Negative caster after alignment?
05-04-15, 05:38 PM
#32
I don't do alignments but I do sell tires. I deal with this all the time. I can't count how many times a mechanic says that the alignment is fine and gives a report similar to yours. Then in 5-10k miles when the tires are wearing bad they blame it on something else. The specs are in red for a reason. I would find another shop and find out what needs to be replaced or adjusted to get everything in the green.
05-04-15, 07:50 PM
#33
hmm. seems like you definitely have some damage. but it doesnt look like its big enough to have a bent frame or something crazy. since cars usually collapse for impact absorbtion i'd start with the lca's. then the cross member. compare the lcas and you should be able to tell whats goin on.
this might be frustrating for you since it doesnt seem like you have a lot of experience working on cars. but you'll have to break out the measuring tape and make some comparisons.
this might be frustrating for you since it doesnt seem like you have a lot of experience working on cars. but you'll have to break out the measuring tape and make some comparisons.
05-05-15, 06:57 AM
#34
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Thread Starter
I don't do alignments but I do sell tires. I deal with this all the time. I can't count how many times a mechanic says that the alignment is fine and gives a report similar to yours. Then in 5-10k miles when the tires are wearing bad they blame it on something else. The specs are in red for a reason. I would find another shop and find out what needs to be replaced or adjusted to get everything in the green.
05-05-15, 07:49 AM
#35
Pole Position
Thread Starter
coinsidentally the rear driver wheel that has negative camber is the one that had the bad wheel bearing that was just changed. Not sure if that coinsides with why they cant align it. Probably a bad pothole was hit killing the bearing and bending or damaging something. Figuring out WHAT is bent or damaged is the problem. Does negative camber on one wheel cause pulling or jus tire wear? I am thinking of getting a new camber bolt and going to the better alignment shop. What kind of labor is it to change the rear camber bolt? Is it a 1,2,3 thing that pops in and out and shouldnt cost extra if doing an alignment or does the knuckle or anything have to be removed?
05-05-15, 03:12 PM
#36
Caster and Camber cause the car to pull, camber will if its not equal on both sides, looking at your paper it seems that it will pull slightly to the right. I would start with getting a new bolt it couldn't cost to much, just make sure its installed correctly.
08-12-15, 11:55 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
so to provide an update I went to the best shop around and they aligned it and said everything was fine and all was green, I forgot to ask for a printout but he said if the alignment was red or not perfect the mechanic would have told him, just how he told him he couldn't align the car because my tie rods were loose the first time. He said the mechanic spent over an hour doing it so it took him a while so it was way out of adjustment, who knows what he did, but the car seems fine now, though I don't have the printout it doesn't feel like its pulling.
08-12-15, 01:41 PM
#38
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I work in an alignment shop... He did nothing wrong, adjusting caster is a ***** and takes a bit of extra time. Unless you paid $120ish or more, there's no way you can expect him to do that for you too. The angle of your caster changed as he fixed your camber & toe. Either way it's at the end of the specification so it's not too bad at all. As for that rear camber, you either have some sort of suspension issue or he didn't really try.
08-13-15, 08:36 AM
#39
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Thread Starter
I work in an alignment shop... He did nothing wrong, adjusting caster is a ***** and takes a bit of extra time. Unless you paid $120ish or more, there's no way you can expect him to do that for you too. The angle of your caster changed as he fixed your camber & toe. Either way it's at the end of the specification so it's not too bad at all. As for that rear camber, you either have some sort of suspension issue or he didn't really try.
08-14-15, 11:14 AM
#40
This car has had its issues before hasn't it?
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...ned-right.html
I do my own alignments at home. I don't wear tires out either. If the car tracks straight and isn't wearing the tires, there isn't much better you can do.
My GS was aligned about 80k miles ago and the rear camber couldn't be adjusted on one side. It pulled a tad, he doctored up something else to make it track straight. I just do it myself. My car has 243k miles and tracks fine down the road.
These techs don't get paid that much to work on these old cars, especially when they are up here in the rust belt where things get sooo hard to mess with over rust. If he gets paid per job and has to spend 2-3 hours on it, he is getting paid next to nothing for his time. Be considerate.
If it tracks straight, don't worry about it. If it is wearing tires, worry about it.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...ned-right.html
I do my own alignments at home. I don't wear tires out either. If the car tracks straight and isn't wearing the tires, there isn't much better you can do.
My GS was aligned about 80k miles ago and the rear camber couldn't be adjusted on one side. It pulled a tad, he doctored up something else to make it track straight. I just do it myself. My car has 243k miles and tracks fine down the road.
These techs don't get paid that much to work on these old cars, especially when they are up here in the rust belt where things get sooo hard to mess with over rust. If he gets paid per job and has to spend 2-3 hours on it, he is getting paid next to nothing for his time. Be considerate.
If it tracks straight, don't worry about it. If it is wearing tires, worry about it.
08-14-15, 12:40 PM
#41
Pole Position
Thread Starter
It's weird how at first the caster was under and now it's over. Clearly I have had that issue for a while. Thanks for reminding me lol. The guys get paid cash every week they should still take their time to do each job as best as they can. Regardless I went somewhere else and it drives straight and they didn't report any issues so even if the caster is still off, I barely notice it.
This car has had its issues before hasn't it?
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...ned-right.html
I do my own alignments at home. I don't wear tires out either. If the car tracks straight and isn't wearing the tires, there isn't much better you can do.
My GS was aligned about 80k miles ago and the rear camber couldn't be adjusted on one side. It pulled a tad, he doctored up something else to make it track straight. I just do it myself. My car has 243k miles and tracks fine down the road.
These techs don't get paid that much to work on these old cars, especially when they are up here in the rust belt where things get sooo hard to mess with over rust. If he gets paid per job and has to spend 2-3 hours on it, he is getting paid next to nothing for his time. Be considerate.
If it tracks straight, don't worry about it. If it is wearing tires, worry about it.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...ned-right.html
I do my own alignments at home. I don't wear tires out either. If the car tracks straight and isn't wearing the tires, there isn't much better you can do.
My GS was aligned about 80k miles ago and the rear camber couldn't be adjusted on one side. It pulled a tad, he doctored up something else to make it track straight. I just do it myself. My car has 243k miles and tracks fine down the road.
These techs don't get paid that much to work on these old cars, especially when they are up here in the rust belt where things get sooo hard to mess with over rust. If he gets paid per job and has to spend 2-3 hours on it, he is getting paid next to nothing for his time. Be considerate.
If it tracks straight, don't worry about it. If it is wearing tires, worry about it.
08-14-15, 01:16 PM
#42
(for you alignment techs, this is trying to be simple, chime in if you can help me explain it better)
Caster is camber gain as you turn the wheel. If it is off a tad on one side you likely will never ever know, and a good alignment tech can compensate on the other side so you never will.
Old cars with manual steering actually had NEGATIVE caster, it was crap for steering wheel returnability, but made it much easier to steer. Higher caster makes it harder to steer (but we have power steering, who cares...), and adds camber the more you turn the wheel.
Take a budget GM car and turn the wheels all the way locked, the angle the wheel is at will be about half what your Lexus is, and cars like say an S500 Benz will be even more, like 10 degrees. Looks like based on your alignment, our cars are more like 7. That is still a good number.
So back to your problem, if you are off a small amount, you won't notice it. Just sitting in the car will toss the alignment off some. Some cars, usually imports, require a weight in the driver's seat for alignment. Rarely will a shop even bother. So the alignment will NEVER be spot on spec. And if you are over/under that weight, that tosses it off some. Enough to feel or see or wear tires? No.
A cars alignment is simple (well, not too simple!) geometry. Think basics. Driving down the road the wheels need to be parallel. If they lean (Caster) it will push the car to the side it is leaning (negative camber on right side will push the car to the left), so it will have a "pull" to the left. It is really a push.
If Caster is off like another poster showed, the tires will not be in the same plane as each other, one front or rearward of the other looking through the center of the axle bearing, it is more so that one tire is ROTATED forward or backwards more than the other, caster is the alignment of the line that goes through the upper ball joint to lower, and it inclines backwards (like a caster on an old TV cart, ask your parents.... they will know), that is POSITIVE caster. They offset positive caster a little left to right to compensate for road crown. So on a road that is flat it isn't uncommon to pull a tad one way and on a crowned road, pull a tad the other way.
So a small amount of Caster error in the REAR is likely never to be noticed, and probably not even adjustable by any significant amount without hosing up rear Camber, much more important.
I would never fret rear caster. Front caster is more important. If you are talking a fraction of a degree, worry about it. Basically if the combined values are in spec and the thrust is good, you won't be able to notice anything.
No easy way to seriously explain it, I am sure the alignment techs here could do a 100x better job. I have studied suspension design some. It is complex to design RIGHT. There are a ton more variables to look at. But the ones we can do anything about are what you see on the sheet.
Someone said a body shop can tell you more, I would look at that. They can determine what is off and why. It could be simply a control bushing that isn't the right shape anymore. Or one that was replaced that was bad design.
Look at this to give you some ideas how to see what the car is like. Friend of mine did his car in my driveway last week while I was at work. Its not that hard, it takes time to study it and do it right at home, but completely can be done at home.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis...ring-your-car/
Caster is camber gain as you turn the wheel. If it is off a tad on one side you likely will never ever know, and a good alignment tech can compensate on the other side so you never will.
Old cars with manual steering actually had NEGATIVE caster, it was crap for steering wheel returnability, but made it much easier to steer. Higher caster makes it harder to steer (but we have power steering, who cares...), and adds camber the more you turn the wheel.
Take a budget GM car and turn the wheels all the way locked, the angle the wheel is at will be about half what your Lexus is, and cars like say an S500 Benz will be even more, like 10 degrees. Looks like based on your alignment, our cars are more like 7. That is still a good number.
So back to your problem, if you are off a small amount, you won't notice it. Just sitting in the car will toss the alignment off some. Some cars, usually imports, require a weight in the driver's seat for alignment. Rarely will a shop even bother. So the alignment will NEVER be spot on spec. And if you are over/under that weight, that tosses it off some. Enough to feel or see or wear tires? No.
A cars alignment is simple (well, not too simple!) geometry. Think basics. Driving down the road the wheels need to be parallel. If they lean (Caster) it will push the car to the side it is leaning (negative camber on right side will push the car to the left), so it will have a "pull" to the left. It is really a push.
If Caster is off like another poster showed, the tires will not be in the same plane as each other, one front or rearward of the other looking through the center of the axle bearing, it is more so that one tire is ROTATED forward or backwards more than the other, caster is the alignment of the line that goes through the upper ball joint to lower, and it inclines backwards (like a caster on an old TV cart, ask your parents.... they will know), that is POSITIVE caster. They offset positive caster a little left to right to compensate for road crown. So on a road that is flat it isn't uncommon to pull a tad one way and on a crowned road, pull a tad the other way.
So a small amount of Caster error in the REAR is likely never to be noticed, and probably not even adjustable by any significant amount without hosing up rear Camber, much more important.
I would never fret rear caster. Front caster is more important. If you are talking a fraction of a degree, worry about it. Basically if the combined values are in spec and the thrust is good, you won't be able to notice anything.
No easy way to seriously explain it, I am sure the alignment techs here could do a 100x better job. I have studied suspension design some. It is complex to design RIGHT. There are a ton more variables to look at. But the ones we can do anything about are what you see on the sheet.
Someone said a body shop can tell you more, I would look at that. They can determine what is off and why. It could be simply a control bushing that isn't the right shape anymore. Or one that was replaced that was bad design.
Look at this to give you some ideas how to see what the car is like. Friend of mine did his car in my driveway last week while I was at work. Its not that hard, it takes time to study it and do it right at home, but completely can be done at home.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis...ring-your-car/
It's weird how at first the caster was under and now it's over. Clearly I have had that issue for a while. Thanks for reminding me lol. The guys get paid cash every week they should still take their time to do each job as best as they can. Regardless I went somewhere else and it drives straight and they didn't report any issues so even if the caster is still off, I barely notice it.
Last edited by RamAirRckt; 08-14-15 at 01:20 PM.
08-14-15, 01:29 PM
#43
Pole Position
Thread Starter
That would explain why when the first place tried to fix my caster in the front he killed the front camber just to fix the front caster. Which made it drive even worse. I did notice some slight pulling when turning like the wheel wouldn't center back as fast with the front caster being too high. After the second place did my alignment I don't notice it anymore so this new place must've fixed it somehow or did something to compensate for the front caster. I guess as long as you don't feel any pulling and it tracks straight as the other guy said, then it should be fine
(for you alignment techs, this is trying to be simple, chime in if you can help me explain it better)
Caster is camber gain as you turn the wheel. If it is off a tad on one side you likely will never ever know, and a good alignment tech can compensate on the other side so you never will.
Old cars with manual steering actually had NEGATIVE caster, it was crap for steering wheel returnability, but made it much easier to steer. Higher caster makes it harder to steer (but we have power steering, who cares...), and adds camber the more you turn the wheel.
Take a budget GM car and turn the wheels all the way locked, the angle the wheel is at will be about half what your Lexus is, and cars like say an S500 Benz will be even more, like 10 degrees. Looks like based on your alignment, our cars are more like 7. That is still a good number.
So back to your problem, if you are off a small amount, you won't notice it. Just sitting in the car will toss the alignment off some. Some cars, usually imports, require a weight in the driver's seat for alignment. Rarely will a shop even bother. So the alignment will NEVER be spot on spec. And if you are over/under that weight, that tosses it off some. Enough to feel or see or wear tires? No.
A cars alignment is simple (well, not too simple!) geometry. Think basics. Driving down the road the wheels need to be parallel. If they lean (Caster) it will push the car to the side it is leaning (negative camber on right side will push the car to the left), so it will have a "pull" to the left. It is really a push.
If Caster is off like another poster showed, the tires will not be in the same plane as each other, one front or rearward of the other looking through the center of the axle bearing, it is more so that one tire is ROTATED forward or backwards more than the other, caster is the alignment of the line that goes through the upper ball joint to lower, and it inclines backwards (like a caster on an old TV cart, ask your parents.... they will know), that is POSITIVE caster. They offset positive caster a little left to right to compensate for road crown. So on a road that is flat it isn't uncommon to pull a tad one way and on a crowned road, pull a tad the other way.
So a small amount of Caster error in the REAR is likely never to be noticed, and probably not even adjustable by any significant amount without hosing up rear Camber, much more important.
I would never fret rear caster. Front caster is more important. If you are talking a fraction of a degree, worry about it. Basically if the combined values are in spec and the thrust is good, you won't be able to notice anything.
No easy way to seriously explain it, I am sure the alignment techs here could do a 100x better job. I have studied suspension design some. It is complex to design RIGHT. There are a ton more variables to look at. But the ones we can do anything about are what you see on the sheet.
Someone said a body shop can tell you more, I would look at that. They can determine what is off and why. It could be simply a control bushing that isn't the right shape anymore. Or one that was replaced that was bad design.
Look at this to give you some ideas how to see what the car is like. Friend of mine did his car in my driveway last week while I was at work. Its not that hard, it takes time to study it and do it right at home, but completely can be done at home.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis...ring-your-car/
Caster is camber gain as you turn the wheel. If it is off a tad on one side you likely will never ever know, and a good alignment tech can compensate on the other side so you never will.
Old cars with manual steering actually had NEGATIVE caster, it was crap for steering wheel returnability, but made it much easier to steer. Higher caster makes it harder to steer (but we have power steering, who cares...), and adds camber the more you turn the wheel.
Take a budget GM car and turn the wheels all the way locked, the angle the wheel is at will be about half what your Lexus is, and cars like say an S500 Benz will be even more, like 10 degrees. Looks like based on your alignment, our cars are more like 7. That is still a good number.
So back to your problem, if you are off a small amount, you won't notice it. Just sitting in the car will toss the alignment off some. Some cars, usually imports, require a weight in the driver's seat for alignment. Rarely will a shop even bother. So the alignment will NEVER be spot on spec. And if you are over/under that weight, that tosses it off some. Enough to feel or see or wear tires? No.
A cars alignment is simple (well, not too simple!) geometry. Think basics. Driving down the road the wheels need to be parallel. If they lean (Caster) it will push the car to the side it is leaning (negative camber on right side will push the car to the left), so it will have a "pull" to the left. It is really a push.
If Caster is off like another poster showed, the tires will not be in the same plane as each other, one front or rearward of the other looking through the center of the axle bearing, it is more so that one tire is ROTATED forward or backwards more than the other, caster is the alignment of the line that goes through the upper ball joint to lower, and it inclines backwards (like a caster on an old TV cart, ask your parents.... they will know), that is POSITIVE caster. They offset positive caster a little left to right to compensate for road crown. So on a road that is flat it isn't uncommon to pull a tad one way and on a crowned road, pull a tad the other way.
So a small amount of Caster error in the REAR is likely never to be noticed, and probably not even adjustable by any significant amount without hosing up rear Camber, much more important.
I would never fret rear caster. Front caster is more important. If you are talking a fraction of a degree, worry about it. Basically if the combined values are in spec and the thrust is good, you won't be able to notice anything.
No easy way to seriously explain it, I am sure the alignment techs here could do a 100x better job. I have studied suspension design some. It is complex to design RIGHT. There are a ton more variables to look at. But the ones we can do anything about are what you see on the sheet.
Someone said a body shop can tell you more, I would look at that. They can determine what is off and why. It could be simply a control bushing that isn't the right shape anymore. Or one that was replaced that was bad design.
Look at this to give you some ideas how to see what the car is like. Friend of mine did his car in my driveway last week while I was at work. Its not that hard, it takes time to study it and do it right at home, but completely can be done at home.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis...ring-your-car/
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