Back to Lexus from BMW...Any regrets?
12-11-14, 12:25 PM
#91
Lexus Champion
I think the jury is still out on that. The car only has 30 more hp than the non hybrid and it weighs over 200 lbs more. It also has a smaller trunk. I think any performance gains would be very minimal. I find it hard to believe it feels like a bigger engine. I understand torque as much as anyone, but according to the Lexus website it "rockets" from 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.....exactly 1/10 of a second faster than the non-hybrid.
12-11-14, 02:33 PM
#92
I have a 6 series and the GS. BMW and Lexus make different types of cars for different expectations. I find it very tough to compare the two. Lexus is all about comfort and the driving experience. BMW is more catered to performance.
12-11-14, 07:34 PM
#93
Pole Position
Looking at just the stated hp numbers on the GS450h doesn't give the full picture about how its powertrain delivers that power.
The electric part of that hybrid powertrain delivers that power and torque instantaneously at 0 revs. It makes overtaking and moving off feel like the GS450h has at least 50 more hp than it really has.
Talk to past/present GS450h owners to understand the joys of always having instant torque at the tap of your foot.
May not be directly relevant but watch this video of the previous generation GS450h spank a 335i from 0-260 km/h ( 160mph) :
The electric part of that hybrid powertrain delivers that power and torque instantaneously at 0 revs. It makes overtaking and moving off feel like the GS450h has at least 50 more hp than it really has.
Talk to past/present GS450h owners to understand the joys of always having instant torque at the tap of your foot.
May not be directly relevant but watch this video of the previous generation GS450h spank a 335i from 0-260 km/h ( 160mph) :
Last edited by natnut; 12-11-14 at 07:38 PM.
12-11-14, 08:24 PM
#94
The GS450h's linear performance is unquestionable.
The old 3GS450h [designed for performance] is even quicker than the new 4GS450h [designed for economy].
I remember the old 3GS450h launching much more quickly than the old 3GS460 4.6 V8 which I found quite lethargic.
The new 4GS450h also has a much more magnificent torque curve than the old 3GS460 4.6 V8.
Btw, I wish Lexus would stop using the "detuned" version of the V8's in the GS range; I believe the GS should use exactly the same V8 tune as the LS.
On another note, hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motors are great for economy, and in particular low carbon emissions, but for linear performance, gasoline-electric hybrid like the GS450h still wins by far.
My only worry with the GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid is the extra 200 or so lbs, and its effects on the handling, because weight is the bane of motoring.
The Japanese are so thorough [hence slow] in their development - I can't wait till they come up with lithium batteries; that sure will lighten their gasoline-electric hybrids, hence improve its handling.
A small capacity V6 twin turbo, combined with gasoline-electric hybrid, and compact lightweight lithium batteries in 2019's 5GS could really be something...
The old 3GS450h [designed for performance] is even quicker than the new 4GS450h [designed for economy].
I remember the old 3GS450h launching much more quickly than the old 3GS460 4.6 V8 which I found quite lethargic.
The new 4GS450h also has a much more magnificent torque curve than the old 3GS460 4.6 V8.
Btw, I wish Lexus would stop using the "detuned" version of the V8's in the GS range; I believe the GS should use exactly the same V8 tune as the LS.
On another note, hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motors are great for economy, and in particular low carbon emissions, but for linear performance, gasoline-electric hybrid like the GS450h still wins by far.
My only worry with the GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid is the extra 200 or so lbs, and its effects on the handling, because weight is the bane of motoring.
The Japanese are so thorough [hence slow] in their development - I can't wait till they come up with lithium batteries; that sure will lighten their gasoline-electric hybrids, hence improve its handling.
A small capacity V6 twin turbo, combined with gasoline-electric hybrid, and compact lightweight lithium batteries in 2019's 5GS could really be something...
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-11-14 at 08:51 PM.
12-12-14, 01:08 AM
#95
Pole Position
peteharvey, it is my firm but unsupported belief that Lexus engineers developed the 4GS chassis from ground up with the added weight of the hybrid batteries/powertrain in mind ie the "Ultimate 4GS" in terms of handling/ride balance is the GS450h F-Sport.
Which is why Lexus introduced rear wheel steering into its lineup in the 4GS and not the more performance/driver oriented 3IS.
Because the engineers calculated that in F-Sport guise, the rear wheel steering would just about offset the added weight in the rear of the hybrid batteries.
After developing the Ultimate mainstream GS ( GS450h F-Sport), Lexus then started decontenting the 4GS in order to hit various price points :
4GS450h F-Sport (top of the line)
vanilla 4GS450h, GS350 F-Sport
vanilla 4GS350
GS250, GS300h ( in other markets other than NA)
In short, I believe that the 4GS chassis was designed already to accomodate the added weight of the rear hybrid batteries without having its dynamic balance unsettled as long as rear wheel steering is active.
I had the pleasure of test driving both GS350 F-Sport and GS450h F-Sport (both 4th Gen, both with RWS) 1.5 years ago and I can confidently say that unless on a track, the hybrid F-Sport isn't appreciably worse than the V6 gasoline F-Sport. Sure you can feel added weight and slightly more body roll but grip and confidence around small winding roads was still impressive.
Which is why Lexus introduced rear wheel steering into its lineup in the 4GS and not the more performance/driver oriented 3IS.
Because the engineers calculated that in F-Sport guise, the rear wheel steering would just about offset the added weight in the rear of the hybrid batteries.
After developing the Ultimate mainstream GS ( GS450h F-Sport), Lexus then started decontenting the 4GS in order to hit various price points :
4GS450h F-Sport (top of the line)
vanilla 4GS450h, GS350 F-Sport
vanilla 4GS350
GS250, GS300h ( in other markets other than NA)
In short, I believe that the 4GS chassis was designed already to accomodate the added weight of the rear hybrid batteries without having its dynamic balance unsettled as long as rear wheel steering is active.
I had the pleasure of test driving both GS350 F-Sport and GS450h F-Sport (both 4th Gen, both with RWS) 1.5 years ago and I can confidently say that unless on a track, the hybrid F-Sport isn't appreciably worse than the V6 gasoline F-Sport. Sure you can feel added weight and slightly more body roll but grip and confidence around small winding roads was still impressive.
Last edited by natnut; 12-12-14 at 01:11 AM.
12-12-14, 02:21 PM
#96
Yes, unless you're at 9/10th, the GS450h's chassis is pretty good.
However, the GS450h will always be a whopping 375 lbs [170 kg] heavier than an equivalent GS350.
The GS450h actually tips the scale at 4,211 lbs [1910 kg]!
Since centrifugal force = mass multiplied by velocity squared, divided by the radius of curvature, an increase in mass will cause a rapid decrease in lateral velocity.
There's a variety of drivelines available today, but unfortunately there is no perfect power train format for now.
They each have their pros and cons, and strengths and weaknesses.
Three/four cylinders have excellent efficiency, mileage, low pollution, excellent lightweight handling, and relatively cheap to produce, but they have vibration characteristics, lag and ultimately less power.
Sixes bigger, heavier, more friction, more fuel, heavier nose compromising handling, but more power and greater refinement.
Eights bigger, heavier, more friction, more fuel, heavier nose again compromising the handling, but even greater power and refinement still.
Gasoline-electric hybrids really good in straight line, linearity/flatness of torque curve, mileage esp stop-start city driving, but compromised boot space, and handling at 9/10th.
Likewise the new Toyota Mirai FCV hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motor vehicle weighs over 4,000 lbs [1,850 kg], but has only 153 bhp [113 kW], 247 lbs-ft [355 Nm] and a range of only 300 miles [480 km.]
Not only do these specs deliver a modest 0-60 mph of 9.0 seconds, but at over 4,000 lbs, the grip will only be modest too.
Hence the hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles are zero emission, but performance and handling are both compromised; for now anyway.
I've thought about it a lot, but if I'm too picky, I'll have no car at all.
For me, I'm probably going down the V6 route; for now anyway. I think its a nice compromise between the four and eight.
Each individual must choose which type of driveline suits them best; they are all compromises.
Toyota Mirai cutaway not looking lightweight at over 4,000 lbs [1,850 kg]; with mass compromising handling.
Under the rear seats is the hydrogen tank.
Above the rear axle is the NiMH battery.
While I think the big generator that uses hydrogen to recharge the battery sits under the bonnet.
There is something under the front seats??? Could be a second battery pack??
View from above:
However, the GS450h will always be a whopping 375 lbs [170 kg] heavier than an equivalent GS350.
The GS450h actually tips the scale at 4,211 lbs [1910 kg]!
Since centrifugal force = mass multiplied by velocity squared, divided by the radius of curvature, an increase in mass will cause a rapid decrease in lateral velocity.
There's a variety of drivelines available today, but unfortunately there is no perfect power train format for now.
They each have their pros and cons, and strengths and weaknesses.
Three/four cylinders have excellent efficiency, mileage, low pollution, excellent lightweight handling, and relatively cheap to produce, but they have vibration characteristics, lag and ultimately less power.
Sixes bigger, heavier, more friction, more fuel, heavier nose compromising handling, but more power and greater refinement.
Eights bigger, heavier, more friction, more fuel, heavier nose again compromising the handling, but even greater power and refinement still.
Gasoline-electric hybrids really good in straight line, linearity/flatness of torque curve, mileage esp stop-start city driving, but compromised boot space, and handling at 9/10th.
Likewise the new Toyota Mirai FCV hydrogen fuel cell powered electric motor vehicle weighs over 4,000 lbs [1,850 kg], but has only 153 bhp [113 kW], 247 lbs-ft [355 Nm] and a range of only 300 miles [480 km.]
Not only do these specs deliver a modest 0-60 mph of 9.0 seconds, but at over 4,000 lbs, the grip will only be modest too.
Hence the hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles are zero emission, but performance and handling are both compromised; for now anyway.
I've thought about it a lot, but if I'm too picky, I'll have no car at all.
For me, I'm probably going down the V6 route; for now anyway. I think its a nice compromise between the four and eight.
Each individual must choose which type of driveline suits them best; they are all compromises.
Toyota Mirai cutaway not looking lightweight at over 4,000 lbs [1,850 kg]; with mass compromising handling.
Under the rear seats is the hydrogen tank.
Above the rear axle is the NiMH battery.
While I think the big generator that uses hydrogen to recharge the battery sits under the bonnet.
There is something under the front seats??? Could be a second battery pack??
View from above:
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-12-14 at 06:42 PM.
12-12-14, 03:56 PM
#97
Driver School Candidate
I came from BMW, but from a much different car (2009 M3 Coupe). Needless to say, a new baby caused the switch but I was never really interested in the 535i or 550i, which I felt were actually boring in design especially the interior (personally feel the interior has remained stagnant for two generations). The GS 350 fit the right combination for me in terms of value, comfort and luxury - pretty much what sums up the Lexus brand for me.
12-14-14, 08:05 PM
#99
Lexus Champion
THANKS TO ALL THAT REPLIED TO THIS POST BUT, I can't seem to pull the trigger on the Lexus. Been to the dealer several times and while the "December Event" is very enticing, I just can't take the leap. While the interior, features, and reliability of the F Sport is all there, the old 550i just pulls me back. I can't ignore the effortless power of the V8. It even gets reasonable MPG for the type of driving I do. Full disclosure though. My 550i has been modded so it rides and sounds the part and its no easy car to ignore when driven back to back with the current F Sport, at least for me.
So, I'll wait until the 2016 refresh for the GS...perhaps the Lexus V6 will be more powerful and maybe it'll get some reasonable mileage.
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
So, I'll wait until the 2016 refresh for the GS...perhaps the Lexus V6 will be more powerful and maybe it'll get some reasonable mileage.
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
12-15-14, 10:32 AM
#100
Lexus Test Driver
Lol, if you're just cross shopping a v8 to a v6, it's a no-brainer decision. Although the 550i is substantially more expensive when you match the options up. Well, good luck to you, and say hi to your service guy once a month. 
12-15-14, 10:51 AM
#101
I have written up my review of my current cars and you may know that I just bought an A7 to replace my 550 BMW. There were things that kept me from getting another one, but I will say that reliability is not one of them. It now has just over 40,000 mile on it and it has been to the dealer three times for routine maintenance and once for a problem. That is four times in just under three years. I have friends with similar and even better experiences with BMWs
12-15-14, 04:38 PM
#102
The OP is considering a 550i V8.
Natnut's alternative of a GS450h not a bad idea, on second thoughts.
Lexus have two types of hybrids:
1) a performance hybrid eg the old 3GS GS450h, and
2) an economy hybrid eg the new 4GS450h.
The old performance hybrid has larger electric motors, and larger batteries, or something like that.
Pity Lexus didn't build both types of hybrid engines along side each other simultaneously, and call the performance version a GS450h, while the economy version a so called "GS400h", then there would be a real 4GS GS450h performance hybrid version for real V8-like "performance".
Afterall, a V8 is heavy on handling, but a performance hybrid is also heavy too, but a real performance hybrid with bigger electric motors, and bigger batteries - would truly have the power to match a 550i V8...
Natnut's alternative of a GS450h not a bad idea, on second thoughts.
Lexus have two types of hybrids:
1) a performance hybrid eg the old 3GS GS450h, and
2) an economy hybrid eg the new 4GS450h.
The old performance hybrid has larger electric motors, and larger batteries, or something like that.
Pity Lexus didn't build both types of hybrid engines along side each other simultaneously, and call the performance version a GS450h, while the economy version a so called "GS400h", then there would be a real 4GS GS450h performance hybrid version for real V8-like "performance".
Afterall, a V8 is heavy on handling, but a performance hybrid is also heavy too, but a real performance hybrid with bigger electric motors, and bigger batteries - would truly have the power to match a 550i V8...
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-15-14 at 04:56 PM.
12-15-14, 04:54 PM
#103
I just traded my 535ix 09 for a 2014 IS350 AWD f-sport, and I have no regrets. I had 7k worth of warranty work done on the E60, before I happily traded it! The BMW was a great car...but not out of warranty!
02-08-15, 04:30 PM
#104
Driver
Thread Starter
UPDATE: I'm Back!
Yes....as everyone mentioned. I miss the big torque of my 550i but am quite pleased with my F Sport. Its a well equipped sedan for long trips and a agilel sedan for DD needs. And, most of all I'm looking forward to many years of care free driving. Peace of mind trumps power and torque for me.
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THAT COMMENTED IN THIS THREAD.
PIC: My 550i last seen here...about a hour just before I met this Lexus:
