The G Man

Those dunlop Grandtrash are not even worth half of the price of the cross terrains.

trebien

Heh. I had them as OEM on my Pathfinder. I hated them. Their wet traction was horrible. Remember, there are different versions of the "Dueler" such as the 768 and the 536, etc....

The oem Dueler 689 that came on the Pathfinder were some of the worst rated tires on Tire Rack:

Survey

sayadil

well going through this thread... i'm thinking how different people are happy with different tires.. i mean i was happy with the duelers which came on mine and there r few people who were happy with Grandtreks.. so i'm thinking as howcome some people r critizing the tires saying they are not good.. problem might be with these trucks itself and people blame the tires. coz if you think about it.. if the tires are the problem.. then howcome not all the people r having problems with grandtreks n duelers.
Michelins do make comfortable tires but they are overpriced and its not really justified.. i have had michelins in the past and i agree they r comfortable but the price difference is still not justified... and i think they do compensate for the flaw which infact comes with the GX... i mean there is a TSB for steering vibration so lot of people r told off by the dealers by them blaming the tires.. not too many dealers wanna do that tsb since it involves changing lot of steering parts as well as the differential components. and its usually a $1800 tsb (parts n labor)....
so again.. while dunlop brigdestone are good tire companies with lot of experience its hard to digest that their product is the problem. they wouldn't be on th market if thier tires sucked... as for bridgestone.. its one of the biggest companies in the world.. with lot of history..

trebien

A dealer doesn't care one way or another. They get paid by Lexus for the parts and labor of doing TSBs, so it's not like it comes out of the dealer's pocket. If anything, it's profit for them.

Great logic - if there was a problem with the tires, they wouldn't be on the market. Especially Bridgestone, parent company of Firestone.

sayadil

ok let me educate you now... the parts are sent by the company (toyota) at no cost to the dealer.. and the company pays only a compensated rate of labor.. its part of the dealer agreement. they both take part in providing warranty and customer satisfaction. So basically a dealer looses the buffer margin on parts which is roughly around 20% and he looses about 30-40% of labor which is alot in a $1500-2000 TSB. I have few frens at the chamber who r co owners of different dealerships. so i know this for sure.
its a known fact across anyone who's only been buying new cars... that dealers frequently turn off people by making all kinds of excuses to avoid doing work.. few times they don't even agree there's a problem and most times they would blame anything which is not from lexus.. for example an aftermarket stuff (wheels remote starter) or stuff like tires which r third party responsibilty... just go through this forum and you will know.. but i do agree lexus is better then most companies out there...
For the other part.. we are talking about Bridgestone not some shady Nainkooks or etc. Bridgestone is a huge company currenty largest company in the world tying with Goodyear. so they dint get there by making crappy tires. as for firestone like american cars .. it sucks.. since its made in states, its not comparable to the bridgestones produced in japan like our lexus. firestone is american subsidiary of bridgestone they are not bridgestones. hope that clears your misunderstanding against bridgestone tires. i mean a range rover is part of ford.. but its not ford.

trebien

Actually, I already knew this process, but didn't feel like going into detail. But since you brought it up... I'll let you know how it really works. These specifics are for the US market, and I would be surprised if Canada was different.

First of all, Lexus DOES provide reimbursement for the parts for warranty and TSB fixes. HOWEVER, it's NOT at dealer cost. They actually do include a little markup for the parts. It's not full retail markup, but they do provide some profit for the dealer on the cost of parts.

Secondly, as for the labor, I do NOT know the specific numbers on Lexus, but most manufacturers are set up so that the dealer is reimbursed at a lower rate - that is correct. However, the dealer is invoicing Lexus at their "book hours", which is a standardized repair time for a given repair. Usually, these "bok hours" that Lexus comes up with, are higher than what it actually takes a dealer tech to complete.

A standard book rate may be 8 hours for a given TSB, for instance. However, it may only take a Lexus Tech 6 hours to complete. They still bill Lexus at 8 hours, since it is a standardized repair. This hourly rate is less than their "retail" rate (about 20%), but they bill at more hours than it takes them most of the time, so it actually evens out.

For instance, on the most recent TSB for the clunk, the standard "book" hours for this repair was 2.9 hours according to Lexus. Most dealerships can do this repair in about 2 hours. So they invoice Lexus for 2.9 hours, but only need 2 hours to do the work.

This is especially true for TSBs and such (the whole point of this discussion) where they are doing the same fix OVER AND OVER. Because they get good at completing the fix. They get efficient. They get quicker, and it takes less and less time, but they still invoice Lexus at that standard rate.

So, no. I won't let you educate me.

sayadil

So, no. I won't let you educate me.[/QUOTE]


Well i know Companies never pay the standard rate. let me be specific .. toyota here charges around 75-100/hr to a walk in customer. but if they perform warranty work... toyota canada only pays 45.5/hr to the dealership so thats a big difference. I agree with you that since dealership perform same TSBS over n over (which is not the case with STeering driveline vibration coz not too many people have got it done... coz they r often misguided by blaming the tires) they get efficient and do save on time.. but the difference in labor is alot for them to cover. they do end up loosing money .. or else dealership would always be amiling n welcoming people and thier complaints .. but thats not the case.. for all the cars i have bought.. (read through this forum for other people's experiences also) dealers always try to escape doing major warranty work... by making all kinds of excuses.. and unless a customer doesn't have the proper details.. they don't even talk about TSBS... so many people on this forum prolly went to thier dealer and told them .. listen howcome ur telling me clunk/steering vibration/rotor problems is normal thing in GX i am on club lexus and there this TSB which everyone's talking about and then they look up for it. just read through this forum and you will know what i'm talking. this is where CLUBLEXUS is very helpful and informative...
I doubt Toyota US and Canada have different arrangments with thier dealers. its pretty much standards in any kinda franchising. loss (warranty work) is shared by both.. the dealers and the company... its impossible that dealers make the same amount of money by doing warranty work as they would do for outta warranty... the statement doesn't even make sense if you think for a minute.. and stop arguing.
well by the way you argue without thinking... i remembered a story.. 2 kids were arguing in class over the capital of canada. one kid said it was toronto the other kid who was rite kept on saying its ottawa.both had a bet ... the kid who was wrong (toronto) kept on arguing and bringing fake supporting argument... went home and asked his parents..."isn't toronto the capital".. and her mom said kid you lost the bet coz the capital is actually ottawa.. and the kid replies.. "no i dint.. I will only loose if i will admit to it". so thats what ur doing..
i gave the info and people who've been buying cars all thier life.. know what i'm talking about.. so no more talking on the same issue.. u can believe whatever u want. doesn't matter.!

loflin

sayadil, I hesitate to jump into you and trebien's little "love fest", but I really don't know what you are talking about.

I haven't met a dealer YET who doesn't want to do warranty work. If they didn't, what would they do, as most cars come with either a 3 year (and up to 7 for some brands) warranty, plus the fact that they sell, sell, sell the extended warranties.

Heck, I get post cards from the other dealers begging me to come to them for warranty service, even though I bought from the in-town dealer.

In my town, MOST people do NOT go to the dealer for collision repair (I mean from car wrecks) and even if they did, the dealer sends it out to the specialist shops anyway. For tires and batteries its NTB or Sam's/Costco. For oil changes it's Jiffy/Quick Lube.

So what do you think the service guys are doing in there?

trebien

The reason they don't "welcome" all people with all complaints whether they should be covered or not, is that Lexus checks the repair process and old parts, and only reimburses the dealer for repairs that were honestly covered under warranty. Duh.

Never heard such a thing, nor had problems getting genuine warranty work done on any of my 9 vehicles I have owned.

WTF? Where did I say that, or even infer it? Show me.



I know - trust me, sayadil... I keep telling you... the capital is Ottawa.

Obviously, you don't. And it's not the first time.

I'll make you a deal. You stop being wrong, and I'll stop having to correct you.

sayadil

So what do you think the service guys are doing in there?[/QUOTE]

me n trebien are just discussing things.. its not a lovefest or whatever u called it. well i have never heard of dealerships begging people to come for warranty work.. yeah they do call for servicing which they get paid for... and also there's difference in a minor warranty work like changing bulbs to a major one.. like changing drive shaft or major suspension.
well the fact is you would not know untill you face a big problem.. dealers have just started fixing clunk problems.. even though the problem exited since 2003.. and at that time.. most dealers turned thier back on customers.. saying that it was normal for a car this big and decriibed it .. i quote " characterstics of GX" and the tsb that came out is coz of people like me who complained to federal agencies like NHSTA and thats when lexus started looking into that problem... so meanwhile your dealer begs you to come for warranty work.. gx owners everywhere were given the run around... same goes for rotors... people are having lot of problems with rotors... and it seems like a manufacture related defect.. but dealerships have told people they have to pay for it.. lexus won't cover it... they blame the drivers driving habit.... its funny.. theres already a complaint at NHSTa regarding the brakes too.. and it won't be long before they bring out a tsb addressing it..as i said to trebien just read through the forum you will know what i'm talking about.

SilverLady

Sayadil-

I closed the tire balancing thread because it was getting out of hand, everything was said, and it was becoming a personal battleground. Please don't open it up here again to continue that battle under a different topic.

Let's keep this thread civil and related to the original topic of tires.

sayadil

i dint start it ..; if you look under trebien he mentioned that i wasn't being wrong for the first time... so i had to remind him that i wasn't wrong and thats why i mentioned the tire. he brought it up.

The G Man

DO you really think that Lexus put all Michelins on the GX out of the goodness of their heart. They stand to save about $150 on each GX by pulling on Dunlops or bridgestone instead. The only reason they switch to all Michelin was that people were complaining about those other 2 tires brands.

sayadil

lol by the way lot of car companies change tires on thier cars over the period of time....and your talking 150 in retail difference.. but when companies buying at this large volume get a diff wholesale rates.. (and even wholesale rates differ.. depending on who the buyer is?) so that doesn't neccessarily justify the context.
if that was the case lexus would be doing it on all cars. brand new SC 430 which my fren just bought stil comes with dunlops..

the tires are changed on gx coz michelins compensate for the vibration that people were reporting. but there r customers on this forum who still notice the vibration even after changing to michelins.. so the vibration is not completely gone but improoved alot as reported by few (atleast 2 that i have read) but Hey i never said bridgestones or dunlops are better... tires like cars depend on individual tastes.. but these r big companies.. and duelers have been in the business too long to be faulty... there's nothing wrong with these tires.. these tires r the same tires in the market over the time.. not new designs.. and duelers Hts are OEM in few other suvs (inlcuding few toyotas) who r as heavy or more then GX... PLEASE NOT THAT 4RUNNER BUILT ON SIMILAR GX PLATFORM IS ALSO FULL OF VIBRATION ISSUES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED TO DIFF TIRES WITH NO LUCK! READ ANY 4RUNNER FORUM so i'm just saying if these tires r problems in GX then everyone would have a problem (which is not the case with everyone) the problem is in gx not the tires and also problems are also all different.. some have a pull with vibration.. some have vibration no pull and most have vibration n a drone noise... they have a tsb on it now most problems were reported in the begining about the vibration and at that time lexus had bridgestones they were the first official tires on GX which changed to Dunlops and then to michelins and they did noticed less vibratons with michelins and advised affected Customers likewise that tires r the problem rather then doing a recall but even after changing to michelins (roughly sometimes in 2004) they still had issues and after doing more research they released an Updated TSB (which u can find from the dealership or do a google search) and mentioned changing lot more steering plus driveline components including major front differential and thats the only way to take care of the vibration. . but most dealers have told customers the problem is the tire without performing the TSB. so the problems remain with the car and not the tire.. and that explains why people like me with bridgestones never had a problem while other people even after changing to different tires have complained about the problem... i mean now i have ventus on my car and i still have no problems with 2 non michelin brands...
You have to understand.. each tire has its advantages and disadvantages... they handle the same car in different ways.. while michelin is a very comfortable tire.. they r not as aggresively treaded(better offroad or snow) as duelers.. so every tire is different just like every car... bridgestones has lot of history behind it.. (be it .. the most recommended OEM tire in the world or the best formula 1 tires)

GX since release has been plagued with problems and is even called as "the first unreliable lexus" .Problems relia with the car and car itself.. not the tires.. which r on every car and working fine. hope that explains

The G Man

It is a good thing that you are not a bean counter for Lexus. Lets assume that Lexus sells an average of 3500 GX per year. Lets just say Lexus gets a 33% discount from the tire manufacturers. The price difference from 2003 to now would be roughly 1.5 million dollars. Listen, you are obviously a Bridgestone owner. I have driven on both tires. The wet and snow traction on the cross terrain is much better but if you live in a area that doesn't snow or rain that much, the difference would be almost unnoticeable, except for the price.