Fumoto Oil Drain valve
04-19-12, 07:49 AM
#16
Be careful of spreading misinformation. This Warranty Act does not state that the valve will not void your warranty. What is states is your warranty is not automatically null and void if you modify your vehicle. However, if a problem should arise and you have made a modification you will need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your modification to the engine lubrication system (I'm sure this is what they would call it) did not cause any sort of problem. Lawyers will be involved so you can throw common sense out the window.
The dealership will also need to prove that your modification did in fact cause whatever failure may occur.
I know how this works first hand. I owned a 2010 Ford Mustang GT. As many people do with a muscle car, I paid to have the stock exhaust replaced with a less restrictive cat-back system. Unfortunately for me the engine starting making serious ticking sounds with only 3300 miles on the odometer. The first thing Ford blamed was the aftermarket exhaust. The burden was on me to prove it was not the culprit. I won't go into more detail but let me say it took nearly 8 months to get the engine fixed under warranty. And that is only after I retained an attorney. Even then I am surprised the issue was resolved. I will never, again, modify a car while it is under warranty. Until you've dealt with a situation like this for yourself you probably cannot understand the amount of effort it takes to deal with huge corporations like Ford or Lexus who have the ability to employ nearly limitless resources.
I am with the others on this one. Don't add the valve. It is not worth the trouble it will cause if something unforeseen should arise.
Thanks
The dealership will also need to prove that your modification did in fact cause whatever failure may occur.
I know how this works first hand. I owned a 2010 Ford Mustang GT. As many people do with a muscle car, I paid to have the stock exhaust replaced with a less restrictive cat-back system. Unfortunately for me the engine starting making serious ticking sounds with only 3300 miles on the odometer. The first thing Ford blamed was the aftermarket exhaust. The burden was on me to prove it was not the culprit. I won't go into more detail but let me say it took nearly 8 months to get the engine fixed under warranty. And that is only after I retained an attorney. Even then I am surprised the issue was resolved. I will never, again, modify a car while it is under warranty. Until you've dealt with a situation like this for yourself you probably cannot understand the amount of effort it takes to deal with huge corporations like Ford or Lexus who have the ability to employ nearly limitless resources.
I am with the others on this one. Don't add the valve. It is not worth the trouble it will cause if something unforeseen should arise.
Thanks
Keep in mind we are taking about a valve replacing a drain bolt/plug. There is a BIG difference between a drain plug/valve and adding an exhaust system. I’m sure just about every scenario has been litigated and manufacturers pretty much know what is a winner and what is not. If the manufacturer could have proved the exhaust caused the ticking, they would have never agreed to honor the warranty. The manufacturer will roll the dice and see how far you were willing to go to make THEM prove the failure was caused by the part or mod. I would think if you would have pursued your case you could have gotten the legal costs back.
Koz
04-19-12, 09:47 AM
#17
Pole Position
Thread Starter
04-19-12, 05:37 PM
#18
Koz,
We will, again, have to agree to disagree. I have been through this process and I understand the reality of it. Have you ever had to legally fight one of the large automobile manufacturers for warranty coverage of a major component of the vehicle?
The oil plug is a major, yet minuscule in size, piece of your lubrication system. If it fails your engine oil is emptied. If it is replaced with an aftermarket valve and if your engine fails I promise you Lexus will make every attempt to say the valve at one point was stuck open and you lost the contents of your engine oil. They will accuse you of secretly replacing the oil and having the vehicle towed to the dealership. They will say, "The engine has failed. This normally happens when the engine oil level is too low for an extended period of time. We see a valve on the oil pan that could have opened without the driver knowing. We have also had no other failures of this type with this model of vehicle." Now the burden will be on you to prove it didn't happen. Right or wrong this is how the system works. Yes, this is a far fetched scenario but we all know "stuff" happens. Remember when the lady sued McDonalds because her "hot" coffee burned her? Such a ridiculous thing to not know your coffee is hot. Yet, she won a very large sum of money.
A cat-back exhaust system is not a major modification. In my case a few bolts were loosened, the cat-back fitted, and the bolts were re-torqued. Adding exhaust headers and high flow catalytic converters would be considered a major modification.
Based on your logic and interpretation of the Warranty act are you seriously telling me you would gather no data to defend yourself when confronted with a legal situation? Burden of proof always applies to both sides in a legal battle. Plaintiff must prove their case and the defendant must prove why they are not guilty. I hired an attorney to "defend" me; not to stand by and wait for Ford to present their story with no rebuttal from my side.
You are assuming Ford didn't pay for my legal representation in the end. I made no such statement.
I will add a bit of additional information to this thread that some of you may find useful. My attorney told me the biggest vehicle modification causing problems these days are aftermarket wheels. Because of the weight differences, different diameters of the wheels people are having transmission problems (mostly with AWD and 4WD vehicles) and trying to get the manufacturers to pay. This is a situation where the consumer will not win.
Thanks
We will, again, have to agree to disagree. I have been through this process and I understand the reality of it. Have you ever had to legally fight one of the large automobile manufacturers for warranty coverage of a major component of the vehicle?
The oil plug is a major, yet minuscule in size, piece of your lubrication system. If it fails your engine oil is emptied. If it is replaced with an aftermarket valve and if your engine fails I promise you Lexus will make every attempt to say the valve at one point was stuck open and you lost the contents of your engine oil. They will accuse you of secretly replacing the oil and having the vehicle towed to the dealership. They will say, "The engine has failed. This normally happens when the engine oil level is too low for an extended period of time. We see a valve on the oil pan that could have opened without the driver knowing. We have also had no other failures of this type with this model of vehicle." Now the burden will be on you to prove it didn't happen. Right or wrong this is how the system works. Yes, this is a far fetched scenario but we all know "stuff" happens. Remember when the lady sued McDonalds because her "hot" coffee burned her? Such a ridiculous thing to not know your coffee is hot. Yet, she won a very large sum of money.
A cat-back exhaust system is not a major modification. In my case a few bolts were loosened, the cat-back fitted, and the bolts were re-torqued. Adding exhaust headers and high flow catalytic converters would be considered a major modification.
Based on your logic and interpretation of the Warranty act are you seriously telling me you would gather no data to defend yourself when confronted with a legal situation? Burden of proof always applies to both sides in a legal battle. Plaintiff must prove their case and the defendant must prove why they are not guilty. I hired an attorney to "defend" me; not to stand by and wait for Ford to present their story with no rebuttal from my side.
You are assuming Ford didn't pay for my legal representation in the end. I made no such statement.
I will add a bit of additional information to this thread that some of you may find useful. My attorney told me the biggest vehicle modification causing problems these days are aftermarket wheels. Because of the weight differences, different diameters of the wheels people are having transmission problems (mostly with AWD and 4WD vehicles) and trying to get the manufacturers to pay. This is a situation where the consumer will not win.
Thanks
No one has spread misinformation. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act specifically prohibits an automotive dealership/carmaker (manufacturer) from voiding your warranty because your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They (the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the direct result of the installed aftermarket part or mod. This puts the burden of proof on the manufacturer, not the consumer. The act also allows the consumer to recover court costs and reasonable attorneys' fees. Yes, you will have to get a lawyer and if the manufacturer can prove the mod or part caused the failure you will lose and it will cost.
Keep in mind we are taking about a valve replacing a drain bolt/plug. There is a BIG difference between a drain plug/valve and adding an exhaust system. I’m sure just about every scenario has been litigated and manufacturers pretty much know what is a winner and what is not. If the manufacturer could have proved the exhaust caused the ticking, they would have never agreed to honor the warranty. The manufacturer will roll the dice and see how far you were willing to go to make THEM prove the failure was caused by the part or mod. I would think if you would have pursued your case you could have gotten the legal costs back.
Koz
Keep in mind we are taking about a valve replacing a drain bolt/plug. There is a BIG difference between a drain plug/valve and adding an exhaust system. I’m sure just about every scenario has been litigated and manufacturers pretty much know what is a winner and what is not. If the manufacturer could have proved the exhaust caused the ticking, they would have never agreed to honor the warranty. The manufacturer will roll the dice and see how far you were willing to go to make THEM prove the failure was caused by the part or mod. I would think if you would have pursued your case you could have gotten the legal costs back.
Koz
04-19-12, 08:13 PM
#19
Racer
the oil is another issue. if you dont get it changed and have it documented and something goes wrong, youre sol....
point is, i could change it, but i wont
04-20-12, 05:30 AM
#20
Pole Position
Thread Starter
Hum...doesn't oil wear down due to use too?Let's say you use aftermarket brake pads and they fail, as a result you have damage of rotors, calipers, etc...or even worse"God Forbid" an accident, what happens next?Changing brake pads involve more of taking apart components and is way more complicated than an oil change. I would think that because it involves more procedures the probability of screwing up is bigger than with an oil change. I have changed brake pads in my vehicles too and you definitely have to be more cautious. Brakes not done properly can cause a lot of warranty problems. When you say that when something is wear and tear, you mean that if you replace them, the warranty is not affected? Is that documented?
Last edited by MickeyS; 04-20-12 at 06:16 AM.
04-20-12, 06:41 AM
#21
Koz,
We will, again, have to agree to disagree. I have been through this process and I understand the reality of it. Have you ever had to legally fight one of the large automobile manufacturers for warranty coverage of a major component of the vehicle?
The oil plug is a major, yet minuscule in size, piece of your lubrication system. If it fails your engine oil is emptied. If it is replaced with an aftermarket valve and if your engine fails I promise you Lexus will make every attempt to say the valve at one point was stuck open and you lost the contents of your engine oil. They will accuse you of secretly replacing the oil and having the vehicle towed to the dealership. They will say, "The engine has failed. This normally happens when the engine oil level is too low for an extended period of time. We see a valve on the oil pan that could have opened without the driver knowing. We have also had no other failures of this type with this model of vehicle." Now the burden will be on you to prove it didn't happen. Right or wrong this is how the system works. Yes, this is a far fetched scenario but we all know "stuff" happens. Remember when the lady sued McDonalds because her "hot" coffee burned her? Such a ridiculous thing to not know your coffee is hot. Yet, she won a very large sum of money.
A cat-back exhaust system is not a major modification. In my case a few bolts were loosened, the cat-back fitted, and the bolts were re-torqued. Adding exhaust headers and high flow catalytic converters would be considered a major modification.
Based on your logic and interpretation of the Warranty act are you seriously telling me you would gather no data to defend yourself when confronted with a legal situation? Burden of proof always applies to both sides in a legal battle. Plaintiff must prove their case and the defendant must prove why they are not guilty. I hired an attorney to "defend" me; not to stand by and wait for Ford to present their story with no rebuttal from my side.
You are assuming Ford didn't pay for my legal representation in the end. I made no such statement.
I will add a bit of additional information to this thread that some of you may find useful. My attorney told me the biggest vehicle modification causing problems these days are aftermarket wheels. Because of the weight differences, different diameters of the wheels people are having transmission problems (mostly with AWD and 4WD vehicles) and trying to get the manufacturers to pay. This is a situation where the consumer will not win.
Thanks
We will, again, have to agree to disagree. I have been through this process and I understand the reality of it. Have you ever had to legally fight one of the large automobile manufacturers for warranty coverage of a major component of the vehicle?
The oil plug is a major, yet minuscule in size, piece of your lubrication system. If it fails your engine oil is emptied. If it is replaced with an aftermarket valve and if your engine fails I promise you Lexus will make every attempt to say the valve at one point was stuck open and you lost the contents of your engine oil. They will accuse you of secretly replacing the oil and having the vehicle towed to the dealership. They will say, "The engine has failed. This normally happens when the engine oil level is too low for an extended period of time. We see a valve on the oil pan that could have opened without the driver knowing. We have also had no other failures of this type with this model of vehicle." Now the burden will be on you to prove it didn't happen. Right or wrong this is how the system works. Yes, this is a far fetched scenario but we all know "stuff" happens. Remember when the lady sued McDonalds because her "hot" coffee burned her? Such a ridiculous thing to not know your coffee is hot. Yet, she won a very large sum of money.
A cat-back exhaust system is not a major modification. In my case a few bolts were loosened, the cat-back fitted, and the bolts were re-torqued. Adding exhaust headers and high flow catalytic converters would be considered a major modification.
Based on your logic and interpretation of the Warranty act are you seriously telling me you would gather no data to defend yourself when confronted with a legal situation? Burden of proof always applies to both sides in a legal battle. Plaintiff must prove their case and the defendant must prove why they are not guilty. I hired an attorney to "defend" me; not to stand by and wait for Ford to present their story with no rebuttal from my side.
You are assuming Ford didn't pay for my legal representation in the end. I made no such statement.
I will add a bit of additional information to this thread that some of you may find useful. My attorney told me the biggest vehicle modification causing problems these days are aftermarket wheels. Because of the weight differences, different diameters of the wheels people are having transmission problems (mostly with AWD and 4WD vehicles) and trying to get the manufacturers to pay. This is a situation where the consumer will not win.
Thanks
Yes, I went through a warranty issue with GM and in the end (took two years) they had to buy back the vehicle at the full purchase price (plus legal fee's). At the time of buy back, the vehicle had over 20K miles on it.
Koz
04-20-12, 11:53 AM
#22
Racer
Hum...doesn't oil wear down due to use too?Let's say you use aftermarket brake pads and they fail, as a result you have damage of rotors, calipers, etc...or even worse"God Forbid" an accident, what happens next?Changing brake pads involve more of taking apart components and is way more complicated than an oil change. I would think that because it involves more procedures the probability of screwing up is bigger than with an oil change. I have changed brake pads in my vehicles too and you definitely have to be more cautious. Brakes not done properly can cause a lot of warranty problems. When you say that when something is wear and tear, you mean that if you replace them, the warranty is not affected? Is that documented?
05-13-12, 12:27 AM
#23
Driver School Candidate
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I have used a Fumoto Drain Valve in my 2007 FJ Cruiser since the second oil change. I have had zero problems with it and consider it a very worthwhile part. I have 3/16" steel skid plates running from the front of the FJ all the way to the rear of the gas tank, so having something hit and damage the drain valve is highly unlikely. I have not looked under the 460 yet, but would feel confident in using this valve on it.
01-20-13, 02:05 PM
#24
Driver School Candidate
Not on my wife's GX since I have the dealer changing the oil. However, I bought it for my Escalade a few years ago since I change my own oil and it's awesome!
08-18-14, 08:50 AM
#25
I have used them on my 98 GS, my 03 RX300 and now my '13 GS 350.
unless the oil drains from that valve there isnt any case to be made that a non-moving part such as a drain plug would impact the moving parts of the engine.
unless the oil drains from that valve there isnt any case to be made that a non-moving part such as a drain plug would impact the moving parts of the engine.
08-18-14, 10:29 AM
#26
I have had one on my T4R for 20K miles, and a couple oil changes at the dealer without issue. Many folks run these with zero problems. These are very high quality valves and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.
If you are not doing your own oil changes and trust the dealer to put everything back as it was (specifically the drain plug - torqued correctly with new washer) then there is no reason to change it out. It does not void any warranty unless it can be proven that it directly caused the issue.
If you are not doing your own oil changes and trust the dealer to put everything back as it was (specifically the drain plug - torqued correctly with new washer) then there is no reason to change it out. It does not void any warranty unless it can be proven that it directly caused the issue.
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