Brake Problems. Dealer Liable?
01-20-17, 08:36 PM
#16
Driver School Candidate
Ok...this is what you need to calmly tell them....apparently you can't get them to agree to accept liability so you think it might be handled better by the court. You dropped the vehicle off in drivable condition and when you picked it up it was longer was safe for use on public roads and highways. That is the premise of the entire argument. No other details. It will cost you $100 to file in small claims court. They are not allowed to hire an attorney to represent them in small claims. They will have to send the service manager or something. Tell them that you already consulted with an attorney and they suggested that you take this route. Wait for their response......
01-20-17, 10:23 PM
#17
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Ok...this is what you need to calmly tell them....apparently you can't get them to agree to accept liability so you think it might be handled better by the court. You dropped the vehicle off in drivable condition and when you picked it up it was longer was safe for use on public roads and highways. That is the premise of the entire argument. No other details. It will cost you $100 to file in small claims court. They are not allowed to hire an attorney to represent them in small claims. They will have to send the service manager or something. Tell them that you already consulted with an attorney and they suggested that you take this route. Wait for their response......
The idea had not crossed my mind that I would need to go to a small claims court but I may reach out to a few friends that are attorneys and hear their thoughts. Should I escalate this issue to the service manager before filing a claim?
01-21-17, 01:27 AM
#18
Driver School Candidate
When you bring a vehicle to a mechanic there is an expectation that they know what they are doing. When You bring a specific vehicle to a dealership that exclusively sells and maintains that product...there is the expectation that they are the experts with that specific vehicle and should know how the parts of the vehicle operate better than anyone else. There is also a process when repairing certain parts. The vehicle was operating perfectly fine when it was dropped off and you would like them to provide you with proof that this specific repair just exacerbated the problem as they claim. Then you should ask him if it is possible that if the repair was not performed properly...would that negligence cause the failure. Tell them not to give you general statements but rather provide specific information because if they don't....they will have to provide it in court and risk the embarrassment of losing this case publicly and bring this negative attention to their dealership name. Print this and show it to the service manager if you would like. And I definitely suggest bringing it to their attention. Communication is key to solving any problem and you should definitely make every attempt possible before heading to court. Document every meeting and discussion explaining what was said. Good luck.
01-21-17, 06:43 AM
#19
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
When you bring a vehicle to a mechanic there is an expectation that they know what they are doing. When You bring a specific vehicle to a dealership that exclusively sells and maintains that product...there is the expectation that they are the experts with that specific vehicle and should know how the parts of the vehicle operate better than anyone else. There is also a process when repairing certain parts. The vehicle was operating perfectly fine when it was dropped off and you would like them to provide you with proof that this specific repair just exacerbated the problem as they claim. Then you should ask him if it is possible that if the repair was not performed properly...would that negligence cause the failure. Tell them not to give you general statements but rather provide specific information because if they don't....they will have to provide it in court and risk the embarrassment of losing this case publicly and bring this negative attention to their dealership name. Print this and show it to the service manager if you would like. And I definitely suggest bringing it to their attention. Communication is key to solving any problem and you should definitely make every attempt possible before heading to court. Document every meeting and discussion explaining what was said. Good luck.
So it boils down to what you said:
(1) Can the dealer be liable simply because i brought them a functioning vehicle when I dropped it off?
(2) Can they defend their case based on "this happens to vehicles that are old and have high mileages at random".
I think I'll send an e-mail to the service manager today as my next effort to remedy this situation... Thanks for laying out some solid questions and logic.
01-21-17, 12:07 PM
#20
Pole Position
IDK If its possible on these trucks, when I had my shop, a guy brought in a pick up truck, had it at another shop, they did all kinds of brake work to it, it had no pedal. I put it up in the air on the lift, took 1 look at it, who ever did the calipers had them on wrong! bleeders were facing down, not up. Man that guy was mad at the other shop, they started throwing on every part they could!
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drowssap (01-21-17)
01-31-17, 09:17 PM
#21
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I thought it was appropriate to provide an update. Here we are 3.5 weeks since I dropped off my car at the dealership. Last Monday I got the service manager involved who said he would reach out to the regional manager to see if they good do some goodwill on my master cylinder replacement. It's been a week now and the service manager has yet to receive a response.
To make matters worse, my loaner car was backed into/hit last week causing some minor but noticeable damage to the left back panel (gas cap area) and some scratches to hub cap. The person who hit me didn't leave an note, so now I have to look into using MY insurance to fix this issue. Had this damage been to my GX, I wouldn't think twice about fixing it. I'm growing nervous that the service manager is going to deliver bad news that they won't provide any goodwill for me on my GX.
To make matters worse, my loaner car was backed into/hit last week causing some minor but noticeable damage to the left back panel (gas cap area) and some scratches to hub cap. The person who hit me didn't leave an note, so now I have to look into using MY insurance to fix this issue. Had this damage been to my GX, I wouldn't think twice about fixing it. I'm growing nervous that the service manager is going to deliver bad news that they won't provide any goodwill for me on my GX.
02-02-17, 08:57 AM
#23
The rental car getting damaged is a separate issue that you'll have to call your insurance about. Who knows, maybe that's your leverage with this dealership?
I think you need to find the owner of the dealership or the "real" head guy (not just a service manager) and reach out to him, calmly tell them your situation where you went from having NO brake problems to a tech causing your entire system to need to be rebuilt after going from one repair to another. Your Master Cylinder had ZERO problems until you had them address your brake pads.
I hate to be litigious, but lawsuits do scare businesses, especially in cases where they know they share some real blame. I have a relative that owns a dealership and he has told me when someone credibly threatens to sue, they usually give them what they want.
You could also do something like pay the repairs with a credit card, then immediately dispute the charges with the CC company, then see them is small claims court.
My advice though is get the car out of there, its been there almost a month. Either have them repair and then dispute the repair charges with your day in court or have another shop make the repairs and ask the original dealership for that amount after the fact.
I just don't really see a credible case that your brakes went from no problem to such an expensive series of repairs so quickly unless someone badly messed up.
It's a crappy situation though, and no one is going to be happy when it's all said and done.
I think you need to find the owner of the dealership or the "real" head guy (not just a service manager) and reach out to him, calmly tell them your situation where you went from having NO brake problems to a tech causing your entire system to need to be rebuilt after going from one repair to another. Your Master Cylinder had ZERO problems until you had them address your brake pads.
I hate to be litigious, but lawsuits do scare businesses, especially in cases where they know they share some real blame. I have a relative that owns a dealership and he has told me when someone credibly threatens to sue, they usually give them what they want.
You could also do something like pay the repairs with a credit card, then immediately dispute the charges with the CC company, then see them is small claims court.
My advice though is get the car out of there, its been there almost a month. Either have them repair and then dispute the repair charges with your day in court or have another shop make the repairs and ask the original dealership for that amount after the fact.
I just don't really see a credible case that your brakes went from no problem to such an expensive series of repairs so quickly unless someone badly messed up.
It's a crappy situation though, and no one is going to be happy when it's all said and done.
02-02-17, 12:48 PM
#24
Lexus Champion
Freezing calipers is normal if the sliding pins were not lubricated every few years. That one is fully on you.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
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chiph9 (02-02-17)
02-02-17, 03:01 PM
#25
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I think you need to find the owner of the dealership or the "real" head guy (not just a service manager) and reach out to him, calmly tell them your situation where you went from having NO brake problems to a tech causing your entire system to need to be rebuilt after going from one repair to another. Your Master Cylinder had ZERO problems until you had them address your brake pads.
I hate to be litigious, but lawsuits do scare businesses, especially in cases where they know they share some real blame. I have a relative that owns a dealership and he has told me when someone credibly threatens to sue, they usually give them what they want.
You could also do something like pay the repairs with a credit card, then immediately dispute the charges with the CC company, then see them is small claims court.
My advice though is get the car out of there, its been there almost a month. Either have them repair and then dispute the repair charges with your day in court or have another shop make the repairs and ask the original dealership for that amount after the fact.
I just don't really see a credible case that your brakes went from no problem to such an expensive series of repairs so quickly unless someone badly messed up.
I hate to be litigious, but lawsuits do scare businesses, especially in cases where they know they share some real blame. I have a relative that owns a dealership and he has told me when someone credibly threatens to sue, they usually give them what they want.
You could also do something like pay the repairs with a credit card, then immediately dispute the charges with the CC company, then see them is small claims court.
My advice though is get the car out of there, its been there almost a month. Either have them repair and then dispute the repair charges with your day in court or have another shop make the repairs and ask the original dealership for that amount after the fact.
I just don't really see a credible case that your brakes went from no problem to such an expensive series of repairs so quickly unless someone badly messed up.
Freezing calipers is normal if the sliding pins were not lubricated every few years. That one is fully on you.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
I have no intention of just ponying up at this point. The service manager felt like this was a situation to bring to his regional rep so he did, over a week ago. This is on Lexus to reach some kind of verdict, whether it's favorable or unfavorable for me. I would have been happy to return the loaner car at any point but I figured it would take days not weeks to remedy this situation.
02-02-17, 07:42 PM
#26
Driver School Candidate
Freezing calipers is normal if the sliding pins were not lubricated every few years. That one is fully on you.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
Dealership tried to repair these for you, although that's a replacement right there because cylinder walls get scratched up due to caliper misalignment.
You paid $630 altogether, which should have been the cost of calipers by themselves, never mind labor and the pads.
The master cylinder went out. It's an old car, it happens, and is apparently common. Leaking condition was noticed during work performed.
Doesn't sound like a mechanic's fault to me.
The dealership gave you a loaner for 3 weeks and you managed to have it damaged and not happy with having your insurance fixing it.
IMHO, the dealer is bending way over for you while you keep complaining of alleged neglect.
Just pony-up and fix the problem! Take it to an indie shop or DIY if you want to save money.
02-03-17, 06:06 AM
#27
Pole Position
Let's chill out with the personal attacks.
Chip H.
Chip H.
02-03-17, 06:22 AM
#28
The fact is, your master cylinder and brake system performed fine, not withstanding the seized calipers, when you dropped your GX off. The vehicle was in their care and when you went to pick it up, it was broken.
Secondly, improper bleeding technique can damage seals and the master cylinder e.g. if they let the fluid level to drop too low (run dry during the bleeding), did they apply too much pressure to the brake pedal, did they not remove the excess sediment from the reservoir before bleeding etc?
Were the brakes vacuum bled, pressure bled, single or two person bled?
Brake fluid changes, brake jobs etc are often left to a Jr tech to complete, not the master technician.
Secondly, improper bleeding technique can damage seals and the master cylinder e.g. if they let the fluid level to drop too low (run dry during the bleeding), did they apply too much pressure to the brake pedal, did they not remove the excess sediment from the reservoir before bleeding etc?
Were the brakes vacuum bled, pressure bled, single or two person bled?
Brake fluid changes, brake jobs etc are often left to a Jr tech to complete, not the master technician.
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BradTank (02-03-17)
02-03-17, 09:14 AM
#29
Secondly, improper bleeding technique can damage seals and the master cylinder e.g. if they let the fluid level to drop too low (run dry during the bleeding), did they apply too much pressure to the brake pedal, did they not remove the excess sediment from the reservoir before bleeding etc?
Were the brakes vacuum bled, pressure bled, single or two person bled?
Brake fluid changes, brake jobs etc are often left to a Jr tech to complete, not the master technician.
Were the brakes vacuum bled, pressure bled, single or two person bled?
Brake fluid changes, brake jobs etc are often left to a Jr tech to complete, not the master technician.
This was my first thought as well, if you bleed them and they go dry, it can take out a master cylinder because the seals get messed up.
The fact the OP went from taking his car in on something completely unrelated and was upsold new brake pads, to then sticking slider pins needing to be addressed, to then new calipers, to then a whole new master cylinder screams to me that someone in the shop either badly misdiagnosed or screwed up the job and didn't know what they were doing and are now covering their ***.
And yes, usually things like bleeding brakes is where the "new guy" gets started.
Again, the OP had NO brake problems when he brought the car in, all of this came about from an upsell of new pads that basically every dealership is required to make whether the car needs them or not.
02-03-17, 12:25 PM
#30
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
The dealership finally got back to me this afternoon. Lexus offered me a $1,200 credit on the master cylinder part. So it brought down the total cost from $3,652.41 to $2,452.41. Meanwhile, I can buy the toyota equivalent for $2,100 part (http://www.toyotaonlineparts.com/oe-toyota/4705060081).
I told my rep that I'll likely bring this to a small claims court but he didn't seem to bothered by me saying that. I think the best move that I can make at this point is to pick up my vehicle from the dealer get the repair done elsewhere and then take the issue to a small claims court. Does anyone else recommend a different course of action?
Thanks for helping me through this process. I greatly appreciate the time and energy you spent trying to assist me.
I told my rep that I'll likely bring this to a small claims court but he didn't seem to bothered by me saying that. I think the best move that I can make at this point is to pick up my vehicle from the dealer get the repair done elsewhere and then take the issue to a small claims court. Does anyone else recommend a different course of action?
Thanks for helping me through this process. I greatly appreciate the time and energy you spent trying to assist me.