just compared M45 to GS430, and the winner is...
04-04-05, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
As I said, the move from the 4.0 to 4.3 was just a displacement boost, and VVT-i added. It became a ULEV engine, but power didn't increase a whole lot (Torque increased a bit). The 4.6 V8 is going to be more than just a displacement boost, and more than just Dual VVT-i added. It will have Direct Injection, which boosts power and fuel economy considerably, as well as other changes no doubt. Again, I speculate it could be an all new V8 engine family, as the UZ is getting really dated. Either way, all reports say the engine will have at least 350HP, and more Torque. If it was a simple displacement bump, Toyota could have done it quickly and easily like they did bumping the MZ engines from 3 to 3.3. With that in mind, they could've put the bumped up engine into the 2005 LS and the 2006 GS, but they didn't. This hints at the idea that this engine will be a big boost and a significant change; possibly a new engine family which I think it very well may be.
The M45 beats the GS430 by a whisker in straight line speed, as I said. Even though you may feel it clearly beats the GS, it doesn't. The M45 may have firmer handling, or a firmer "sporty" ride, but that's all preference and perception, as the slalom times for both cars were pretty much equal. It makes perfect sense that the M45 is heavier, but only a tiny bit faster. I also heard somewhere the M's gearing is more aggressive, and not as smooth as the GS. Another thing to consider, the GS did not get a big performance improvement when moving to the 6 speed because it has a huge amount of electronics. This ultimately puts stress on the engine, and I think the gen 3 GS puts less power to the wheels than the Gen 2 because of that. In return,the Gen 3 performs slighly better than the Gen 2 overall thanks to the 6 speed.
I also won't beat a dead horse by arguing how much attention to detail the GS has compared to the M, and how the GS has VDIM, a huge advantage over the M in real world driving conditions.
In short, the M and GS are both good cars, they are both close enough to call it a draw. But seeing as we here are Lexus lovers and enthusiasts, most of us still prefer the GS. IF you want to be fair, the differences between the 2 mainly come down to preference, and personal opinion.
The M45 beats the GS430 by a whisker in straight line speed, as I said. Even though you may feel it clearly beats the GS, it doesn't. The M45 may have firmer handling, or a firmer "sporty" ride, but that's all preference and perception, as the slalom times for both cars were pretty much equal. It makes perfect sense that the M45 is heavier, but only a tiny bit faster. I also heard somewhere the M's gearing is more aggressive, and not as smooth as the GS. Another thing to consider, the GS did not get a big performance improvement when moving to the 6 speed because it has a huge amount of electronics. This ultimately puts stress on the engine, and I think the gen 3 GS puts less power to the wheels than the Gen 2 because of that. In return,the Gen 3 performs slighly better than the Gen 2 overall thanks to the 6 speed.
I also won't beat a dead horse by arguing how much attention to detail the GS has compared to the M, and how the GS has VDIM, a huge advantage over the M in real world driving conditions.
In short, the M and GS are both good cars, they are both close enough to call it a draw. But seeing as we here are Lexus lovers and enthusiasts, most of us still prefer the GS. IF you want to be fair, the differences between the 2 mainly come down to preference, and personal opinion.
04-04-05, 01:24 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
i think Infiniti is more likely to take away from potential BMW 5 series sales.
04-04-05, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by flipside909
Well the initial sales numbers show the GS has sold over a 1000 units more than the M has and they were both sold to the public about the same exact time.
I do think that the GS will take more sales away from the E, and the M is more likely to take sales away from the 5.
The Gen2 GS was pretty successful in the first few years.
GS sales:
2000=28,079
1999=31,884
1998=30,622
As you can see, the GS has sold pretty well in the past. The problem was that Toyota neglected to redesign the car for 8 years, which is pretty long by Japanese standards.
On the other hand, Infiniti has never had success in this segment. In essence, all of the M buyers are coming from somewhere else, and are not repeat buyers. All things considered, Nissan has to be pretty happy that the M sold over 2200 cars in the first month.
(I'm slacking too much, alright back to work.)
Last edited by jrock65; 04-04-05 at 02:16 PM.
04-04-05, 03:03 PM
#49
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
As I said, the move from the 4.0 to 4.3 was just a displacement boost, and VVT-i added. It became a ULEV engine, but power didn't increase a whole lot (Torque increased a bit). The 4.6 V8 is going to be more than just a displacement boost, and more than just Dual VVT-i added. It will have Direct Injection, which boosts power and fuel economy considerably, as well as other changes no doubt. Again, I speculate it could be an all new V8 engine family, as the UZ is getting really dated. Either way, all reports say the engine will have at least 350HP, and more Torque. If it was a simple displacement bump, Toyota could have done it quickly and easily like they did bumping the MZ engines from 3 to 3.3. With that in mind, they could've put the bumped up engine into the 2005 LS and the 2006 GS, but they didn't. This hints at the idea that this engine will be a big boost and a significant change; possibly a new engine family which I think it very well may be.
The M45 beats the GS430 by a whisker in straight line speed, as I said. Even though you may feel it clearly beats the GS, it doesn't. The M45 may have firmer handling, or a firmer "sporty" ride, but that's all preference and perception, as the slalom times for both cars were pretty much equal. It makes perfect sense that the M45 is heavier, but only a tiny bit faster. I also heard somewhere the M's gearing is more aggressive, and not as smooth as the GS. Another thing to consider, the GS did not get a big performance improvement when moving to the 6 speed because it has a huge amount of electronics. This ultimately puts stress on the engine, and I think the gen 3 GS puts less power to the wheels than the Gen 2 because of that. In return,the Gen 3 performs slighly better than the Gen 2 overall thanks to the 6 speed.
I also won't beat a dead horse by arguing how much attention to detail the GS has compared to the M, and how the GS has VDIM, a huge advantage over the M in real world driving conditions.
In short, the M and GS are both good cars, they are both close enough to call it a draw. But seeing as we here are Lexus lovers and enthusiasts, most of us still prefer the GS. IF you want to be fair, the differences between the 2 mainly come down to preference, and personal opinion.
The M45 beats the GS430 by a whisker in straight line speed, as I said. Even though you may feel it clearly beats the GS, it doesn't. The M45 may have firmer handling, or a firmer "sporty" ride, but that's all preference and perception, as the slalom times for both cars were pretty much equal. It makes perfect sense that the M45 is heavier, but only a tiny bit faster. I also heard somewhere the M's gearing is more aggressive, and not as smooth as the GS. Another thing to consider, the GS did not get a big performance improvement when moving to the 6 speed because it has a huge amount of electronics. This ultimately puts stress on the engine, and I think the gen 3 GS puts less power to the wheels than the Gen 2 because of that. In return,the Gen 3 performs slighly better than the Gen 2 overall thanks to the 6 speed.
I also won't beat a dead horse by arguing how much attention to detail the GS has compared to the M, and how the GS has VDIM, a huge advantage over the M in real world driving conditions.
In short, the M and GS are both good cars, they are both close enough to call it a draw. But seeing as we here are Lexus lovers and enthusiasts, most of us still prefer the GS. IF you want to be fair, the differences between the 2 mainly come down to preference, and personal opinion.
In contrast the M45 4.5L engine achieves 74HP/L - which would translate to 370HP in a 5.0L - assuming no major technological advances. I'd assume that Infiniti would eventually add the tech goodies too. So displacement isn't as important as the overall output - and then how that is geared to get it to the pavement.
As for the current gen 4.3L V8 I'd be willing to bet a grand that Lexus could squeeze 30 HP more out of that engine if they wanted to. I think that the decision was made to put the engineering resources into the new engine instead of throwing it at the old one. Additionally, there would be tradeoff''s of reliability, economy and NHV in order to get the extra HP from the current engine. I admire Lexus for this decision. Sometimes you choose to lose a battle in order to win a war.
As for the 450h vs 460 - that one has me curious. Depending upon the electric motors used, it is quite conceivable that the 450h would be the better performer. Some electric motors generate a tremendous amount of torque. The only contrary issue is the added weight of batteries. So I'm curious as to how Lexus sees these 2 cars on their roadmap. Maybe they will both have close performance but the 450h will have the added fuel economy.
I'm glad you mentioned the equivalent slalom performance. I have mentioned this in a few other posts but it didn't get much traction. With a stiffer suspension and active rear-steering you might think that the slalom numbers would be better than the GS. So the GS delivers a more luxurious ride yet still actually handles quite well.
With all of this said - as I have said in other posts - I like both cars. Infiniti has done a real nice job on the M. I happen to like the GS better and that is why I bought one. But the M would probably be my choice if the GS weren't available. The RL is nice too. There are slight design trade-offs between these cars. IMO, they are all "Performance-Luxury". I can see why someone would choose the M if that extra bit of performance is what they wanted. I was willing to trade a few ticks of the clock for what I perceived to be more luxury and refinement.
04-04-05, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jrock65
You mean LESS than 1000 units more than the M.
I do think that the GS will take more sales away from the E, and the M is more likely to take sales away from the 5.
The Gen2 GS was pretty successful in the first few years.
GS sales:
2000=28,079
1999=31,884
1998=30,622
As you can see, the GS has sold pretty well in the past. The problem was that Toyota neglected to redesign the car for 8 years, which is pretty long by Japanese standards.
On the other hand, Infiniti has never had success in this segment. In essence, all of the M buyers are coming from somewhere else, and are not repeat buyers. All things considered, Nissan has to be pretty happy that the M sold over 2200 cars in the first month.
(I'm slacking too much, alright back to work.)
I do think that the GS will take more sales away from the E, and the M is more likely to take sales away from the 5.
The Gen2 GS was pretty successful in the first few years.
GS sales:
2000=28,079
1999=31,884
1998=30,622
As you can see, the GS has sold pretty well in the past. The problem was that Toyota neglected to redesign the car for 8 years, which is pretty long by Japanese standards.
On the other hand, Infiniti has never had success in this segment. In essence, all of the M buyers are coming from somewhere else, and are not repeat buyers. All things considered, Nissan has to be pretty happy that the M sold over 2200 cars in the first month.
(I'm slacking too much, alright back to work.)
04-04-05, 07:22 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by enigma354
Good job to the new GS! Perhaps with new engines but the same timeless body, in the future the GS can continue excellent sales!
04-04-05, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sandman
TRDFantasy, I'd like to add to what you say in support of that. If you look at the new 3.0L V6 at 245 HP and look at the reported 315 HP for the 3.5L V6, you can calculate 82 HP/L and 90 HP/L respectively. I think it is fair to assume that the new 4.6L V8 will have all of the new technology you mentioned and that achieving 80-90HP/L is reasonable. This would translate to 380-420 HP! Combine that with a 6-speed and a fairly low curb weight and you know that this car will rip! I'd be looking for numbers at 5.0s +/-.
In contrast the M45 4.5L engine achieves 74HP/L - which would translate to 370HP in a 5.0L - assuming no major technological advances. I'd assume that Infiniti would eventually add the tech goodies too. So displacement isn't as important as the overall output - and then how that is geared to get it to the pavement.
As for the current gen 4.3L V8 I'd be willing to bet a grand that Lexus could squeeze 30 HP more out of that engine if they wanted to. I think that the decision was made to put the engineering resources into the new engine instead of throwing it at the old one. Additionally, there would be tradeoff''s of reliability, economy and NHV in order to get the extra HP from the current engine. I admire Lexus for this decision. Sometimes you choose to lose a battle in order to win a war.
As for the 450h vs 460 - that one has me curious. Depending upon the electric motors used, it is quite conceivable that the 450h would be the better performer. Some electric motors generate a tremendous amount of torque. The only contrary issue is the added weight of batteries. So I'm curious as to how Lexus sees these 2 cars on their roadmap. Maybe they will both have close performance but the 450h will have the added fuel economy.
I'm glad you mentioned the equivalent slalom performance. I have mentioned this in a few other posts but it didn't get much traction. With a stiffer suspension and active rear-steering you might think that the slalom numbers would be better than the GS. So the GS delivers a more luxurious ride yet still actually handles quite well.
With all of this said - as I have said in other posts - I like both cars. Infiniti has done a real nice job on the M. I happen to like the GS better and that is why I bought one. But the M would probably be my choice if the GS weren't available. The RL is nice too. There are slight design trade-offs between these cars. IMO, they are all "Performance-Luxury". I can see why someone would choose the M if that extra bit of performance is what they wanted. I was willing to trade a few ticks of the clock for what I perceived to be more luxury and refinement.
In contrast the M45 4.5L engine achieves 74HP/L - which would translate to 370HP in a 5.0L - assuming no major technological advances. I'd assume that Infiniti would eventually add the tech goodies too. So displacement isn't as important as the overall output - and then how that is geared to get it to the pavement.
As for the current gen 4.3L V8 I'd be willing to bet a grand that Lexus could squeeze 30 HP more out of that engine if they wanted to. I think that the decision was made to put the engineering resources into the new engine instead of throwing it at the old one. Additionally, there would be tradeoff''s of reliability, economy and NHV in order to get the extra HP from the current engine. I admire Lexus for this decision. Sometimes you choose to lose a battle in order to win a war.
As for the 450h vs 460 - that one has me curious. Depending upon the electric motors used, it is quite conceivable that the 450h would be the better performer. Some electric motors generate a tremendous amount of torque. The only contrary issue is the added weight of batteries. So I'm curious as to how Lexus sees these 2 cars on their roadmap. Maybe they will both have close performance but the 450h will have the added fuel economy.
I'm glad you mentioned the equivalent slalom performance. I have mentioned this in a few other posts but it didn't get much traction. With a stiffer suspension and active rear-steering you might think that the slalom numbers would be better than the GS. So the GS delivers a more luxurious ride yet still actually handles quite well.
With all of this said - as I have said in other posts - I like both cars. Infiniti has done a real nice job on the M. I happen to like the GS better and that is why I bought one. But the M would probably be my choice if the GS weren't available. The RL is nice too. There are slight design trade-offs between these cars. IMO, they are all "Performance-Luxury". I can see why someone would choose the M if that extra bit of performance is what they wanted. I was willing to trade a few ticks of the clock for what I perceived to be more luxury and refinement.
Indeed ... the new 3L and 3.5 GR engines produce a lot of HP/L. I am guessing though that the 4.6L V8 may have more Torque than HP, which is the opposite of what the GR engines have, save for the 4L 1GR tuned for more Torque. If we assume this ... then it's not that unreasonable to see 360 - 370HP, and 380 - 390 lb-ft of Torque from this new engine.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
04-04-05, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
imo, a firmer ride and better handling is what is expected and appreciated by a "luxury sports sedan" buyer... Of course, not everyone will want that in their "sports" sedan, but alot do... BMW and Mercedes still lead this class because of their cars handling characteristics, and well, because they are BMW and Mercedes.. I don't feel that Lexus will be able to take away sales from them with the new GS as it is... Because it doesn't possess that "aggressiveness" commonly associated with a "sports" sedan.. No doubt, the GS is sportier than an LS, for example... but as far as Lexus taking over the market or a big chunk away from BMW and MB, i don't think this is the answer... With the M, i think Infiniti is more likely to take away from potential BMW 5 series sales, simply based on it's handling and driving characteristics.. I guess it really depends on who's buying these cars and what they are looking for in this class..
I think the GS achieves a nice balance of "sport' and "luxury" .... slightly being more luxury because of the direction Lexus takes to building their cars. BMWs are on the sporty side of sport luxury, and MB is similar to Lexus with respect to this balance, unless you count the AMG cars.
Lexus is not aiming at sales that much anymore ... remember Lexus does not want to surpass 300,000 units annually, so they can maintain the prestige and reputation of Lexus. This is why Lexus is moving upscale with higher quality, better materials, more luxury features, more performance, and more emphasis on design .... the L-Finesse theme, which will give Lexus cars thier own unique style and look, while still keeping a family resemblance.
04-04-05, 11:11 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Indeed ... the new 3L and 3.5 GR engines produce a lot of HP/L. I am guessing though that the 4.6L V8 may have more Torque than HP, which is the opposite of what the GR engines have, save for the 4L 1GR tuned for more Torque. If we assume this ... then it's not that unreasonable to see 360 - 370HP, and 380 - 390 lb-ft of Torque from this new engine.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
[COLOR=Blue]Nissan CEO cool on hybrids, sees oil price falling
By Chang-Ran Kim, Asia auto correspondent
TOKYO, Sept 30 (Reuters) - The head of Nissan Motor Co. said he remained unconvinced that hybrid-engine cars were a sound short-term business proposition, adding he believed oil prices would fall from the current historically high levels.
"There is some market demand (for gasoline-electric hybrids)," Chief Executive Carlos Ghosn told a news conference at the unveiling of the new Tiida compact car in Tokyo on Thursday.
"We will come out with a hybrid car in 2006 in the United States as planned, but only because stricter regulations in California will make it a necessity," he said.
Japan's second-biggest auto maker, owned 44.4 percent by France's Renault SA , has an agreement with Toyota Motor Corp. to buy its rival's hybrid technology, having opted to forego development on its own to save money.
Ghosn has repeatedly said that while car makers may claim they are now making money on hybrids, margins on the fuel-sipping vehicles were still much lower than for conventional internal combustion engine cars, equating to a loss of potential profits.
Ghosn, famous for his profit-centred strategy, added that while Toyota's new Prius hybrid car was flying out of U.S. showrooms, its sales were still a drop in the bucket for a 16.9 million-unit-a-year market.
With supply falling chronically short of demand, Toyota now sells less than 5,000 Priuses a month in the United States. But it plans to raise output capacity by half to 180,000 units a year in 2005 -- much of that bound for the United States.
"NO REASON" FOR $50 OIL PRICE
While record-high oil quotes are making hybrid vehicles a more attractive proposition for customers, Ghosn said he expected the U.S. benchmark crude price to fall from the current $50 a barrel level.
"I personally don't think it's going to stay there. I've spoken to many people in the industry ... and there is no physical reason for prices to stay there," he said.
For now, Nissan is aiming to lure environmentally conscious drivers in Japan with fuel-efficient, pure gasoline compact cars such as the Tiida model which goes on sale in Japan on Thursday.
[/COLOR
I think right here, it shows the fundamental difference between the 2 companies. Nissan, lets not forget was losing billions only 5 years ago. The turnaround is impressive but what is more impressive is Toyota being not just a juggernaut but they are truly concerned with quality and the environment (while raking in tons of profits). Oil, dear Ghosen, is way over $50 a barrel already.
The biggest reason for the M45s jump in power is aggresive gearing. The RPM at 60mph is 2300, that is very high for a luxury car. The car has 335hp to the Q45s 340. It ain't weight, the GS weighs 3750 to the M45s huge 4000 lbs weight, as much as a LS 430!
Which shows another difference in direction. Lexus is as concerned with weight as aerodynamics. Low weight means better gas mileage and is always the preference to a heavier car.
Both the M and GS, (even when the GS 460 comes) still lack a manual, so to me its almost a moot point. If you were as sporty as you say, the 545 manual is pretty much the only choice in this class and size vehicle.
04-04-05, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
BMW and Mercedes still leading in this class has A LOT to do with their reputations. It has less and less to do with the cars themselves. MB for example recently had a huge recall on 1.3 Million cars. BMWs still have electrical issues.
I think the GS achieves a nice balance of "sport' and "luxury" .... slightly being more luxury because of the direction Lexus takes to building their cars. BMWs are on the sporty side of sport luxury, and MB is similar to Lexus with respect to this balance, unless you count the AMG cars.
Lexus is not aiming at sales that much anymore ... remember Lexus does not want to surpass 300,000 units annually, so they can maintain the prestige and reputation of Lexus. This is why Lexus is moving upscale with higher quality, better materials, more luxury features, more performance, and more emphasis on design .... the L-Finesse theme, which will give Lexus cars thier own unique style and look, while still keeping a family resemblance.
I think the GS achieves a nice balance of "sport' and "luxury" .... slightly being more luxury because of the direction Lexus takes to building their cars. BMWs are on the sporty side of sport luxury, and MB is similar to Lexus with respect to this balance, unless you count the AMG cars.
Lexus is not aiming at sales that much anymore ... remember Lexus does not want to surpass 300,000 units annually, so they can maintain the prestige and reputation of Lexus. This is why Lexus is moving upscale with higher quality, better materials, more luxury features, more performance, and more emphasis on design .... the L-Finesse theme, which will give Lexus cars thier own unique style and look, while still keeping a family resemblance.
04-04-05, 11:24 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
Agreed.. and you're right, alot of MB and BMW success does have to do with reputation... But because Lexus directly seems to be in competition with MB, and Infiniti directly seems to be in competition with BMW, all reputation aside, the Infiniti M seems to capture the BMW 5 series more so than the GS seems to capture the E-Class, imo... A big reason why people buy BMW, besides the reputation, is because of its driving characteristics and superb handling.. I think if the GS offered a more performance-oriented version of the GS in terms of what the E Class offers (E55), that things would change dramatically.. perhaps they will with the GS450h or one would hope, the GS560h...
The issue that LEXUS does have to an extent, they have done luxury so well, that any sport offering they make, will always be overshadowed by the luxury aspect. But Lexus has done sport with success, the IS and GS prove that. And do not forget TEAM LEXUS, who races IS 300s and GS 400s and has won multiple races (Where is Infiniti's team?).
04-04-05, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Indeed ... the new 3L and 3.5 GR engines produce a lot of HP/L. I am guessing though that the 4.6L V8 may have more Torque than HP, which is the opposite of what the GR engines have, save for the 4L 1GR tuned for more Torque. If we assume this ... then it's not that unreasonable to see 360 - 370HP, and 380 - 390 lb-ft of Torque from this new engine.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
04-05-05, 06:53 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Most BMW drivers don't drive the cars to explore the limits of them, they like to know its there though.
04-05-05, 09:50 AM
#60
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Indeed ... the new 3L and 3.5 GR engines produce a lot of HP/L. I am guessing though that the 4.6L V8 may have more Torque than HP, which is the opposite of what the GR engines have, save for the 4L 1GR tuned for more Torque. If we assume this ... then it's not that unreasonable to see 360 - 370HP, and 380 - 390 lb-ft of Torque from this new engine.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
the 4.5 VK compared with the 4.3L UZ right now .... the 4.5 has a more aggressive intake, and it's not ULEV. It also gets lower fuel economy. Like you said, I believe Lexus chose to keep the engine the same to retain it's amazing silky smooth feel, and super quiet operation. The other thing is that, like I said, if the 4.6 was just a displacement boost, then the new GS and LS would have had both engines by now. But seeing as the 4.6 has been taked about for a long time now, I'm predicting to see a big power jump, on top of a fuel economy jump. The UZ engine series is dated, and I would be thrilled to see a new V8 engine family.
Plus, I don't think Nissan yet has experience for Direct Injection. Toyota has lots of experience with Direct Injection, thanks to their HIno division, who have been producing Diesel engines for decades now. Hino trucks are some of the best commercial trucks worldwide. Toyota knows how to make engines with super-strong internals, and Nissan does too. Thing is, Nissan's VQ has problems with Forced Induction ... many tuners say the internals don't hold up. Toyota also has experience now with their own Diesel engines, like the new 2.2L engine in the new IS. This 2.2 makes incredible power, is very clean, and has great fuel economy.
I think that seeing as the 450h is a slighty lower number than the 460, they should perform similarly, but I think the 460 should be a bit faster ... also keeping in mind the added weight the 450h will carry.
I was not aware that the Infiniti 4.5L V8 isn't ULEV! And that they don't have experience with Direct Injection. So they have to use displacement to achieve their target market niche "Designed to Outperform". BMW has had some reliability/longevity issues with the M3 and M5 motors because they push the envelope so hard with what the engine can do. I'm glad the Lexus seems to hold back a little because that last few % creates a big trade-off between performance and longevity.
What you say about the 450h and 460 makes complete sense to me. I understand that the 450h designator is meant to convey that the car performs as if the engine were a 4.5L V8. If the hybrid were to be the ultimate performer then Lexus would have named it with a higher number designator. I'm still curious about how Lexus will market these 2 models and what the real differentiation will be. I suspect that the real marketing benefit to Lexus goes far beyond just offering model choice. It goes to brand awareness, technology leadership, environmental image, etc, etc.