SW17LS

Believe it. I just bought a car that needed a bumper repair...and I chose to buy it knowing it did. That was a car I've wanted for many years, why would I feel differently about a more expensive car. My 2011 Jeep had been hail damaged on the lot. That was disclosed to me and discounted, but I still bought it, it had been repaired through PDR and was perfect. When I traded it, it never came up and was not on the carfax.

Here's a question...when you trade in a car do you disclose any body repair or issues with the car to the dealer, or do you wait for them to discover any issues? Don't lie.

This is true, but how does one get to the point where a law gets "interpreted"? You have to sue somebody and wind up in court. Sometimes continuing to appeal. Do you want to do that over a repainted bumper? If you say you do...then you have more free time and energy than I do.

What can I say, I'm a pragmatic guy. You'll never hear me say "its the principle of the thing", I've been a businessman too long to be that naive.

bclexus

Steve, once again - we are talking about you ALREADY having knowledge of your damaged bumper on your new LS and the hail damaged on your Jeep BEFORE you purchase them. The OP only found out about the repainted bumper on his new vehicle AFTER he purchased it. Very different!!!

To answer your question I must once again point out your discrepancy in identifying the difference. We have been talking about buying a brand NEW [expected to be] mint condition vehicle...unless you are told otherwise. Now, to answer your question - when I trade-in or sell a USED vehicle it is in what is referred to as 'As-Is' condition. The buyer's appraiser determines the condition and the value. If I am asked a question about the vehicle I will give them accurate information to the best of my ability, but make no guarantee...because I would be trading or selling the vehicle 'as-is'.

bclexus

Are you suggesting that I am naive?

SW17LS

I understand that...but again...its done. Whats done is done, so what good is it to go back and say "well it should have been this way" when in reality...it wasn't that way. He can rant and rave and demand things that the dealer isn't going to do, or he can be a little wiser for the experience, except a repainted bumper to his satisfaction plus something for his trouble and move on. What other choice does he have? He can get an attorney.

I understand the difference. The issue is that your expectation of what a "mint condition new vehicle" is and what the dealer is required to provide as a "mint condition new vehicle" are not the same. You said it yourself, the dealer must disclose any damage over $1,000. So, a new, untitled car with $999.99 in repaired damage is a "mint condition new vehicle" not requiring disclosure to the buyer in the eyes of KY law. So, you can't get pissed off at the dealer for delivering it as such...because thats the bar set by the state regulating agency. You can "expect that they would have a higher standard" but thats your expectation...not what their requirement is. The dealer doesn't owe you something for not living up to your standards, only for not complying with the legal standard. THATS my point.

No, that wasn't my intention, I apologize if it came across that way. I like you, I would have no reason to say anything like that to you.

bclexus

Steve - there are laws, and then there are standards that a reasonable and logical person can expect. We as consumers have the means to achieve a reasonable outcome through simple discussions and negotiations. And, if one desires he can pursue a different outcome by legally challenging the other party. I'm not suggesting the latter would even be necessary, nor am I suggesting the OP go the legal route.

Have you ever taken any logical reasoning courses or tests (e.g. LSAT)?

SW17LS

But there is no way to enforce "standards that a reasonable and logical person can expect". Thats why we have regulatory bodies that set these benchmarks.

For instance, I think you guys are making way bigger a deal about this than it is, obviously several people disagree. You seem to think I'm an unreasonable and illogical person, and I feel your viewpoint and expectation is unreasonable. Seeing that we're both successful adults the difference lies in our perceptions more than it does anything inherently wrong with either of us. When people disagree we have legal regulations and contractual obligations to look towards to settle our disputes.

If the only acceptable solution to the OP is "I want a new car" thats what its going to take.

Why?

bclexus

The KY statute was approved by the state's legislature not because it should be considered the minimum standard for all, but to force those that don't have any standards to comply with at least a minimum to protect consumers from the worse-of-the-worse offenders. I would like to think that Lexus, being a high-end luxury car maker, would want their customers and potential customers to expect more than the bare minimum when it comes to customer satisfaction and having a top tier rating with when it comes to customers' buying experience.

Why? Because I think your life experiences and employment history probably never dealt with the need to use logical reasoning very much. You seem to be a person that would prefer to let whatever happens, happen...and find a way to be satisfied regardless of the outcome. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think your nature is not to reach a fair conclusion for the sake of harmony.

SW17LS

You might like to think that, but that hasn't been my experience beyond a certain point after 17 years of being a customer of the brand. The issue isn't Lexus, its the dealers. Every dealer is different, and quality varies widely. I haven't found a dealer that would take a hit like this for a customer though.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Okay, so we're going to make this about me and not the issues. A little background. I'm a pretty successful businessman. My the time I was 23 I had started and sold two successful businesses. One of those businesses was consulting with car dealerships helping them develop customer retention programs. I operate two successful businesses now, and I negotiate fairly high value contracts as well as manage millions of dollars worth of real estate assets. I also hold BA's in Psychology and Communication with an emphasis on business negotiation. But you're probably right...I've "never had any life experience or employment history that would teach me how to reason logically".

Its just that I pick my battles, and when I pick a battle I prefer to have a leg to stand on. I'm not going to sink a ton of energy and time into a crusade that I know isn't going to turn out in my favor...and expecting a replacement car for a damaged and poorly repaired bumper discovered 2 weeks after delivery is such a crusade. A positive outcome from a negotiation best achieved when one has an outcome in mind that is rooted in what is realistically achievable. The people that run dealerships have dealt with a LOT of irate customers in their careers. They know the difference between a customer who they can satisfy, and one with unreasonable demands that they can't satisfy. They also know when to cut their losses with a customer. People pay me to negotiate things for them, and I've worked directly with dozens of dealership sales managers, service managers and general managers...but hey...what do I know?

I'm done. Best of luck to the OP. I don't blame you for asking for a replacement car (you never know), but don't draw a line in the sand at that for the only solution you'll accept because its really unlikely.

bclexus

Steve - I am not trying to make this about you. However, I must say that I believe your view is probably totally contrary to how most people think about this issue. I take it that you wouldn't even waste any time or effort making your case. I just find it amusing that you wouldn't at least pursue a better, more positive outcome for yourself (if this situation was yours). I am of the opinion that virtually everyone would be upset to learn they had bought a brand new car and then learned the front bumper had been repainted. Do you take the same lackadaisical approach with your business clients that face various issues where they think they've been treated unfairly or damaged as you do with your own personal issues? If so, then you must have some easygoing, carefree, timid backward-thinking clients is all I've got to say.

What I find confusing is that you said; "I don't blame you for asking for a replacement car (you never know), but don't draw a line in the sand at that for the only solution you'll accept because its really unlikely." If you don't blame him (the OP) for asking, then why would you not ask (if it was your car)? All the dealer can say is either Yes, or No. And, maybe they can negotiate something to better appease the OP. There's no harm in asking! If you don't step-up and ask, and make your case in a courteous, professional and serious way - you surely are not going to receive anything. I take it that you wouldn't even step-up and ask... I find that very indifferent...and certainly not what one would expect from someone with your business experience.

SW17LS

Oh really? Apparently not to these people:

In response to my post:

In fact, if anything I would say the majority of posters share my viewpoint, so I'm not sure that your statement is at all correct.

You're a riot. So...this is after you posted this:

So...apparently you are making it about me and passing judgements now about the way I perform my work. If you don't want to make it about me...stop posting rude personal comments about me! At least I don't have to worry about pulling my punches out of respect for you anymore.

You need to stop putting words in my mouth. No reason not to ask, I asked...there was not another car that met my specifications in the region. What I said all along was you can't demand that and expect that as an outcome...because its almost certainly not going to happen. When you really throw your weight into the negotiation, it should be for something that is more attainable than that. The issue with pressing too hard for something that isn't attainable at the onset is that it gets the dealer's back up and once that happens and they've already written you off...they no longer WANT to help you and it gets much harder to get anything more than what they're legally obligated at a minimum to do.

Like I said, I know a LOT of these people and they are often very high ego, quick to trigger, and often not very bright. You go in there demanding a new car, you won't wind up with the clear bra at the end for example.

I assume from your posts that you likely have some sort of government or middle management type job and have absolutely no concept of how a business is operated. I hope you don't take offense to that, because I'm not trying to make this about you...I'm just going to post a bunch of judgmental belittling things about you...but since I said I don't want to make it about you its okay...right?

bclexus

Steve - Maybe you are right about most people not really caring that they bought a brand new car that already had a repainted bumper. I'll let others weigh-in on that if they care to do so.

You assume wrong Steve, very wrong!

SW17LS

Putting words in my mouth again. I'm sure anybody would care, I'm saying most people would not expect a car they've already taken delivery of to be replaced with a new car.

bclexus

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I have never said that I would expect a new car and nothing else, but I would certainly ask for it and maybe work out something that I would be satisfied with. And, who knows - maybe the dealership has a lot of integrity and will replace the car. If you don't ask, then you'll never receive.

Tom59

I'm lost on the panels being out of whack. That's not a little transport boo-boo. I'm sure corporate will get you a solution. Maybe Lexus will replace the car -
Seems like the right thing to do if panels are not perfectly aligned.

rjm

Why does a simple thread dealing with someone's problem or disappointment with a car and how to deal with it always end up in a contest of egos? It sounds like a high school debate gone bad.