If the GS is so good, why are sales low?
05-11-14, 11:24 AM
#302
Guest
Posts: n/a
What's not to get. If a car doesn;t sell to that level it means a lot of things. While doesn;t make it a failure it does mean that the car is not competitive enough for people to consider it, it's not popular enough, it's too bland, too expensive for what it offers, not too luxurious for the money, engines not fast enough, engines not fuel efficient enough, the competition it's better. Lots of factors goes into that.
If Germans are known for their unreliability and they still sell 5 times more than Lexus, I think Lexus should acknowledge they have a problem.
I cannot think of a car that was so good , or the best and not sell.
I do agree and think that the rebadge toyota ES hurts the sells but it's such a success that makes Lexus happy with that and hence why I think they don;t put much thought into the GS.. They are so happy with the way ES sells that they just left GS be..
Lexus it;s the newest brand and they don;t have the financial power the germans have, I think in years Lexus would compete but now they are too small.
If Germans are known for their unreliability and they still sell 5 times more than Lexus, I think Lexus should acknowledge they have a problem.
I cannot think of a car that was so good , or the best and not sell.
I do agree and think that the rebadge toyota ES hurts the sells but it's such a success that makes Lexus happy with that and hence why I think they don;t put much thought into the GS.. They are so happy with the way ES sells that they just left GS be..
Lexus it;s the newest brand and they don;t have the financial power the germans have, I think in years Lexus would compete but now they are too small.
1. GS sold more worldwide than ever before
2. GS was 800 units shy of first year goal, so they reached 97% of their sales goal.
3. GS sales are up thus far in 2014.
Some of you continue to falsely accuse the GS of failing because it does not sell like the heavyweights, the 5 and E class. We are not even sure of margins for each car, who is to say the GS doesn't make the most money with the least sales? We just don't know.
Again with this logic we should beat the crap out of the X1, X3, GLK, ML, Q5 etc for not selling like the Lexus RX. The Lexus RX vastly outsells them. Does this make those SUVs failures? NO! They have different purposes and sales goals. Obviously the German strategy is different. So why is it an issue if Lexus strategy is different?
The ES is not a rebadge, that is totally false. A rebadge is taking one badge and putting it on another car with minimal changes. The ES is now based off the Avalon and the two cars are completely different inside and out.
In regards to financial power that is a really odd comment. Lexus brings in over 50% of Toyota's profits yet sells a small number of their total cars. Toyota is sitting on 35 billion cash. Lexus being owned by Toyota as Audi by VW means those two brands have financial support and don't need to be completely about volume. BMW and Benz contrarily have to drive volume up to keep costs down. Thus they are moving more and more downmarket as well as creating vehicles for every niche. Lexus being only 25 years old is one of the top 100 valued brands in the world. That is pretty impressive as it surpasses many full line and older car brands.
Not sure how Lexus has a problem lol. Their business model works. They sold 525k cars worldwide last year and the majority of their cars are V-6 and larger. Their quality is still number one. They are a very high profit company.
The Germans all sold 1 million or more units and offer a vast array of vehicles Lexus does not offer, including a ton of small cars and a huge amount of 4 cylinder engines. They are also profitable and doing well.
Its obvious the Germans and Lexus all do well, all make a ton of money, all are highly respected and all have very happy consumers and owners. Not sure how in the world, Lexus has a problem.
Last edited by LexFather; 05-11-14 at 11:27 AM.
05-11-14, 12:59 PM
#303
Pole Position
To add to what Lexfather said about going down market to chase sales : I'm not too sure that BMW's and MB's strategy of going down market to drive short-term volume isn't going to bite them in the *** further down the road.
There's this thing called brand perception and brand equity. This is a LONGTERM thing painstakingly built up by ze Germans over almost a century of solid engineering. And now they are seemingly throwing it away for temporary shortterm sales gains by putting poorly made bargain basement models on the road. That's going to hurt long-term brand perception when basic stripper 320i and fwd based CLAs start flooding the streets. Already in this thread we see members complaining about how 5 series are the new Camrys and no longer anything special.
I think Lexus is pursuing the right strategy with the GS albeit with some fine tuning required : sell ENOUGH GS's to make a reasonable CONSISTENT profit for the company and cover the R&D costs for the new chassis/platform development while not devaluing longterm brand equity of the company or the model.
Right now the Germans are caught in a vicious downward spiral of cost cutting of materials and engineering to maintain profits yet also cutting price of entry for their previously exclusive models(as consumer expectations of German car exclusivity/prices drop ever downward) in order to drive volume. This has no happy ending for them in the long-term : they risk becoming a Continental Camry brand at this rate.
Thankfully Lexus is taking the long-term view with the GS in particular and with the entire company in general.
There's this thing called brand perception and brand equity. This is a LONGTERM thing painstakingly built up by ze Germans over almost a century of solid engineering. And now they are seemingly throwing it away for temporary shortterm sales gains by putting poorly made bargain basement models on the road. That's going to hurt long-term brand perception when basic stripper 320i and fwd based CLAs start flooding the streets. Already in this thread we see members complaining about how 5 series are the new Camrys and no longer anything special.
I think Lexus is pursuing the right strategy with the GS albeit with some fine tuning required : sell ENOUGH GS's to make a reasonable CONSISTENT profit for the company and cover the R&D costs for the new chassis/platform development while not devaluing longterm brand equity of the company or the model.
Right now the Germans are caught in a vicious downward spiral of cost cutting of materials and engineering to maintain profits yet also cutting price of entry for their previously exclusive models(as consumer expectations of German car exclusivity/prices drop ever downward) in order to drive volume. This has no happy ending for them in the long-term : they risk becoming a Continental Camry brand at this rate.
Thankfully Lexus is taking the long-term view with the GS in particular and with the entire company in general.
Last edited by natnut; 05-11-14 at 01:06 PM.
05-11-14, 02:22 PM
#304
Lexus Test Driver
It might be okay for BMW to go for the low hanging fruit as long as they still have high end versions of those products. When I see a 528i on the road, while I still respect the vehicle, I know it's the "cheap" version. I hardly see any 535i's and almost never see a 550i. M5? What?
So to me, there's still plenty of exclusivity to be had IF you're willing to pay the price for it. When I was growing up, cars like the Trans Am GTA, Grand National "GNX" and Mustang Cobra were top of the line but there were still four cylinder Firebirds, Mustangs and plain old regular Regals. Although these cars were all very similar in appearance, enthusiasts knew the difference - and that's all that mattered to those who owned the expensive versions.
I'd like some exclusivity with my new car. I don't really have that option with the GS.
So to me, there's still plenty of exclusivity to be had IF you're willing to pay the price for it. When I was growing up, cars like the Trans Am GTA, Grand National "GNX" and Mustang Cobra were top of the line but there were still four cylinder Firebirds, Mustangs and plain old regular Regals. Although these cars were all very similar in appearance, enthusiasts knew the difference - and that's all that mattered to those who owned the expensive versions.
I'd like some exclusivity with my new car. I don't really have that option with the GS.
05-11-14, 02:36 PM
#305
It might be okay for BMW to go for the low hanging fruit as long as they still have high end versions of those products. When I see a 528i on the road, while I still respect the vehicle, I know it's the "cheap" version. I hardly see any 535i's and almost never see a 550i. M5? What?
So to me, there's still plenty of exclusivity to be had IF you're willing to pay the price for it. When I was growing up, cars like the Trans Am GTA, Grand National "GNX" and Mustang Cobra were top of the line but there were still four cylinder Firebirds, Mustangs and plain old regular Regals. Although these cars were all very similar in appearance, enthusiasts knew the difference - and that's all that mattered to those who owned the expensive versions.
I'd like some exclusivity with my new car. I don't really have that option with the GS.
So to me, there's still plenty of exclusivity to be had IF you're willing to pay the price for it. When I was growing up, cars like the Trans Am GTA, Grand National "GNX" and Mustang Cobra were top of the line but there were still four cylinder Firebirds, Mustangs and plain old regular Regals. Although these cars were all very similar in appearance, enthusiasts knew the difference - and that's all that mattered to those who owned the expensive versions.
I'd like some exclusivity with my new car. I don't really have that option with the GS.
I never said no to Lexus' new four cylinder turbo. Less weight on the front overhang for better handling, and more economical, and cheaper to manufacture in the long term.
Although personally, I still prefer the smoothness of a six. I think a six has the best balance between a four, and an eight. The eight is just too heavy on the nose, so it noticeably affects the turn-in and yaw.
So Lexus is a bit slow.
However, now and then, people will often say that the Europeans are great at "innovation", while the Japanese are great at "refinement".
Personally, I prefer the refinement; I can't stand the way my friends spend at least $1,000 for every service, and having to trade-in their cars early.
05-11-14, 02:50 PM
#306
BMW's lease better than anything to drive sales, so your Marketing 101 example is really off here. They also are battling Benz intensely here for the #1 sales title and doing whatever it takes to sell cars. Are we talking about the same brand?
BMW has moved even more downmarket. They will begin to offer FWD cars. BMW's lease better than anything not Infiniti (mentioning MSRP means nothing, no one pays it). Your premise of "not offering a cheaper version" is BMWs strategy. In Europe you can get all sorts of base model 520 cars etc for example.
In America, we now have a 180hp base bare bones 320 to help spur sales and move "downmarket'. Mind you I stated a thread saying this was a BRILLIANT strategy to drive sales. You see its pretty obvious that badge power counts for more than we really thought and if a brand's research dictates going smaller (engine) with less features will drive sales, more power to them. It obviously works and there is a niche of people who could care less about performance, technology etc. They want to be associated with the brand.
Funny though, either you are oblivious to this or its just a problem if Lexus does it.
As Max707 stated, they have done a great job fooling people into thinking all they sell are V-8s and M cars, as evidenced above.
Its funny when Lexus was #1 in sales all those years it was a problem and Lexus was over saturating the luxury market. Now that Lexus is not #1 (and is sportier) people are stating how important sales are over and over and ignoring cars becoming less sporty.
How the debate has changed to support bias.
BMW has moved even more downmarket. They will begin to offer FWD cars. BMW's lease better than anything not Infiniti (mentioning MSRP means nothing, no one pays it). Your premise of "not offering a cheaper version" is BMWs strategy. In Europe you can get all sorts of base model 520 cars etc for example.
In America, we now have a 180hp base bare bones 320 to help spur sales and move "downmarket'. Mind you I stated a thread saying this was a BRILLIANT strategy to drive sales. You see its pretty obvious that badge power counts for more than we really thought and if a brand's research dictates going smaller (engine) with less features will drive sales, more power to them. It obviously works and there is a niche of people who could care less about performance, technology etc. They want to be associated with the brand.
Funny though, either you are oblivious to this or its just a problem if Lexus does it.
As Max707 stated, they have done a great job fooling people into thinking all they sell are V-8s and M cars, as evidenced above. Its funny when Lexus was #1 in sales all those years it was a problem and Lexus was over saturating the luxury market. Now that Lexus is not #1 (and is sportier) people are stating how important sales are over and over and ignoring cars becoming less sporty.
How the debate has changed to support bias.
I'm only interested in talking about the US. I'm well aware of what BMW and MB are globally, but they are the ones who positioned themselves as a premium brand in the US and it has worked for them, just as Lexus was positioned as a premium brand in the US with the same car selling as a Toyota in the rest of the world for many years. BTW, I never said they should be like BMW or MB or anyone else. I don't agree with everything they do either.
Last edited by jjscsix; 05-11-14 at 03:02 PM.
05-11-14, 02:52 PM
#307
Pole Position
Brand perception is driven by the mass market not enthusiasts like you and me. If all you see on the road are 4 cylinder BMWs with crappy engine notes and overpriced basic interiors, after a while the public perception is going to be that those horrid basement models are representative of the brand.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
05-11-14, 03:03 PM
#308
Brand perception is driven by the mass market not enthusiasts like you and me. If all you see on the road are 4 cylinder BMWs with crappy engine notes and overpriced basic interiors, after a while the public perception is going to be that those horrid basement models are representative of the brand.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
One thing that is forgotten in this discussion is that other than Mini, neither BMW or MB have a lower price car line like Lexus does (Toyota), so they (BMW/MB) are having to drive sales up within the BMW/MB brand. Lexus does not have to do that because they have the Toyota brand to drive volume.
05-11-14, 03:08 PM
#309
Brand perception is driven by the mass market not enthusiasts like you and me. If all you see on the road are 4 cylinder BMWs with crappy engine notes and overpriced basic interiors, after a while the public perception is going to be that those horrid basement models are representative of the brand.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
For what it's worth, at least some like BMW for example still offer the 760iL and it's V12 which helps them retain that perception to buyers that their 320i shares a badge and "pedigree"
05-11-14, 05:31 PM
#310
Lexus Test Driver
I dunno man, Infiniti tried this with the G25 and it tanked so hard it barely made it through a year of production before they killed it. The RC and IS are good candidates but when you get in a car this size, you expect it to go when you floor it. A GS250 in the US would fail so hard they'd slap the person that suggested it at corporate. The IS250 does well enough and it's much cheaper.
05-11-14, 05:33 PM
#311
Guest
Posts: n/a
Your post is so all over the place, and out of context that I hardly know where to start. You say that BMWs list prices are meaningless because of discounts and leases, yet this is the same forum that said there are $400 leases on the GS, and I paid $1000 below invoice for ours. As to BMW having FWD cars, name a premium brand that does not, and to my knowledge, the only BMW that does is not even sold under the BMW label.
I'm only interested in talking about the US. I'm well aware of what BMW and MB are globally, but they are the ones who positioned themselves as a premium brand in the US and it has worked for them, just as Lexus was positioned as a premium brand in the US with the same car selling as a Toyota in the rest of the world for many years. BTW, I never said they should be like BMW or MB or anyone else. I don't agree with everything they do either.
I'm only interested in talking about the US. I'm well aware of what BMW and MB are globally, but they are the ones who positioned themselves as a premium brand in the US and it has worked for them, just as Lexus was positioned as a premium brand in the US with the same car selling as a Toyota in the rest of the world for many years. BTW, I never said they should be like BMW or MB or anyone else. I don't agree with everything they do either.
http://jalopnik.com/bmw-plans-at-lea...els-1522164557
I used to think in the past that 4 cylinders and going downmarket might hurt a brand but so far it has not hurt BMW/Benz/Audi nor Lexus (CT). What I do think it does is open opportunities for maybe Jaguar, Maserati who are positioning their vehicles as "original" and for people that want to be different. Actually the entire marketing structure of the new Ghilbi is based on this, it is specifically for people that do not want to be seen in a 5 series everyone has.
It also gives even more reason to have an AMG/M/F/RS etc option so this can be leveraged. We all see those brands (particularly the Germans) expanding heavily. Not only do they provide a halo over your basic 4 cylinder luxury car, they are truly aspirational and they hope eventually that 4 cylinder buyer moves into those cars.
BTW, I find it stunning the (your) 550/750 has 440 or so hp. To think an E39 M5 had 400hp. My LS F-sport has 386hp yet your V-8 makes 1 MPG more overall.
05-11-14, 06:21 PM
#312
BMW's new 2 Series active tourer is now FWD. And more are coming
http://jalopnik.com/bmw-plans-at-lea...els-1522164557
I used to think in the past that 4 cylinders and going downmarket might hurt a brand but so far it has not hurt BMW/Benz/Audi nor Lexus (CT). What I do think it does is open opportunities for maybe Jaguar, Maserati who are positioning their vehicles as "original" and for people that want to be different. Actually the entire marketing structure of the new Ghilbi is based on this, it is specifically for people that do not want to be seen in a 5 series everyone has.
It also gives even more reason to have an AMG/M/F/RS etc option so this can be leveraged. We all see those brands (particularly the Germans) expanding heavily. Not only do they provide a halo over your basic 4 cylinder luxury car, they are truly aspirational and they hope eventually that 4 cylinder buyer moves into those cars.
BTW, I find it stunning the (your) 550/750 has 440 or so hp. To think an E39 M5 had 400hp. My LS F-sport has 386hp yet your V-8 makes 1 MPG more overall.
http://jalopnik.com/bmw-plans-at-lea...els-1522164557
I used to think in the past that 4 cylinders and going downmarket might hurt a brand but so far it has not hurt BMW/Benz/Audi nor Lexus (CT). What I do think it does is open opportunities for maybe Jaguar, Maserati who are positioning their vehicles as "original" and for people that want to be different. Actually the entire marketing structure of the new Ghilbi is based on this, it is specifically for people that do not want to be seen in a 5 series everyone has.
It also gives even more reason to have an AMG/M/F/RS etc option so this can be leveraged. We all see those brands (particularly the Germans) expanding heavily. Not only do they provide a halo over your basic 4 cylinder luxury car, they are truly aspirational and they hope eventually that 4 cylinder buyer moves into those cars.
BTW, I find it stunning the (your) 550/750 has 440 or so hp. To think an E39 M5 had 400hp. My LS F-sport has 386hp yet your V-8 makes 1 MPG more overall.
I have a close friend who goes for Jags and had a Quatroportte for exactly the reasons you state. Right now he has a S8 Audi, but he wants to go back to something a bit more exotic when he retires and his car does not stir up his business associates he has to deal with.
You point about the 550 engine is right on. I drove a 2014 LS460 a couple of weeks ago. Even my 400 hp 550 will leave it for dead. I'm sure Lexus will get with the engine program in the next couple of years.
05-11-14, 08:13 PM
#313
Lexus Test Driver
If all you see on the road are 4 cylinder BMWs with crappy engine notes and overpriced basic interiors, after a while the public perception is going to be that those horrid basement models are representative of the brand.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
Enthusiasts by definition are niche and only they fully appreciate and are cognizant of niche models like 550i. All the man in the street sees in the next few years will be 528 or even lower engine models flooding the streets. Right now brands like BMW are charging a premium for overpriced basic models based on goodwill built up over a century.
That goodwill gets eroded pretty fast when people sit in the German 4 banger with the basic interior that they just bought and which doesn't handle as well as they were led to believe and slowly come to the realization that they bought a badge and not much else.
05-11-14, 08:41 PM
#314
To GS200t or not, that is the question?
I guess it does increase sales.
I guess it does "devalue" the range at the same time.
After all, I wouldn't go for the GS200t myself.
So far, it's a ploy that does seem to be working for Benz and Beamer.
Who knows how it could adversely affect Benz and Beamer in the future?
Gasoline is dwindling in supply.
Emission standards becoming more and more stringent.
If gasoline skyrockets in price, then we'd all have to 4, or even 3 cylinder.
By then, the V6 would be a realm for the rich.
By then, the V8 would probably have been phased out.
The NX200t is just around the corner.
So I guess it's only a matter of time before there is a GS200t 2.0 in-line four turbo?
Personally, I'd like Lexus to make a 2.0 V6 turbo.
It's smoother.
I know it costs a bit, but it will also more easily differentiate a Toyota from a Lexus.
The intermediate future could actually lie in a four cylinder turbo petrol-electric hybrid.
The compact four would balance out the additional size and weight of the electric motors and batteries.
The electric motors with their linear torque characteristics would help to flatten the turbo's naturally boomy torque curve.
These hybrids will serve well until hydrogen powered internal combustion engines, and ultimately, hydrogen powered fuel cell battery powered electric motors come in, because the electric motor is more ideal than the internal combustion engine.
I guess it does increase sales.
I guess it does "devalue" the range at the same time.
After all, I wouldn't go for the GS200t myself.
So far, it's a ploy that does seem to be working for Benz and Beamer.
Who knows how it could adversely affect Benz and Beamer in the future?
Gasoline is dwindling in supply.
Emission standards becoming more and more stringent.
If gasoline skyrockets in price, then we'd all have to 4, or even 3 cylinder.
By then, the V6 would be a realm for the rich.
By then, the V8 would probably have been phased out.
The NX200t is just around the corner.
So I guess it's only a matter of time before there is a GS200t 2.0 in-line four turbo?
Personally, I'd like Lexus to make a 2.0 V6 turbo.
It's smoother.
I know it costs a bit, but it will also more easily differentiate a Toyota from a Lexus.
The intermediate future could actually lie in a four cylinder turbo petrol-electric hybrid.
The compact four would balance out the additional size and weight of the electric motors and batteries.
The electric motors with their linear torque characteristics would help to flatten the turbo's naturally boomy torque curve.
These hybrids will serve well until hydrogen powered internal combustion engines, and ultimately, hydrogen powered fuel cell battery powered electric motors come in, because the electric motor is more ideal than the internal combustion engine.
Last edited by peteharvey; 05-11-14 at 08:54 PM.
05-11-14, 09:14 PM
#315
Lexus Champion
