Johnny Rad

After ~8 years of troublefree ownership, I'm strongly considering replacing my 2GS4. My new auto will be awd. I value performance (at least in a straight line), luxury and reliability. MPG is not a key criteria.

Am I crazy to consider buying a '12-13 Audi S4 or '12 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8?!
* The Audi is awd and fast. Not sure it's luxury, but it's pure class IMHO. Consumer Reports says it's considerably less reliable than Lexus.
* The SRT8 is also awd and fast. Again, I'm not sure it's luxury. Consumer Reports says it's got better reliability than the Audi, but it still looks far from great.

How'd I get here with the Audi and Jeep?! Well, I've decided the new body style '12 GS350 F-Sport AWD is a good, but not great car. It's awd, reliable and lux - but, needs more motor and a wood int option on the F-Sport. Plus, I can't justify it costing $20k more than an '08-09 GS350 AWD that has the same powertrain. In short, I'm not head over heels for it.

The unique looking Infiniti FX50 Sport is ~10% faster, but my money would only get a '10-'11 model. That's one or two years older (and more miles) than the '12 GS. It's small and low profile tires probably mean I'll have to steer clear of potholes, so what's the point of it being a SUV? All in all, that's a tough pill to swallow.

Now I'm wondering if I'm crazy to consider the S4 or SRT8?! Can they possibly be lux and reliable?!

Fluid

iTrader: (1)

I often find myself in car choice dilemmas ... my wife hates it

Audi S4: I never owned a B8 (2009+) A4/S4 but have spent quite a bit of seat time in an A4 as a loaner while mine had been serviced. I can tell you the fit/finish is very nice on those cars - I'm not sure what your criteria is for 'luxury' but I imagine it's a equal/better than what your GS. It's modern and has all the current technology. Well executed and German tightness. I would have like to drive the S4, I'm sure it probably meets your performance criteria. Reliability? Well, mine began really pinging me after 60k miles and I sold it with 70k. If you don't plan to keep it that long then no problem, but I wouldn't be surprised by that. Quality is top notch but Reliability maybe not as much.

SRT8: I like this vehicle - nice design and engine to go with it. If you go this route, I would recommend committing to have two sets of wheels because what good is a Cherokee if you don't/can't go off road??? The performance of the SRT8 results in the OEM setup of the wheels/tires but regulates it to street duty only which is sort of like de-engineering it ... a 2nd set of off road wheels/tires would give you back a lot of vehicle for low investment. Most non-3rd row SUVs don't have much more space than a car/sedan so you have the trade-off of enjoying the daily driving of sports sedan vs. additional space.

FX50: This vehicle has always perplexed me. I give it kudos for unique design. But to me ... what is it? IMO, its not an SUV because it's not off road capable (that's my definition, not the Industries - most SUV are lifted station wagons) and doesn't have much 'utility' space. Since it has little of either, I'd prefer a Sport Sedan that at least is way more fun to drive. But back to design - if you like it then go for it, it's your money and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Decent engine from what I hear.

Since you already own a Lexus GS, I would go with the S4 to try something different. You're not locked in so enjoy for a year and decide to keep or move on. I like the new GS and considered one to replace my Audi but changed my criteria (input from wife) to space/3rd row and off road exploration (input from buddy with Land Cruiser) and ended up with my '05 GX and money to spare Very happy so far. Good luck!

Johnny Rad

I keep my cars a long time, which is really hard to do since I'm a car nut. I find it extremely difficult to give up on my GS, which has been ultra reliable and can still put a smile on face. Being cheap also keeps me in the GS.

It pains me to "roll the dice" on a car that may or may not wet the bed in the near future. If the Jeep and Audi are on borrowed time, it'd be a big knock against them. I trust the FX and the new GS goes without saying.

I don't trust VW farther than I can drop kick it, so why am I debating it's beautiful sister - Audi?!

Jeeps have never been knowing for their reliability either, but here I am being mesmerized by one with a honking V8. I'm so shallow.

FX? It's got every button out there: keyless, vented seats, cameras and a 390hp V8. And it's reliable. Too bad it costs so much still. For the same dough, I'm getting a lower mileage, newer GS350 F-Sport awd. That Lexus is 2x the car that ant Infiniti ever will be. Too bad it's not faster...

YoshiMan

I would stick to the Infiniti if it's what rings your bell. I can understand wanting a little more "OOOMPH" that the Lexus provides, but When i worked at a Lexus dealer a few years back, most of the Audi's that were traded in had Mechanical problems out the butt, and a good majority of the electronics inside didn't work at all.

I think that Chrysler products are fine and dandy so long as you don't keep them extended periods of time.. They don't seem to age well from all the people I know who own them.

I am usually all Toyota, but I flirted with an 03' Cadillac Escalade for about a year before i got my GX. Its low comparative price, Huge V8, large size and towing capacity were very attractive, but It ultimately was totally worn out at 130k miles and was nothing but a money pit from the moment i owned it, to when I traded it in!

470reasons

All the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8's that were in my price range were beat to *****. And the SRT8 gas mileage makes a GX look like a green vehicle. Still ALL SRT's have that "cool" factor and that exhaust note....OOOOH.

jmgraham78

I own an Audi - Yes it is an older 2001 Allroad, but it has been a beat of a car for me. it has full air ride suspension and the fit an finish of the 01 is on comparison to a newer vehicle. The motor is a 2.7 twin turbo and is about as reliable as a twin turbo motor can be. Maintenance is key on the the german cars, so just keep up with that and you will be good. Toyota reliability is near legendary, but lets not forget the germans can build some badass cars. I know this won't help with your decision as the Audi I am speaking of is nearly a generation behind what you are looking at. The B8 S4 your speaking of is a 4.2L V8, for sure a beast and it should be much more reliable than a forced induction motor. Make no bones of it, Audi = VW, however it is luxury to the T's

At any rate, good luck with your choice sir!

chiph9

On the S4 - price out the cost of changing the timing chains & guides.

Chip H.

Johnny Rad

I drove a new '14 Grand Cherokee SRT over the weekend and was underwhelmed: I'm not a new buyer @ ~$70k.

Cons (or at least stuff that isn't a clear pro):
* Mainly, I wasn't blown away by its performance. I'm at >4k' and it wasn't broken-in, so it was probably only doing low 5's to 60. With 470hp under the hood, I was more than a little dismayed. Granted I didn't use Launch Mode, which I understand delivers a bit more performance - but, it's only available off the line and cuts out of Launch Mode the second the driver takes off full throttle.
* I was also disappointed on the material choices beginning at knee-level and down - that's where the bean counters' favorite hard plastics resided. For ~$70k, I expected more. Aside from the optional Elmo (wow, soft!) and the Alcantara fuzzy headliner, it was a lot of the same stuff in an entry-level Laredo.
* Found it odd to have to work the tranny paddles overtime to drop it from 8th to something like 3rd or 4th to get any noticeable engine braking. It's probably a fact of life with modern trannys and one that I'd get used to over time.
* Also, the A-pillar is incredibly fat and significantly hampers visibility on left-handers. I'd like to think that I'd get over it, but think that "getting over it" means either driving kinda blind or having to squirm around trying to keep an eye on what's coming.
* Finally, I'm just not ready to be a test case for the "new and improved" Jeep / Chrysler / Fiat product line. I didn't have to dig too deeply online to find plenty of current reasons not to buy (JD Power, Consumer Reports, etc). Online owner's forums have a more favorable opinion, but it's still far from great.

Pro's:
* Looks great; better in person than pics.
* Lots of room in the backseat and enough useable room for me in the cargo area.
* Nav was easy to use with good graphics. Seemed like a fair number of cool features, but a HUD would be a nice addition. Hard to believe, but their online service only costs $15/yr. Seems too good to be true.
* Engine fires up and settles into a nice little burble. Also makes cool backfiring sounds when I'd get out of the throttle somewhat abruptly. However, planting the throttle only yielded a pretty good - not great - sound.
* The 8spd tranny was smooth and I liked the rev-matching downshifts. Up and down shifts were smooth and not noticeable.
* Definitely a smooth ride and the suspension never complained on bad roads, speed bumps or dips. I tried!
* It was also quiet when I was off the throttle just cruising, which was a nice thing.

All in all, I can't bring myself to pay that much for the Jeep. An SQ5 and S4 is less with a nicer interior.

Next? Audi dealership. I expect to be wow'd by their product, but ultimately find myself unwilling to roll the dice on their reliability.

Reality? I wouldn't be surprised if my future short list only included a '13 LS460 awd, '13-14 GS350 awd. Why can't Lexus make something awd with some ******* muscle?! The '13 LX570 might be a long shot.

Opinions always welcomed!

Johnny Rad

I drove a new '14 Audi S4 last week was quite impressed, but it's a driver's car and not a lux car. I appreciate lux and want hi-performance. Did I say I was impressed?! It's a really impressive driver's car.

Pro's:
* Feels as good as it looks. Audi spent it's $ wisely on the cabin materials and it shows. Seats were firm without being overly boy racer hard. Soft touch materials throughout. Overall, very impressive.
* Looks as good as it feels. Loads of subtle, classy chrome accents throughout the cabin (like the edges of buttons, switchgear, etc). Overall, very impressive.
* It really moves when the hammer goes down. Beat it with a stick and it turns out a healthy soundtrack (not sure, but I hope Audi isn't piping in a fake engine noise into the cabin ala BMW). Otherwise, it's happy to calmly and quietly motor about town. Overall, very impressive.
* Handles ~48x better than my 2GS4, but that was to be expected. It's a firm, but not jarring ride (std suspension and not the optional adaptive air susp). I didn't drive it too crazy, but it absolutely goes where it's pointed and the salesman said I was far, far, far from the edge much less stressing the optional sports diff. Overall, very impressive.
* Rev matching downshifts on the 8spd auto were EPIC. Zero complaints. Unlike the Jeep SRT's 8spd where I had to bang away with multiple downshifts (3?) to finally get some compression braking, the Audi seemed to only need 2 downshifts. Overall, very impressive.

Con's:
* No Avant. Salesman says they never sold well-enough for Audi to keep 'em coming to America. I knew the S4 wasn't available in a wagon, but it was sad to hear it won't change anytime soon. Minor bummer.
* The back seats fold down, but I'm not convinced my 29er MTB will fit since the "rear windshield shelf" stays put. My road bike will fit. I'm not a bike rack guy, so that's not an option. Probably do-able "as is." (Yes, both fit in the backseat of my GS one at a time with the front tires removed, though the MTB is a darn tight fit. No, I'm not damaging a thing doing it either. Promise!)
* No a/c or ventilated seats. Big downer. It's available in just about everything these days.
* Their new partnership with Google maps is a misnomer. As I understand, its nav never uses google maps to show you where to go (it instead uses another, far less pretty source for maps). For $30/mo, you can get Internet in the car and use it as a wifi hotspot. What I expected would be a cool pro, is a big downer.
* No remote start, but aftermarket is available on the auto I suspect. Probably no biggie.

Bottomline, I can't / don't trust it for long-term reliability. Still toying with it, but it's probably out.

While it fares better in CR reliability than the Jeep, it's certainly no Toyo / Lexus (then again, what is?!). When I asked the salesman about suspect reliability, he blamed Asian suppliers of computers, relays, etc. After that, all I heard was blah, blah, blah. Give me a break.

Next up? Hmm, probably a '13-14 GS350 AWD and '13 LS460 F-Sport AWD. Too bad neither give me any straight line performance improvement or mpg improvement.

A CTS-V Sport Wagon is calling my name, but I think I'd try a year of snow tires on my GS before buying another RWD. Just to be sure, you know.

greg3852

If you are looking for luxury and power, you may need to expand to Mercedes. I know huge reliability issues, but if you are looking at an $80K car, then you will be getting a warranty. As long as the Mercedes is under warranty any reliability issues that may pop up would be covered.

An S550 can be had up over 600hp if you feel like paying for it.

My LS 460 has all the luxury and power I need. It's like driving a fast comfy couch.

chiph9

Agree in never buying German unless you're covered by a warranty.
I love the way they drive, but can't deal with the constant expensive repairs.

Former owner: 1999 ML-320 (20 repair visits in 3 years), 2003 Cooper S (9 repair visits in 1 year), 1995 Jetta GLX (12 repair visits in 4 years)

The Japanese cars aren't perfect (Civic: 4 repair visits for same complaint), but your chances are much higher.

Chip H.

sdhayesky

why not go drive a new 3 series wagon? I currently have in my stable a 99 540iT, which has been fairly dependable, barring wear and tear items I've had to replace in the 2 years I've had it. at 131K, it's still
tight, and quiet while cruising, and fast. just food for thought. Its going on the block because of my lust for a GX

Johnny Rad

I read it here from a knowledgeable poster and the data confirms it - never own a BMW out of warranty. Despite believing I've been a BMW-guy for years, I'm not even tempted by one for long-term ownership.

(Is that even possible?! I probably have to renounce my BMW thing.)

Your 540 is awesome! It's a wagon, right? That's partially why I'm enticed by the CTS-V wagon (honking V8 in an ultimate sleeper with huge utility).

I'm super big on the 2002, first-gen M3, shark-nosed first-gen M5/M6. Not to mention the still gorgeous Z8. And how can I leave out the 850csi?! Awkward stripes aside, I also like a lot of the older Aplinas models.

sdhayesky

Yes, wagon. Been a pretty easy car to wrench on myself, despite having no prior knowledge or mechanic's experience at all. CTS-V wagon sounds like the way to go!

Johnny Rad

I drove a Cadillac CTS-V sedan last week and was really impressed. It's got some muscle! Real muscle. The V is plenty good enough that I could do it, but I'm doubtful of its true winter capabilities. I've got it at the top of my list ahead of the Jeep (last place) and S4 (second place).

Cons (or at least stuff that isn't a clear pro):
* RWD is a far cry from AWD and its 400ft tq at idle (!!!) feels like it'd easily overwhelm snow tires. I think I'd have to idle off from each stop! Ugh...
* Its smallish 18gal gas tank and poor MPG will ensure that I'm constantly pumping gas. It was eye-opening to realize I'd be refueling every ~175mi versus ~300mi. (Since my 2GS4 isn't exactly fuel efficient, I'm only talking ~$20-45 more each month and that's OK.)
* The new '14 CTS really makes the older CTS-V interior (the "disappearing" navi didn't help) and exterior look dated. It was more than acceptable without any glaring deficiencies, but lacked anything exciting given how far some car interiors have come these days.
* Interior material quality is better than Jeep, but not on par with the S4 or a '13 GS350. The three black plastic pieces on the steering wheel and center console are awfully flimsy feeling. Readouts on the instrument cluster (tach, speedo, etc) are small and hard to read. I'm sure I'd adjust just fine, but it's odd nevertheless.

Pro's:
* Muscle! Has power in spades (duh!) and its traction control isn't a buzz kill (like my Lexus that kills the fun pedal when it senses "trouble"). On left turns from an intersection at partial throttle, I felt the rear end shimmy more than once during the same turn. It's got way more power than I'm used to. I wouldn't get tired of it!
* MR suspension was equally fantastic in both touring and sport mode. It's a very firm ride and I felt most road imperfections through my seat, but the small stuff was highly muted. Felt like there was enough suppleness in the active (?) suspension that it happily ate up the little stuff while still providing a firm ride. I wouldn't get tired of it!
* Has all the features I'm looking for - ventilated seats, remote start, roof, navi, etc.
* Whereas the seats in the SRT GC were uncomfortable, the aggressively bolstered Recaros were dynamite. No change needed!
* I like the utility and novelty of the V Sport Wagon.

Despite the launch of the new CTS, the second-gen is an absolutely impressive car. I'm convinced that it'd be a great 3-season car, but the non-stop refueling and winter capabliity holds me back. I'm even convinced that it'd be reliable enough.

However, the launch of new V Sport begs the question of what the V delivers that the newer V Sport can't for the same $. The V Sport is 90% the performer at the same price, but wrapped in a newer package with loads more shiny features. Unfortunately, it's also RWD. I'm contemplating the V Sport, but am thinking I need to stick to my guns and go AWD.

[Winter blows!]