford Lincoln MKZ 1,192 1,192
Honda CR-Z 5,249 5,249
Mazda Tribute 570 570
Mercedes ML450 627 627
Mercedes S400 801 801
Porsche Cayenne 206 206
Total 17 9,350 20,282 36,035 47,600 84,199 209,711 252,636 352,274 312,386 290,271 274,210 1,888,971
As expected, it didn't past in too well, and now I can't find the link. I'll look again.
Here... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...KqEDzw&cad=rja
you simply dont want to get it so I dont know why I bother.
First of all, those numbers are USA only.
2nd is you are not happy with 1 million Prii on the road for reliability.
Prius outsells complete Audi brand in the USA.
There are plenty of Prii already going over 300,000 mile mark on Prius Chat... I dont know what do you want when it comes to reliability history.
In general, electric components are problem free, maintenance free and last lifetime of the vehicle. Batteries are also long lasting but not forever - however if yours quits at 250,000 miles, you can get replacement one installed for around $800.
There is nothing mythical about this as they have 3,100,000 hybrids sold around the world.
11-26-11, 05:17 AM
#41
eh.
you simply dont want to get it so I dont know why I bother.
First of all, those numbers are USA only.
2nd is you are not happy with 1 million Prii on the road for reliability.
Prius outsells complete Audi brand in the USA.
There are plenty of Prii already going over 300,000 mile mark on Prius Chat... I dont know what do you want when it comes to reliability history.
In general, electric components are problem free, maintenance free and last lifetime of the vehicle. Batteries are also long lasting but not forever - however if yours quits at 250,000 miles, you can get replacement one installed for around $800.
There is nothing mythical about this as they have 3,100,000 hybrids sold around the world.
you simply dont want to get it so I dont know why I bother.
First of all, those numbers are USA only.
2nd is you are not happy with 1 million Prii on the road for reliability.
Prius outsells complete Audi brand in the USA.
There are plenty of Prii already going over 300,000 mile mark on Prius Chat... I dont know what do you want when it comes to reliability history.
In general, electric components are problem free, maintenance free and last lifetime of the vehicle. Batteries are also long lasting but not forever - however if yours quits at 250,000 miles, you can get replacement one installed for around $800.
There is nothing mythical about this as they have 3,100,000 hybrids sold around the world.
11-29-11, 09:45 AM
#43
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Actually the M35h uses Infiniti's self-developed hybrid system with 7AT and Li-ion batteries. Porsche originally planned on buying hybrid technologies from Toyota but ended up developing their own. The only non-Toyota hybrids that ever used Toyota's hybrid technologies are the Nissan Altima and the last-gen Ford Escape (though Ford bought the license from Toyota only because their self-developed system happened to end up being the same as Toyota's).
11-30-11, 12:21 PM
#45
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Maybe switching to regular gasoline has something to do with this?
Actuallly the 2013 (GWL10) makes 2 hp less combined gas/electric power that the outgoing GWS191. The 2GR in the new car makes 6 hp less...but the combination of the renewed gas, electric, hybrid battery and CVT's parameters play a big role in why the new GSh gets great mileage. The L110 CVT is actually the same exact CVT from the previous GS and the LS 600hL.
GWL10 - 2GR
286 hp @ 6,000 rpm
254 lb.-ft. @ 4,600 rpm
GWS191 - 2GR
292 hp @ 6,400 rpm
267 lb.-ft. @ 4,800 rpm
GWL10 - 2GR
286 hp @ 6,000 rpm
254 lb.-ft. @ 4,600 rpm
GWS191 - 2GR
292 hp @ 6,400 rpm
267 lb.-ft. @ 4,800 rpm