GregCanada

So, i've taken in the GS for maintenance service and received a 2012 ES350 as a loaner car. I wanted to check it out because the GF was really into the ES when we were looking at cars. I refused because i did not see a single one being driven by a person under 60. (No offence meant to the Great Generation, just an observation). Anyways, after seeing the IS was too small, we settled on the GS. After driving the ES, i'm glad we chose the GS.

The ES is wallowing, spins the tires everywhere, pushes through corners, interior ergonomics are terrible (though i know they have been updated significantly in 2013). It basically feels like a Camry with leather seats, woodgrain trim and some automatic electronics. I can't wait to pick up the GS this evening. It's planted, grips like a ****, predictable when the back end comes out, takes corners like a champ, holds you in your seat, ergonomics are great, etc. The ES is a bit quieter on the freeway, and cruises alright. I can see why the older crowd likes it. But if you enjoy performance, tech, feel, refinement, looks, etc. you will hate the ES. The GS is a drivers car.

Hope this can help someone looking for some basic differences when shopping for a new ride.

Have any of you guys tried both? Thoughts?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

one is fwd (and is based on camry / avalon), one is rwd. that says a lot

GregCanada

Well, AWD for me.
I know you say FWD, but i like my buddies 2006 Acura TL. It's not really comparable to an ES though, quite a bit sportier. I think the interior on the TL is quite a bit nicer than the ES as well.

praetor

I came from a Camry with leather seats to a GS350FSport AWD. Yes they are different as they are different cars with about a $15K+ price difference. Is the GS350 better? Well yes. Is it $15K+ better? Depends on who you ask.

The GS has the better seats, handling and overall performance. The interior is much nicer and OMG that 12.1" screen. Obviously we like our GS but to some it's still just a pricey Toyota.

praetor

I also want to add how nimble the GS is for being a big 4,000+lb car. Even after a year, I still find myself surprised by how easily I can toss it around corners. I still get nervous negotiating a curve but once I am in the turn, the GS takes all that nervousness away with it's handling abilities.

GregCanada

Similarly equipped, the price difference is about $10k used (around here), take away 3000 for the AWD premium, and the GS is $7k more (comparatively). I would say it is 110% worth the difference.

The 2013 ES does look much nicer, and is based on the Avalon. Hopefully I get one of those to try next time for a true comparison.

Either way, i could never see myself driving an ES. I agree, some may say it's a pricey toyota, but the only Toyota's you can really compare to, are an GT86, a supra, or an 80's celica / AE86. I find it way more fun to drive than my 90' celica GT4. Which is really the only real comparable AWD toyota available (and it's not really comparable at all).

I feel similar about corners, i thought i used to take them quickly in older cars, they cant even keep up to this thing...

SW17LS

I came from a 2010 ES350 which is identical to the 2012 ES loaner you had (I'm surprised your dealer still has 2012 model loaner cars). It was my second ES, I had a 2003 ES before it. Bought my first ES when I was 22 so not everybody is over 60.

Certainly the GS is a much better car, but I'm not quite as down on the ol' ES as you are. I thoroughly enjoyed my 2010 ES, it looked great, drove great, never had any issues with the ergonomics inside. The GS is a much more refined, solid and capable car (the more sophisticated suspension alone has a lot to do with that)...but the ES is a great car when you're not accustomed to driving the better Lexus models. When you compare it back to back with a superior car...obviously its inferior. You'd feel the same way if you had a C Class or 3 Series loaner coming from an E or S Class or a 5 or 7 series BMW.

If you were accustomed to driving an LS...dare I say you may feel similarly about the GS.

My only question is your comment about the ES being quieter on the highway, what model GS do you have? What tires? I found my GS is quieter than my ES was on the highway but I have a Luxury with AVS, double paned glass and Michelins. My ES also had Michelin Primacys which are very quiet.

The 2013 ES is bigger, and the interior is well laid out and looks better but material quality is an issue (not as good as the 2010-2012 car), and some people say it doesn't ride as well.

My GS costs me $70 a month more than my ES did. Certainly its well worth $70 a month. But...if I were buying...its $20,000 more expensive...$20,000 is a lot of money

sick21

I've never been in an ES although I can only recall seeing older crowd driving them. And all I can say is that I don't feel my GS F Sport is any quieter than my VW CC was. And it's hardly quieter than my cousins Optima SX-L. It would be an understatement to say that I am less than pleased with how quiet my GS is but maybe it's the tires. Idk.

tompass

Interesting to note that I had my '13 GS 350 AWD in for 30K service today, $400, and they gave me an ES350. Absolutely hated it. Steering very very vague, no power, interior not so great, seats not comfortable, handling or lack thereof, etc. Felt like driving an old Buick.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Not just that but one is last generation and other is new generation. This isn't even apples and oranges, more like veggie and meatlover

SW17LS

1. Its an F Sport with 19" wheels. Always going to generate more noise than 18s.
2. I would imagine you have the Dunlops. They're loud.

I am very picky about sound levels in a vehicle, and I've owned some very quiet cars (two ESs, two LSs, two Jeep Grand Cherokees which are very quiet) and I find my GS as quiet as the ESs and the Jeeps, but not quite as quiet as the LSs. The GS generates a good bit more engine noise at throttle but thats by design.

There is some road surface noise on coarser pavement, but thats a Lexus trait...even our LSs had that.

Tires are VERY important on a Lexus for that reason. It will feel like an entirely different car on different tires...and as tires wear they get louder.

Thats what its supposed to feel like. Remember, they sell like 4 times as many ESs and they do GSs, so the car appeals to a lot of people.

ItzFilyO

I've sat in the new ES and it doesn't look and feel like a Camry or Avalon anymore, it feels like what a Lexus should be now. This is a good thing cause the previous gen was so plain and boring, like my old Camry and I hate it when people say you're just buying an overpriced Camry. Some even say a GS is a Camry.

Now that they've changed the design completely, I can say to these clueless people.. Have u sat in a Lexus before? Don't say anything bad if u've never been in one. Everyone that has seen my car in person is surprised by the design and quality.

I know the ES is built for comfort but it's still quick, and that 2GR can move!

SW17LS

The new ES looks the part inside, but material quality is IMHO quite poor. Hard plastics, flat door panels...not a fan...should be better.

dseag2

Agreed. I had a '13 ES as a loaner. In addition, the seats are flat and don't have enough thigh support and it still wallows around curves in comparison to the GS.

BTW, I bought my GS, and at $60k it is maybe $12k more than a similarly-equipped ES (leather, ML, etc.), and to me that $12k is absolutely worth it.

GregCanada

My dealer actually has an Enterprise inside, so it does not give out loaners itself. I believe they have newer ES's, just none available when i was there.

Ergonomics - the buttons overhead, I literally could not see (had to crouch). The windshield felt too short (vertical wise) (I am 6'4" with a long torso). All the switches were not easy to figure out (similar to the GS, i am used to my 4runner's / Tacoma's) - quality of switches is the same as 4runners / tacoma's, not lexus quality (still better than domestics mind you). Mirror buttons were oddly located on the dash. Lots and lots of hard plastics (my 89' 4runner feels more luxurious, wing windows et al).

Boss has an '11 C350 - it feels slightly better than the ES. A good friend has an 09' Genesis 3.8, and it feels cheap to me, nicer than the ES, but not nearly as polished as the GS. I let him take the GS for a ride, his first comments were "my Genesis feels tired."
The other boss has a '14 C63AMG, feels a bit nicer inside than the GS. It's probably more around an f-sport / lux feel. The car itself is ridiculous, not sure if the GS-F will even match it pound for pound, more of an IS-F fighter.
Co-worker's '11 335D feels nice inside, but it's bland, and just way too small for me.

The ES sound wise, was actually, equal on the highway. I didn't take it very far (just drove the GS home and compared). My GS has Michelin MXM4's. It's a base model with AWD / winter package. Most sound comes from A - wind noise, B - tires. Wind noise, from the ceiling and windows, is the most annoying. I just turn the radio up. I wish i had the double pane glass. Noise from the tires is understandable. My 4r has BFG M/T's, so the MXM4's don't bother me too much.

I'm sure an LS will be quieter, and more torque than the GS, and with more (useless for the most part) creature comforts, i don't believe the gap between ES and GS, vs. GS and LS is nearly as large. I'd enjoy them both, for different purposes.

That's exactly what I felt. Or maybe an Olds'. I agree with everything other than I feel it had adequate power.

I expect it to be better than my tacoma and it is not. Equal at best.