LexFather

I won't argue CTS V-sport vs GS F-sport as I have yet to drive the CTS but I haven't read any experts passing the title to the CTS yet. I'm certain its a great drive.

That said even if the GS is second to the CTS V-sport that is no bad place to be and what a different world we live in where the sportiest cars in the segment are from ;

Lexus
Cadillac



I can feel heads exploding

Sal Collaziano

Here's an expert review:

Yeah, I know where you're coming from. Imagine Lexus and Cadillac dethroning BMW. Though I'm reading here about the M-Sport - which I'm not sure would lose in the same comparison. We'll have to see. I have a feeling if it were a clear WIN for BMW, we'd already have seen the video...

keyframe13

What's not to get. If a car doesn;t sell to that level it means a lot of things. While doesn;t make it a failure it does mean that the car is not competitive enough for people to consider it, it's not popular enough, it's too bland, too expensive for what it offers, not too luxurious for the money, engines not fast enough, engines not fuel efficient enough, the competition it's better. Lots of factors goes into that.
If Germans are known for their unreliability and they still sell 5 times more than Lexus, I think Lexus should acknowledge they have a problem.
I cannot think of a car that was so good , or the best and not sell.
I do agree and think that the rebadge toyota ES hurts the sells but it's such a success that makes Lexus happy with that and hence why I think they don;t put much thought into the GS.. They are so happy with the way ES sells that they just left GS be..
Lexus it;s the newest brand and they don;t have the financial power the germans have, I think in years Lexus would compete but now they are too small.

jjscsix

First of all, you are simplifying the BMW comparison. Even a 528 with same equipment is like $8000 more than a GS350, and it is about as fast. Second, there are folks like me who will not buy A GS without more power (our GS is my wife's). There is a very strong chance I would have a GS for myself right now instead of my BMW if the GS was available with 400+ hp.

Sal Collaziano

That's a pretty good point. I do understand that the German makes have a lot more customers primarily because of their history of building UP so many customers. But it also goes to show that reliability isn't everything. Buicks are also very reliable but they're not exciting at all. Lexus certainly has a huge edge over Buick but I'm just using Buick as a reference because of reliability. When I owned my German vehicles, I didn't have many problems - but I didn't mind when I did because I got to try out a different BMW loaners (3-Series (I eventually bought a 335i as a result), 5-Series (I want another midsize right now as a result of those times I received one as a loaner), X5 - which my wife is now interested in.

Lexus has everything but performance right now. Yeah, there's an aging IS-F and a LFA that nobody can buy anymore. And an RC-F coming - but they need more new high performance versions of the vehicles they sell. A new IS-F, a GS-F and an LS that has enough power to keep up with the other premium full size luxury sedans.

jjscsix

This point gets discussed on the BMW motorcycle forum. I also have a BMW Motorcycle (my first BMW). I have had a problem with it that is almost unheard of on Japanese bikes. But the bike is clearly a more engaging bike than anything else in it's class that the owners on the forum agree that they simply are willing on living with the quality issues to own the bike and appreciate the good stuff.

The car business is not so cut and dried. I do like a lot of things about my BMW 550, but some of it's quirks drive me nuts on a daily basis. And I have had a quality problem that I would not have expected (all new injectors at about 24,000 miles). There are other cars that I will consider when my BMW lease comes up next spring - the GSF will be one if it is anywhere near available when my lease is up.

peteharvey

ES-GS Combo
Exactly.
Sales is a complex topic.
Because the E and 5 compete with not only the GS, but also the ES.
Likewise, you could also say the GS competes with not only the E and 5, but also their more upmarket variants like the CLS and 6 Series.
Thus we have a combined totals below.
The Lexiis do come up ahead.



(1) Notice how Lexus 2013 combo total only 92,000 units, versus 2007's effort of 106,000 units?
Thus, the current 2013 combo of ES+GS is weaker than the previous generation 2007 ES+GS combo. Why?

(2) Likewise, also notice how in 2007, the ES-GS attack combo almost doubled their German competitors?
However, by 2013, the Germans have made much ground, such that the 2013 ES-GS combo don't enjoy as big a lead as their predecessors back in 2007. Why?

a) In my opinion, I think this is possibly caused by the present 2013 ES-GS combo in being not quite as attractively styled as their previous counterparts. I don't think it's the space, because both ES and GS are larger; just the styling is not as good as last time around, especially the new ES isn't quite as good looking as the old 2007-13 ES. Just my opinion though.
b) Also Lexus lack of a entry level fuel efficient four cylinder turbo plays a role too.

(3) In the past, I have said that statistics show that the 4GS sells less than the 3GS in the USA, and that still stands [I can't change history], but that is a different topic altogether.



Goals
True.
A manufacturer cannot be trusted to set their own goals.
The goals must be set by an independent third party - if they are going to be of any real value.
Goals and sales targets are actually more complex than that, because short of goal doesn't necessarily mean failure, while achieving goals is not necessarily success.



Mass Public
Remember that sales is determined by the mass public.
Enthusiasts like you and I are only minority in numbers.
Unfortunately, the mass public generally does NOT know what an E63 AMG is. Nor do they know what an M5 is. Nor do they know what a GS-F is.



Name
True.
The mass public go for the name, badge, marque, history, reputation, prestige, cache etc, that sells.





Styling
After the name/badge/marque/history/prestige/cache, the styling would probably be the next biggest factor affecting sales.
The mass public judges a book by its cover!
Enthusiasts less so.

I'm not God, but in my opinion, it is actually styling like the photo above that is actually holding back 4GS sales.
Perhaps the face of the boot is too dead vertical? And it should be facing or raked more upwards, towards the eyes of the driving following behind?
And the spoiler like crease at the top of the boot lid should be deleted, to give a cleaner look? This top crease actually accentuates the negatively raked look, where the face of the boot faces the ground.
Note how the negative raking at the upper edge of the boot casts a "shadow" immediately below?





Note how the 4GS rear end doesn't look half as good as the front, or the side.
All very debatable, of course.

If Lexus makes the right adjustments to the 4.5GS in September 2015 next year, the 4.5GS could realize its potential.
The mass public will almost never say anything negative about the styling to the sales rep.



V8
Absolutely.
A V8 won't add much to the sales.
But it will keep jjscsix happy!

Incidentally, I just couldn't understand why Lexus kept putting the "detuned" version of the V8 into the 3GS460, while the LS got the full version with all the horsepower.
In any case, personally me myself, I never got the V8 version, because I just didn't enjoy the way the nose heavy V8 handled; turn in was so heavy-nosed and slow compared to the V6.
In-line fours tend to have the quickest turn-in, however V6's probably have the best balance in performance, handling, and smoothness overall...



IL4 Turbo
Offering an in-line four turbo for the GS and ES would certainly lift sales to both models.
The four cylinder turbo will certainly improve economy, and handling.
This is due to the dwindling supply of petroleum, as well as environmental concerns, both of which affect the price of fuel.

However, do keep in mind that it won't be as smooth, nor as durable.
The higher the turbo boost, the shorter the life span of the engine.



Handling
True.
The new Cadillac CTS V Sport is now arguably the new handling champ? Great for you and I.
However, at what expense to the ride and refinement???
Mechanics is generally a compromise.
You rob Peter, to give to Paul.
Just remember too, that outright g-force and track times does not necessarily mean fun; the Mazda MX-5 Miata is fun because it is light and quick to change directions [turn in] - the MX-5 does not have outright g-force, nor track times.

Unfortunately the mass public [who ultimately determine the sales], generally do NOT go for outright in-line power, nor handling champs.
The mass public actually goes for the entire package, especially beginning with the name! Then the styling.
The CTS is a nice package; attractively styled too.
The CTS does sell well, but when we compare sales to the GS, we must remember to add the ES factor!



ES-GS Combo
Back to the ES.
True, the ES is the GS's entry-level relative.

Historically and presently, combined total of ES and GS have the Lexiis well ahead in sales.
And just as well - considering their price.
So even Stevens overall.
However, Lexus should go for the "kill" - to settle the dispute for once and for all.
To get the kill, the Lexus ES-GS combo must outsell their competitors by a significantly greater margin than what they are doing now.

It's the same with the Lexus RX.
Well ahead on sales.
But so it should be...

flippd

I actually love the rear of the GS. It's one of the first things that I liked the most. The front grew on me slowly, but I wasn't the biggest fan at the start.

natnut

I wouldn't say that the CTS V sport outhandled the GS. Where it had the clear edge was in power and straight line acceleration-as it well should considering that the V sport is an 550i/E550 equivalent. Put a V8 or turbo V6 in the GS F-sport chassis and the outcome might well be different.

Regarding 535i M-sport versus GS350 F-sport : there's been several comparisons where the GS is both subjectively and objectively superior in sportiness, driving fun,cornering,slalom,road holding and canyon carving.

The 535 sells more on its badge, road isolation and bigger back seat and BMW's willingness to allow potential buyers to configure more options. And in this non-enthusiast driven market, such factors sadly sell more than pure driving fun.

Case in point : my uncle test drove both the 5 series and the GS and he admitted the GS was a better car in terms of dynamics and value. But in the end he chose to buy a 520i because he wanted a bigger back seat for a baby seat for his grandson ( he babysits for my cousin)and the 5 series was quieter and would disrupt the baby's sleep less. Tackling corners was the last thing on his mind ; he just wanted a prestigious baby trolley and the 5 series fit that description perfectly.( and he didn't want to pony up the cash for a 7 series/ LS 460. )

jjscsix

All I can speak for is why I switched from my 2010 GS to a BMW two years ago, and what it would take for me to buy a GS (or any Lexus for that matter) for myself. I don't agree with the marketing idea of offering a cheaper version. That goes against marketing 101 that says you don't want to devalue a premium brand by lowering the price to draw in too many customers. And that is why I pointed out above the fact that a BMW 528 is still a $50,000 plus car.

Offering a $40,000 GS is not necessarily a good thing in terms of long term marketing of the brand. Do you really want them becoming more of an Acura competitor, or a BMW competitor? They already have Toyota for going after the people who want a cheaper car.

Max707

Interesting assumptions. I think of BMW as a sporty, complex vehicle that if owned beyond the warranty is a expense and reliability nightmare. I think of MB as the GM of Europe, with a line of cheap Chevy's and top of the line Caddys that in other parts of the world are Cabs and Limos. In the USA the MB is a very expensive GM. I think a lot of people still think of MB as a vehicle that was built not to a price point but to a engineering objective. The MB I owned in the 80's was a bank vault, the Last MB I bought in 2008 not so much. Your point about not cheapening the GS with more engine options is BMW's market approach. You can buy a 3 or 5 series that has a $40k price difference with in the model range and the average consumer can not tell the cheapest one from the most expensive model. It's now even hard when you are driving down the road to tell a 3 series from a 5 series or even a 7 series. This is also true for MB. The new C class looks just like the new S class.

Sal Collaziano

It did in that video. It's visible and if you need me to show you where, let me know. Maybe you missed it.

It's really not a fair comparison but considering the GS handles so well, they kinda did it just for the hell of it. Lexus can surely have the GS F-Sport handle as well as the CTS V-Sport but ride quality (soft) would be sacrificed. As mentioned in other videos, the V-Sport suspension is a little too stiff for the average enthusiast. The V-Sport is for the enthusiast who wants a car that's close to a four door Corvette without being all out performance like the CTS-V.

I think the new 5-Series makes for a nice little 7-Series... Personally, I do like the quietness of my interior - which is one of the main reasons I own my Lexus vehicles - so I'd prefer the 5-Series in that regard - as well as the bigger back seat.

What's going to end up happening for me is I'm going to take both the 550i M-Sport and GS F-Sport for a test drive on my straight, flat, non-curvy Palm Beach roads and see which one feels better.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

that V Sport CTS is 75k loaded, more of a comparison with a GS-F if one ever comes out not a regular GS

Sal Collaziano

I can manage like $72k if I add options like carbon fiber stuff in the interior and special floor mats and other nonsense. In any event, it's already been noted that the CTS V-Sport and GS F-Sport is not a fair comparison.

LexFather

BMW's lease better than anything to drive sales, so your Marketing 101 example is really off here. They also are battling Benz intensely here for the #1 sales title and doing whatever it takes to sell cars. Are we talking about the same brand?

BMW has moved even more downmarket. They will begin to offer FWD cars. BMW's lease better than anything not Infiniti (mentioning MSRP means nothing, no one pays it). Your premise of "not offering a cheaper version" is BMWs strategy. In Europe you can get all sorts of base model 520 cars etc for example.

In America, we now have a 180hp base bare bones 320 to help spur sales and move "downmarket'. Mind you I stated a thread saying this was a BRILLIANT strategy to drive sales. You see its pretty obvious that badge power counts for more than we really thought and if a brand's research dictates going smaller (engine) with less features will drive sales, more power to them. It obviously works and there is a niche of people who could care less about performance, technology etc. They want to be associated with the brand.

Funny though, either you are oblivious to this or its just a problem if Lexus does it. As Max707 stated, they have done a great job fooling people into thinking all they sell are V-8s and M cars, as evidenced above.

Its funny when Lexus was #1 in sales all those years it was a problem and Lexus was over saturating the luxury market. Now that Lexus is not #1 (and is sportier) people are stating how important sales are over and over and ignoring cars becoming less sporty.

How the debate has changed to support bias.