Motor Trend GS430/M45 Face Off
03-31-05, 08:18 AM
#1
Speaks French in Russian
Thread Starter
Motor Trend GS430/M45 Face Off
http://www.ideashift.com/transfer/M/...GAIN/proof.pdf
Adobe Acrobat Reader Format. MIght have to enlarge because its a little to small.
Rumor has it that the editor for CAR magazine is now working for MotorTrend. Hopefully MotorTrend can improve their stories in the near future.
Adobe Acrobat Reader Format. MIght have to enlarge because its a little to small.
Rumor has it that the editor for CAR magazine is now working for MotorTrend. Hopefully MotorTrend can improve their stories in the near future.
03-31-05, 09:07 AM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Wow, thanks for scanning and sharing!
Very interesting comparison conclusions. Interesting the loaded GS430 is $13K more than the base M45
.
I did get a chuckle out of the part that said:
I concluded from it and the pics that the GS is better looking in and out after all, but the M is faster, more fun, and less expensive. But Lexus is going after the 545i more than the M I'd guess, and both the GS and 545i have tremendous amounts of electronic 'assistance'.
Very interesting comparison conclusions. Interesting the loaded GS430 is $13K more than the base M45
.I did get a chuckle out of the part that said:
"The degree of electronic meddling in the GS 430 is astonishing. It's the electronic equivalent of making love while wearing mittens; the end result is the same, but you have less fun getting there, although that's what some buyers like." 
03-31-05, 10:18 AM
#4
Driver
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by spwolf
Yah, if you go around 12" rubber cones few times per day, make sure you dont buy an GS!
03-31-05, 10:36 AM
#5
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
I concluded from it and the pics that the GS is better looking in and out after all, but the M is faster, more fun, and less expensive.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
But Lexus is going after the 545i more than the M I'd guess . . .
03-31-05, 10:50 AM
#6
Forum Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by marcpitch
Another brilliant comment genius. They were going to test the handling by mimicking your commute to work each day, but thought cones might be more purposeful.
Marc, knock it off or leave the 3rd gen GS forum. Granted the post you responded to was brief and flippant, but you don't need to escalate and insult.
If you have questions about what response would be appropriate, PM me and we'll work it out.
Trending Topics
03-31-05, 02:45 PM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A better place
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent Review. They discuss the cars for exactly what they are. No bias, no beating around the bush. I am happy they discussed why the GS is better than the M, and discussed specifically that the Lexus brand is diverging from the approach of Infiniti. They talked about the attention to detail on the GS, which is what Lexus is all about.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless 
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part ... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part
... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 03-31-05 at 02:50 PM.
03-31-05, 03:30 PM
#9
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AR
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that the M45 was the clear victor.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
03-31-05, 04:13 PM
#10
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DrewSRX
I think that the M45 was the clear victor.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
From the article:
GS positives:
Interior design/ergonomics, materials, finish
Resale
GS negatives:
Intrusive VDIM
Poor brake feel
Cramped interior
M positives:
Engine, performance, handling, ride,
Roomier interior
M negatives:
...
As already quoted, my favorite portion of the article that pretty much sums it all up:
"It's the electronic equivalent of making love while wearing mittens; the end result is the same, but you have less fun getting there, although that's what some buyers like."
03-31-05, 04:27 PM
#11
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Excellent Review. They discuss the cars for exactly what they are. No bias, no beating around the bush. I am happy they discussed why the GS is better than the M, and discussed specifically that the Lexus brand is diverging from the approach of Infiniti. They talked about the attention to detail on the GS, which is what Lexus is all about.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part ... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.
It was also refreshing to hear them praise the GS design, and favour it over the M.
Several times, they mentioned that the GS has hidden potential just waiting to be unlocked, but VDIM keeps the GS on a leash, so to speak. This is what I've been saying all along ... that the GS has the ability to perform on relatively the same level as the M45, but Lexus kept the GS performance on a leash in return for better safety, and weather performance. Not one review has mentioned weather performance, and the GS certainly beats the M45 in bad weather. With that in mind, the GS also beats the M in safety; I don' think anyone will want to argue against that. As I have said before, if Lexus offers the ability to tone down VDIM, or to turn it off, the GS will show it's true potential. I'm also curious if they tested the GS in ECT Power and Sport Mode, because those 0 - 60 numbers seem sketchy to me.
With the M, I'm surprised they didn't say anything about the red coloured gauges, instead saying they looked "rich". I guess it's subjective. They said that with the M, you feel more of the road, and it feels more like a "conventional" car. Rightly so ... the way I look at it ... the M is almost a muscle car ... not saying it doesn't have luxury ... but it leans more on the side of sports. The GS is as luxury as you can really get in the segment, and it is just aimed to be smooth, quiet, yet powerful. Lexus cars feel and drive in a unique fashion, in that, you almost forget you're driving a car. I am in a minority here, and I am very young, but that's what I love about Lexus. I love the fact that the cars are almost "dream like", almost spooky in their unmatched comfort, reliability, and isolation.
The M45 is a more traditional powerful sedan, that appeals to many power hungry enthusiasts, and is a "drivers" car so to speak ... ironic in that you won't be able to experience the car unless you take it out on the track. The GS is more mysterious, pushes Lexus qualities to new levels, has tiny details and little things which always take some time to discover. The GS embodies a very deep soulful japanese essence to it, which most people seem to not appreciate or understand.
The M can win all the comparisons it wants ... but it will never have the essence, the piece of mind that the Lexus brings. To me, that is priceless
and I don't want to beat a dead horse ... but Lexus is stirring things up by offering more new features and options than before on their cars ... next year we get the GS460 and 450h ... both of which should outperform the M ....and we will probably get more options on the GS.
EDIT: I forgot the most important part
... they seem to have not really chosen a victor, rather they have shown the M is a better drivers car, while the GS is for those who want the luxury, smoothness, being pampered, and the attention to detail ... a sports sedan that provides a surreal experience in other words. Different strokes for different folks ... although in the same market, the GS and M appeal to different people, and I am glad that Motor Trend did not declare an outright victor.We all already new from before that most mags simply wont like VDIM - they complain like it is end of the world, yet M45 Sport slalom time is barely any better - with bigger and more aggressive tires. M45 has a lot more power, yet it is barely faster - 0.1 or 0.2 secs on average...
Its kind of funny, i was just reading CD's comparo between CTS-GTO.-300SRT8, and the differences in performance were quite large between cars, yet they downplayed it as if it was personal prefference. I guess they all hate VDIM sooo much.
03-31-05, 04:47 PM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A better place
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DrewSRX
I think that the M45 was the clear victor.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
They didn't have a single bad thing to say about it.
They had a few bad things to say about the GS430 and it got beat by the M45 in every single performance measure. That sounds like a winner to me.
OVERALL ... the M IS NOT the clear victor. Please people, try and understand that.
Even in the article itself, it did not clearly lay the M as the victor ... so stop making assumptions. They just said that the GS is a great car for some people, while the M is great as a "driver's car".
EDIT: yes ... they did have some bad things to say about the M ... namely getting used to the dash ... and the lack of elegance in the car's design.
03-31-05, 04:52 PM
#13
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: A better place
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by spwolf
pretty much on spot, although they did like M a lot better...
We all already new from before that most mags simply wont like VDIM - they complain like it is end of the world, yet M45 Sport slalom time is barely any better - with bigger and more aggressive tires. M45 has a lot more power, yet it is barely faster - 0.1 or 0.2 secs on average...
Its kind of funny, i was just reading CD's comparo between CTS-GTO.-300SRT8, and the differences in performance were quite large between cars, yet they downplayed it as if it was personal prefference. I guess they all hate VDIM sooo much.
We all already new from before that most mags simply wont like VDIM - they complain like it is end of the world, yet M45 Sport slalom time is barely any better - with bigger and more aggressive tires. M45 has a lot more power, yet it is barely faster - 0.1 or 0.2 secs on average...
Its kind of funny, i was just reading CD's comparo between CTS-GTO.-300SRT8, and the differences in performance were quite large between cars, yet they downplayed it as if it was personal prefference. I guess they all hate VDIM sooo much.
With that said, MT does a better job than just about any other car mag.
03-31-05, 05:05 PM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
Some stats from May 06 and November 97 issues of Motor Trend. Not much improvements in the area of acceleration, braking and corning for both the new M45 & GS430.
06 M45 06 GS430 98 GS400
0-30 2.0 2.2 2.1
0-40 3.1 3.3 3.1
0-50 4.3 4.5 4.3
0-60 5.7 6.0 5.7
0-70 7.5 7.9 7.6
0-80 9.6 10.1 9.8
0-90 11.8 12.8 12.1
0-100 15.1 16.5 15.1
1/4 M 14.1/98.8 14.5/95.5 14.3/98.2
Braking
60-0 114 ft 129 ft 114 ft
G 0.86 G 0.83 G 0.87G
600-ft
slalom 63.8 63.6 66
06 M45 06 GS430 98 GS400
0-30 2.0 2.2 2.1
0-40 3.1 3.3 3.1
0-50 4.3 4.5 4.3
0-60 5.7 6.0 5.7
0-70 7.5 7.9 7.6
0-80 9.6 10.1 9.8
0-90 11.8 12.8 12.1
0-100 15.1 16.5 15.1
1/4 M 14.1/98.8 14.5/95.5 14.3/98.2
Braking
60-0 114 ft 129 ft 114 ft
G 0.86 G 0.83 G 0.87G
600-ft
slalom 63.8 63.6 66
03-31-05, 05:47 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by gs400998
Some stats from May 06 and November 97 issues of Motor Trend. Not much improvements in the area of acceleration, braking and corning for both the new M45 & GS430.
06 M45 06 GS430 98 GS400
0-30 2.0 2.2 2.1
0-40 3.1 3.3 3.1
0-50 4.3 4.5 4.3
0-60 5.7 6.0 5.7
0-70 7.5 7.9 7.6
0-80 9.6 10.1 9.8
0-90 11.8 12.8 12.1
0-100 15.1 16.5 15.1
1/4 M 14.1/98.8 14.5/95.5 14.3/98.2
Braking
60-0 114 ft 129 ft 114 ft
G 0.86 G 0.83 G 0.87G
600-ft
slalom 63.8 63.6 66
06 M45 06 GS430 98 GS400
0-30 2.0 2.2 2.1
0-40 3.1 3.3 3.1
0-50 4.3 4.5 4.3
0-60 5.7 6.0 5.7
0-70 7.5 7.9 7.6
0-80 9.6 10.1 9.8
0-90 11.8 12.8 12.1
0-100 15.1 16.5 15.1
1/4 M 14.1/98.8 14.5/95.5 14.3/98.2
Braking
60-0 114 ft 129 ft 114 ft
G 0.86 G 0.83 G 0.87G
600-ft
slalom 63.8 63.6 66
What a real shame... According to the stats, the 3GS is slower in 0-xx acceleration and quarter-mile runs, takes a longer distance to stop (not to mention the "grabby" brakes) and skids more easily than the 7-year-old 2GS. The only saving grace is the slalom times which is most likely a result of the VDIM intervention. In other words, performance-wise, the 3GS is a step backwards. As another 3GS review (forgot which one) said, a car should be good before any electronics, which can be said for the 5-series but not for the 3GS.
Oh well, let's just hope the GS460/GS350 will remedy all such complaints.
