TripleDES

Wondering if people can post the premium paid for insuring a 400h versus a 330/350. I ran some quotes on GEICO and it appears the difference is over $400 per year over an AWD 330.

Spinnaker

We have not taken delivery on ours yet, but I have read that Travelers offers a 10% discount on its insurance for hybrids. It's worth checking with some other companies.

bunka

I went from a $52K GX470 (2004 model) to a loaded 2006 Highlander Hybrid Limited ($42K) and my insurance only dropped about $50. I would've expected the 400H to simply have remained abou the same (around $600/year for dual car, over 40 years old, no tickets or accidents in NC).

alaterreur

I dont think there is a premium.. I used to have a Toyota PRius and bought the 400H. The insurance went up only $200.

TripleDES

I confirmed the cost differential between the 400h and 350. I think I pretty much made the decision that the 400h is too cost prohibitive at this point in time for me. Not only would I be paying over $400 a year more for insurance, but the cost difference between the two would take nearly 9 years to break even.

CrazyMPG

iTrader: (4)

hm...what is the cost difference? Is that also including the tax credit you will receive? Just wondering....

TripleDES

Yes, I ran the numbers with the tax credit and without. The quoted difference between the two is around $6700 for me. Without counting the credit it's 12.4 years and counting it is around 8.5 years till breakeven. This was taking into account 15,000 miles per year @ $3 for a gallon of gas. MPG is 18 for the 350 and 23 for the 400h all around miles according to Consumer Reports.

Any way I adjusted the variables, it didn't make sense to get the 400h just for the mileage savings. (I didn't include other factors that may be more important to those who purchased the 400h such as lower emissions, etc)

jim256

The locale for driving the 400h seems to make a big difference in average mileage. If I take a 150 mile trip I make frequently, I'll see about 28-29 average, all highway but only about 30 miles limited access. However, staying in town and just driving 5-7 miles on short trips, I'm seeing 29-31. This replaced an '05 Highlander with the 330 V6, and that got 25 on the trip and 20 locally.

oldcajun

[QUOTE=TripleDES;2145847]Yes, I ran the numbers with the tax credit and without. The quoted difference between the two is around $6700 for me. Without counting the credit it's 12.4 years and counting it is around 8.5 years till breakeven. This was taking into account 15,000 miles per year @ $3 for a gallon of gas. MPG is 18 for the 350 and 23 for the 400h all around miles according to Consumer Reports.
/QUOTE]

I'm surprised at the spread in price. With the same equipment, the difference between the RX400h ($51,185) and an RX350 ($45,706) is only $5479 using Lexus website list prices. With the $2200 credit, the additional cost is $3279.

My insurance agent assures me that the only reason the rate on the 400h is higher is the difference in list prices. In my case, the additional insurance cost is about $70 per year.

For some reason, Consumer Reports did a hatchet job on hybrids then had to retract much of their comment due to incorrect calculations. The real difference in MPG is actually more like 7 to 9 MPG if you do any significant amount of driving in heavy traffic. My real overall MPG for 12,000 miles is 26.7 MPG.
Steve

TripleDES

I did the calculations based on aggressive quotes from SoCal, which has a ton of Lexus dealers playing cutthroat. Right now, the RX350 is selling below invoice, whereas the 400h is not. I'll post the spreadsheet I created tonight so people can play with the numbers. Real world MPG doesn't make much of an impact from 5 - 10 MPG. The difference in cost is just too much to compensate.

Again, I based my decision purely on mileage savings wherease owners must have other reasons for purchasing the 400h. If I had the disposable income, I would purchase the 400h just because I could!

TripleDES

Okay, see the attached zip file containing the quick and dirty spreadsheet I put together.

You can basically change around all the variables such as estimated miles per year, average MPG, cost of gas, etc.

hybridben

Hi Matt:

I find it curious how some people are calculating cost recovery around 10-12 years. We just recently purchased a 2007 Lexus RX400h and the price difference between a comparably equipped RX350 and RX400h was less than $3,000. With the tax credit (confirmed by Lexus for the 2007 model but not yet updated on IRS's website) is $2200, we're down to a difference of less than $1,000. Based on $3/gallon, 15,000 miles per year, and 25 MPG (we're getting about 27 mpg right now), we'd break even in less than a year.

Also, I assume gas prices won't sit around $2.50-$3 for long. Every year, around three day weekends, prices always creep up into new highs and then pull back somewhere in between. I hear so many people relieved that gas is now averaging $2.50. But, weren't we paying under a $1.50 just a litttle while ago? Now, we're happy with $2.50! In 3 or 4 years, you may be looking at $4-$5/gallon gas. Theres no underestimating the greed of corporate America especially the oil barons.

Here are the only concerns I have with the hybrids now:
1) The overall safety of having electric motors and high voltage lines in the car (see my other post)
2) Hybrid electric becoming obsolete and replaced by an alternative system such as BMW's hydrogen car due out in a year or two. This would seriously impact resale value of these cars in 3-4 years.

TripleDES

I've spoken with almost every competitive dealer in SoCal regarding the 400h and none will go below $45k for a Premium Plus with Navigation. However, currently the 350 is going at a rock bottom rate similarly equipped. I simply compared the quotes I received from dealers. If you paid less than the price I mentioned for your 400h then please PM me your dealer because I definitely want to own a hybrid!!

Based on the research I've done the past few weeks, I haven't seen anyone get the 400h at or near invoice, which is what it would take to compete with the 350 that is currently selling for well below invoice.

TripleDES

Okay, sanity check here. I went to kbb.org and priced out a 400h and selected two options: Premium Plus and Navigation

MSRP: $46,605
Invoice: $41,444

Using the spreadsheet I attached:
400h pricing as Invoice listed above and the RX350 @ $38k and using 15k/year, 27mpg/18mpg respectively @ $3/gallon, I still get a breakeven point of 4 years. If you subtract the tax credit then it would take 1.5 years (assuming tax credit received went to prepayment of the loan).

This is basically unheard of pricing for the 400h!! So hybridben, if this is what you're claiming then you must share your secrets on how you got such a crazy deal on a new 400h!

daloosh

Well, hybridben didn't say he bought a 400h at invoice, right? And I doubt you can find a 2007 at invoice anyhow. I have heard of 06s at invoice, tho, that's in the range of $5500 off the sticker.

On the insurance front, I didn't price the 350 vs. the 400, but compared the Highlander Hybrid and the 400h, and the 400h was only about $50 more per six months. Rep (we have GEICO) said the difference was small because tho the 400h was more expensive, it had more safety features than the HH.

Still, we didn't buy it for the gas mileage, we bought it for the emissions. Everyone we meet says, "You know it takes years to break even..." If it was cash critical, we would've gone for the HH instead and saved some bucks. But the 400h has more safety, comfort and style features, and saves the earth too!

But the 400h has eaten up all our spare bucks. Funny, I thought buying a house would bankrupt us, then I thought it would be having a kid, but it's the darn car that's got me trying to balance my checkbook!

daloosh