Back to Lexus from BMW...Any regrets?
08-26-14, 03:02 PM
#76
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Great first post and summary.
I owned a 2011 F10 535i for almost 30 months. It had the sport package, dynamic handling package, and just about every option save for HUD, Sport Automatic Transmission and Night vision.
My car had a multitude of first year build problems (my car was built in the second month of full production for the model). However, the majority of these were worked out later in the MY and simply are not present on 2012 models and above. Discounting this, I feel like BMW's are decent reliability wise. Not as good as Lexus or Acura, but certainly not Land Rover / Jaguar territory as is made out to be.
IMO, there is more than a bit of BMW bashing and sterotyping going on in this thread.
Having said that, I strongly considered another F10 5 series when I got the GS. However, much like JJSC6, I prefer the way that the GS DRIVES. There is much I like better about the BMW. The styling. The POWER. iDrive. The leather. Etc. But I will say that the GS simply rides and drives more how I prefer a car to be set up. It rides and drives like an E60 5 series. The F10 5 series is too much of a mini-7.
The 5 series is not a bad car. It is a very good car, that has had it's priorities redefined.
Things I like better about the Lexus? The steering (no wandering on center, not vague, much quicker, more feedback). The ride (despite both my car and my F10 having adaptive suspension, I feel that the Lexus is much more "of a piece" and better sorted. The F10 was either too hard or too soft. This was solved in later models from what I have driven). The feeling of lightness (the Lexus is a lot lighter). The fact that there is a dedicated portion of the screen to show infotainment (vs. the meager small box in the BMW). The vented seats work better. The transmission is quicker to react than the one in my BMW (probably would have been solved by having Sport Automatic Transmission in the BMW). And the price. I was definitely shopping to a price this time and did not want to pay the extra for the BMW.
I may get another Lexus when the lease is up. But only if they come out with a more powerful GS. The lack of power leaves me wanting. GS-F would be very sweet indeed. Otherwise I will return to BMW...to an M3.
Yes, more money, but more focused on my personal priorities than a 550 or even an M5 would be (and the M5 is out of my budget!). It's got enough lux to keep me happy and size to keep the family happy, but it's performance is otherworldly.
So unless you feel like you are totally addicted to the power and torque of the 550, then I don't think you'll have any regrets making the switch. I don't.
I owned a 2011 F10 535i for almost 30 months. It had the sport package, dynamic handling package, and just about every option save for HUD, Sport Automatic Transmission and Night vision.
My car had a multitude of first year build problems (my car was built in the second month of full production for the model). However, the majority of these were worked out later in the MY and simply are not present on 2012 models and above. Discounting this, I feel like BMW's are decent reliability wise. Not as good as Lexus or Acura, but certainly not Land Rover / Jaguar territory as is made out to be.
IMO, there is more than a bit of BMW bashing and sterotyping going on in this thread.
Having said that, I strongly considered another F10 5 series when I got the GS. However, much like JJSC6, I prefer the way that the GS DRIVES. There is much I like better about the BMW. The styling. The POWER. iDrive. The leather. Etc. But I will say that the GS simply rides and drives more how I prefer a car to be set up. It rides and drives like an E60 5 series. The F10 5 series is too much of a mini-7.
The 5 series is not a bad car. It is a very good car, that has had it's priorities redefined.
Things I like better about the Lexus? The steering (no wandering on center, not vague, much quicker, more feedback). The ride (despite both my car and my F10 having adaptive suspension, I feel that the Lexus is much more "of a piece" and better sorted. The F10 was either too hard or too soft. This was solved in later models from what I have driven). The feeling of lightness (the Lexus is a lot lighter). The fact that there is a dedicated portion of the screen to show infotainment (vs. the meager small box in the BMW). The vented seats work better. The transmission is quicker to react than the one in my BMW (probably would have been solved by having Sport Automatic Transmission in the BMW). And the price. I was definitely shopping to a price this time and did not want to pay the extra for the BMW.
I may get another Lexus when the lease is up. But only if they come out with a more powerful GS. The lack of power leaves me wanting. GS-F would be very sweet indeed. Otherwise I will return to BMW...to an M3.
Yes, more money, but more focused on my personal priorities than a 550 or even an M5 would be (and the M5 is out of my budget!). It's got enough lux to keep me happy and size to keep the family happy, but it's performance is otherworldly.
So unless you feel like you are totally addicted to the power and torque of the 550, then I don't think you'll have any regrets making the switch. I don't.
Good to hear from a former BMW F10 owner and one who shares the same regard I have about the former handling prowess of the E60 5 series.
Glad to hear you're pleased with your Lexus. Just curious...Does your GS have the rear steering? If not, have you driven one and do you think its worth looking for? My local dealer had none on hand.
Another question...As you remember back in the F10 days, the frustration with the run flats. I have the Michelin Primacys and their OK but nothing like performance non run flats. What tires shipped on your F Sport and do you feel they're up to the task? Or are performance tires (i.e. Michelin PS2 or A3) needed on the GS for full effect?
Thanks
08-26-14, 03:51 PM
#77
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Costly maintenance is a given for any luxury brand.
First, RFT's are a joke and a ripoff. Switch to non-rft's, carry a can of fix-a-flat and a AAA card and you're done.
Second, I just had a conversation with a very wealthy guy with all kinds of cars - Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris', and we were talking about his wife's LS. He told us the local dealer was banging him for a $200 alignment every 10k miles...which they did not do, causing his tires to wear every 10k miles (bad toe). And that they were keeping the gift cards he should have gotten, overcharging him for tires, and also getting the tires for free because the manufacturer had a wear warranty up to 25k miles and pro-rated after that up to 80k.
THis crap happens all the time, that's why they call them stealers. Not just at BMW.
First, RFT's are a joke and a ripoff. Switch to non-rft's, carry a can of fix-a-flat and a AAA card and you're done.
Second, I just had a conversation with a very wealthy guy with all kinds of cars - Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris', and we were talking about his wife's LS. He told us the local dealer was banging him for a $200 alignment every 10k miles...which they did not do, causing his tires to wear every 10k miles (bad toe). And that they were keeping the gift cards he should have gotten, overcharging him for tires, and also getting the tires for free because the manufacturer had a wear warranty up to 25k miles and pro-rated after that up to 80k.
THis crap happens all the time, that's why they call them stealers. Not just at BMW.
however, I agree and respectfully disagree with your comment. Yes. It's given that any luxury brand has costly maintenance, but you forgot the reliability as well. Maybe I was just bad luck to own a crappy BMW, but I have heard numerous negative comments once the warranty is gone and the amount how much the owners have to pay out of their pockets to fix/maintain a car. To be fair, it's not just BMW, it happens on Audi/Benz too. Just to make it clear to the topic with my own opinion, BMW is very fun to drive but not to own it, especially in a long run.
PS. The wealthy guy that you just spoke with shouldn't even keep the LS for long since he's very rich. He should have changed cars every year and forget the alignment. LOL
08-27-14, 07:10 PM
#78
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I've come from 12 years of BMW's to my first Lexus. Technically my first Lexus since I got the wife a CT200 a few years back.
My experience with BMW, they are the best handling cars period and the reassured planted feel you get on the freeway has been non-existent in the Lexus lineup, until the 4th gen GS and somewhat in the CT. The brakes are definitely better on the BMW's but Lexus is getting there.
However, as my neighbor can attest to, I was at the dealer practically every month and knew my SA very well. I won't go into all the fixes but noteworthy were the following: hard top (E93), window creak (E46 M3), navigation issue (E46 M3) to major issues that I'm sure all BMW owners have had to deal with the dreaded HPFP (E93), SMG transmission issues, plural (E60 M5), and an entire engine replacement (free of charge, early model E46 M3 engines disintegrated and were warrantied for 100k miles).
So far, my Lexus experience has been great! My wishlist, more power!!! I can't complain though, it's fine for everyday driving.
My experience with BMW, they are the best handling cars period and the reassured planted feel you get on the freeway has been non-existent in the Lexus lineup, until the 4th gen GS and somewhat in the CT. The brakes are definitely better on the BMW's but Lexus is getting there.
However, as my neighbor can attest to, I was at the dealer practically every month and knew my SA very well. I won't go into all the fixes but noteworthy were the following: hard top (E93), window creak (E46 M3), navigation issue (E46 M3) to major issues that I'm sure all BMW owners have had to deal with the dreaded HPFP (E93), SMG transmission issues, plural (E60 M5), and an entire engine replacement (free of charge, early model E46 M3 engines disintegrated and were warrantied for 100k miles).
So far, my Lexus experience has been great! My wishlist, more power!!! I can't complain though, it's fine for everyday driving.
08-28-14, 09:25 AM
#79
Update on BMW/GS350 Experience
After 4 BMW's I'm down to just one, my 2008 528i, which has been an excellent car. Took it in Tuesday to replace a leak detector pump in the fuel system that caused the check engine light to come on. They gave me a brand new 2014 non-Sport 535i with 1400 miles on it to drive for 2 days while my car was being repaired. So after driving it for a couple hundred miles, mostly on the DFW freeways where you will get run over if you are not driving 75-80 mph, I had a good chance to check out the new model. All of the common complaints discussed by former owners here and on the BMW forums were still present in this brand-new car. Acceleration was great, except every time I stepped on it to get on a freeway, or to change lanes the car would hesitate 1-2 seconds while it was figuring out which gear to downshift to. The delay was very pronounced and bordered on being unsafe. My GS350 with it's 6-speed tranny on the other hand has an instant response when you stand on it, much better than the BMW. The electronic steering in the BMW totally lacked the feel and feedback of the older hydraulic steering in previous models. Very different from the GS350 which is lighter but more precise. The ride was choppy and uncomfortable on any but very smooth roads due to the miserable run-flat tires. Hitting a bump or pothole would jar you out of your seat. And the road and tire noise was much higher in the BMW due to the run-flat tires. Tire noise is my main complaint on the GS350 but it proved to be much worse on the 535i. The NAV/Entertainment system seemed primitive compared to the GS. The screen is much smaller and the maps and controls are over-complicated and seem antiquated. You can't read the street names of crossing streets unless you set it on the 400 foot range. Then getting back to the main menu, required hitting the Back Button or the Menu Button on the console. You couldn't monitor the maps and the radio at the same time. It required switching back and forth between the 2 pages that are simultaneously displayed on the Lexus system. The Stop/Start system was a nuisance requiring you to manually turn it off after starting the car. Default was ON. I think you can now disable that through a menu but we couldn't figure out how to do it. To open doors on the BMW required pulling the door handle TWICE...what's up with that? The backup camera and warning device is much better in the GS350 in providing critical information to the driver. There were other comparisons we made that don't come to mind right now, but you get the idea. Would I ever trade my GS350 for a BMW? Absolutely not. I couldn't wait to turn this loaner in and get home to my GS. My next car will be the next major update of the GS, probably in 2016. Sadly the BMW is no longer "The Ultimate Driving Machine".
08-28-14, 12:56 PM
#80
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After 4 BMW's I'm down to just one, my 2008 528i, which has been an excellent car. Took it in Tuesday to replace a leak detector pump in the fuel system that caused the check engine light to come on. They gave me a brand new 2014 non-Sport 535i with 1400 miles on it to drive for 2 days while my car was being repaired. So after driving it for a couple hundred miles, mostly on the DFW freeways where you will get run over if you are not driving 75-80 mph, I had a good chance to check out the new model. All of the common complaints discussed by former owners here and on the BMW forums were still present in this brand-new car. Acceleration was great, except every time I stepped on it to get on a freeway, or to change lanes the car would hesitate 1-2 seconds while it was figuring out which gear to downshift to. The delay was very pronounced and bordered on being unsafe. My GS350 with it's 6-speed tranny on the other hand has an instant response when you stand on it, much better than the BMW. The electronic steering in the BMW totally lacked the feel and feedback of the older hydraulic steering in previous models. Very different from the GS350 which is lighter but more precise. The ride was choppy and uncomfortable on any but very smooth roads due to the miserable run-flat tires. Hitting a bump or pothole would jar you out of your seat. And the road and tire noise was much higher in the BMW due to the run-flat tires. Tire noise is my main complaint on the GS350 but it proved to be much worse on the 535i. The NAV/Entertainment system seemed primitive compared to the GS. The screen is much smaller and the maps and controls are over-complicated and seem antiquated. You can't read the street names of crossing streets unless you set it on the 400 foot range. Then getting back to the main menu, required hitting the Back Button or the Menu Button on the console. You couldn't monitor the maps and the radio at the same time. It required switching back and forth between the 2 pages that are simultaneously displayed on the Lexus system. The Stop/Start system was a nuisance requiring you to manually turn it off after starting the car. Default was ON. I think you can now disable that through a menu but we couldn't figure out how to do it. To open doors on the BMW required pulling the door handle TWICE...what's up with that? The backup camera and warning device is much better in the GS350 in providing critical information to the driver. There were other comparisons we made that don't come to mind right now, but you get the idea. Would I ever trade my GS350 for a BMW? Absolutely not. I couldn't wait to turn this loaner in and get home to my GS. My next car will be the next major update of the GS, probably in 2016. Sadly the BMW is no longer "The Ultimate Driving Machine".
Shame on BMW.
Monitoring the radio and nav can be set up the same way as in the GS. Much as in the GS, the split screen info can be controlled separately, and the right hand side screen can display infotainment data, etc.
Stop start can be defaulted to off. Dealer needs to set it that way unless you code it (similar to Lexus dealer only settings).
Opening the doors requiring pulling twice - that's because they're set to auto lock. The first pull is to unlock the door, the second to open. So consider it a bit safer than the GS which would not open at all if the auto lock didn't open at stop. You can set it to open when you park, open when you turn off, or simply not auto lock in the first place. IF the door is not locked, you only need to pull once.
RFT's are terrible, I ditched them second day I had the car. Will never own a car with them again. Ride sucks, handling sucks, noise sucks, and they bubble when you hit a pothole.
Ride / handling / steering - the base 535 is terrible. It is set up to be a marshmallow. Get a car with the MSport suspension and Sport Auto Transmission and it's much closer to the GS, just heavier (but more powerful). But to play evenly with the GS Fsport ($56k) takes a car that's optioned up to over $75k. Does not compute.
08-28-14, 01:03 PM
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Wasup 'needsdecaf'! I've read numerous post by you on Bimmerfest and especially liked your Lexus GS 350 write up earlier this year.
Good to hear from a former BMW F10 owner and one who shares the same regard I have about the former handling prowess of the E60 5 series.
Glad to hear you're pleased with your Lexus. Just curious...Does your GS have the rear steering? If not, have you driven one and do you think its worth looking for? My local dealer had none on hand.
Another question...As you remember back in the F10 days, the frustration with the run flats. I have the Michelin Primacys and their OK but nothing like performance non run flats. What tires shipped on your F Sport and do you feel they're up to the task? Or are performance tires (i.e. Michelin PS2 or A3) needed on the GS for full effect?
Thanks
Good to hear from a former BMW F10 owner and one who shares the same regard I have about the former handling prowess of the E60 5 series.
Glad to hear you're pleased with your Lexus. Just curious...Does your GS have the rear steering? If not, have you driven one and do you think its worth looking for? My local dealer had none on hand.
Another question...As you remember back in the F10 days, the frustration with the run flats. I have the Michelin Primacys and their OK but nothing like performance non run flats. What tires shipped on your F Sport and do you feel they're up to the task? Or are performance tires (i.e. Michelin PS2 or A3) needed on the GS for full effect?
Thanks
As for tires, the FSport shipped with Potenza RE 050A's. I honestly can't tell you how they ultimately perform, as there simply aren't enough curves in Houston to tell you. They are quiet and don't squeal easily, and seem to work well with the car. However, I would never buy them again since the treadwear rating is 140!!! I would most certainly buy the Pilot Super Sports. I had them on my 535 and they were simply amazing. Worked very, very well in the wet, great ride, very communicative, etc. Plus the treadwear is over 300! Outstanding for a summer only tire. At 6500 miles, I'm seeing decent wear on my rears on the FSport. Would not expect to get 20k out of them.
08-28-14, 01:26 PM
#82
Lexus Test Driver
After reading all the comparisons on here and hearing friends' stories about their BMWs, I'm glad I made the right choice by going for the GS.
To me, if I'm spending this kind of money on a luxury car it better not have any problems!
A friend bought a demo 328i AWD and he's always at the dealer getting something replaced. He has been replacing parts like a taillight piece that kept popping off, a side mirror, interior panels, and now the steering wheel needs to be replaced. It's a never ending story, every time I talk to him he always has something to say about a replacement part for his BMW.
To me, if I'm spending this kind of money on a luxury car it better not have any problems!
A friend bought a demo 328i AWD and he's always at the dealer getting something replaced. He has been replacing parts like a taillight piece that kept popping off, a side mirror, interior panels, and now the steering wheel needs to be replaced. It's a never ending story, every time I talk to him he always has something to say about a replacement part for his BMW.
08-28-14, 06:33 PM
#83
Lexus Test Driver
After reading all the comparisons on here and hearing friends' stories about their BMWs, I'm glad I made the right choice by going for the GS.
To me, if I'm spending this kind of money on a luxury car it better not have any problems!
A friend bought a demo 328i AWD and he's always at the dealer getting something replaced. He has been replacing parts like a taillight piece that kept popping off, a side mirror, interior panels, and now the steering wheel needs to be replaced. It's a never ending story, every time I talk to him he always has something to say about a replacement part for his BMW.
To me, if I'm spending this kind of money on a luxury car it better not have any problems!
A friend bought a demo 328i AWD and he's always at the dealer getting something replaced. He has been replacing parts like a taillight piece that kept popping off, a side mirror, interior panels, and now the steering wheel needs to be replaced. It's a never ending story, every time I talk to him he always has something to say about a replacement part for his BMW.
08-28-14, 06:39 PM
#84
Lexus Test Driver
You gotta pay to play with bimmers. I like them but at my age they're super out of my price range because I don't want a stripped one... And my closest dealers is 3 hours away. I had a 3 series but not long enough to really make any assumptions other than the interior quality and design was sad (an '09).
12-10-14, 09:52 PM
#86
Driver
Thread Starter
Will take a pass for now
THANKS TO ALL THAT REPLIED TO THIS POST BUT, I can't seem to pull the trigger on the Lexus. Been to the dealer several times and while the "December Event" is very enticing, I just can't take the leap. While the interior, features, and reliability of the F Sport is all there, the old 550i just pulls me back. I can't ignore the effortless power of the V8. It even gets reasonable MPG for the type of driving I do. Full disclosure though. My 550i has been modded so it rides and sounds the part and its no easy car to ignore when driven back to back with the current F Sport, at least for me.
So, I'll wait until the 2016 refresh for the GS...perhaps the Lexus V6 will be more powerful and maybe it'll get some reasonable mileage.
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
So, I'll wait until the 2016 refresh for the GS...perhaps the Lexus V6 will be more powerful and maybe it'll get some reasonable mileage.
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
12-10-14, 10:10 PM
#87
Pole Position
Don't want to sound like a broken record but a 2015 GS450h F-Sport with Dynamic Rear Steering may be just the right car for you.
Low end torque -check
balanced and yet fast reacting chassis/suspension-check
powertrain responds and picks up speed like a V8 - check
drives smaller than it really is ie nimble as a car one class smaller-check
better Fuel economy than any V8 or v6 in its class-check
Low end torque -check
balanced and yet fast reacting chassis/suspension-check
powertrain responds and picks up speed like a V8 - check
drives smaller than it really is ie nimble as a car one class smaller-check
better Fuel economy than any V8 or v6 in its class-check
12-11-14, 04:35 AM
#88
Don't want to sound like a broken record but a 2015 GS450h F-Sport with Dynamic Rear Steering may be just the right car for you.
Low end torque -check
balanced and yet fast reacting chassis/suspension-check
powertrain responds and picks up speed like a V8 - check
drives smaller than it really is ie nimble as a car one class smaller-check
better Fuel economy than any V8 or v6 in its class-check
Low end torque -check
balanced and yet fast reacting chassis/suspension-check
powertrain responds and picks up speed like a V8 - check
drives smaller than it really is ie nimble as a car one class smaller-check
better Fuel economy than any V8 or v6 in its class-check
12-11-14, 09:08 AM
#89
Time is important for a lot of folks, in many cases time is money. I know you'll still be under warranty but how much does your time cost you when you're dropping your car in for service (which happens more often than with a Lexus)?
Funny, when I go back to the BMW forums (bimmerfest, bimmerboards, Roadfly) the common discussion is over something breaking/failing and the owners complaints (BMW customer relations is terrible). And this is for the newer, recent models, not the old cars past warranty.
Funny, when I go back to the BMW forums (bimmerfest, bimmerboards, Roadfly) the common discussion is over something breaking/failing and the owners complaints (BMW customer relations is terrible). And this is for the newer, recent models, not the old cars past warranty.
12-11-14, 12:18 PM
#90
I think the jury is still out on that. The car only has 30 more hp than the non hybrid and it weighs over 200 lbs more. It also has a smaller trunk. I think any performance gains would be very minimal. I find it hard to believe it feels like a bigger engine. I understand torque as much as anyone, but according to the Lexus website it "rockets" from 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.....exactly 1/10 of a second faster than the non-hybrid.