peteharvey

Where did I say that the GS is a version of the Toyota Crown?
Where did I say that the Toyota Aristo was the Toyota Crown Aristo?
Where did I say that the Aristo/GS is part of the Crown family?
Please read carefully.

Basically, commenting on the 4GS competition - the CLS in Post #232, the CLS is a body style variation of the same basic platform and engines shared with the E Class sedan.
The Benz CLS body is supposed to be more sporty in styling than the E Class sedan.

In the same way, the Toyota Aristo shares platforms and engines with the Toyota Crown.
In the same way, the Toyota Aristo is supposed to be more sporty in styling than the Toyota Crown.
The Toyota Aristo is exported to the US under the Lexus GS name plate.

Toyota has actually been producing body style variations for many decades, back into the 1980's, even earlier.
However, in the old days, the body style variation was a "hardtop".
Typically, Toyota's hardtops had the following features:
1) slightly lower roofline,
2) frameless windows,
3) sportier suspension with firmer springs, dampers, roll bars, and slightly less travel to reduce body roll.
4) different sheet metal outside, and possibly inside too.

Have a look at the 1991-95 Toyota Corolla and Toyota Cera.
Notice how the Cera has a lower roofline, frameless and shallower windows, and the boot's cubic capacity probably smaller too:





Likewise, the 1996-01 Toyota Camry and Toyota Windom [nee Lexus ES300].
Notice the dark green ES300 below is wearing a Toyota badge on its bonnet?



Similarly, Honda would have a standard Civic, a sporty Integra, and a luxurious Concerto. The Integra and Concerto would run on a slightly longer wheelbase too.

Thus, in the old days, they had a sedan and hardtop version of the same platform and engines.
The roof line would be lowered, the windows frameless, the styling more sporty, and the suspension would be sportier to match.

However, these days, Toyota doesn't seem to make too many hardtops anymore. Possibly to achieve a better window seal?
Remember that a "real" hardtop, has no B pillar, such that the window seal is vulnerable.

Nowadays, they tend to make so called "four door coupes".
There is NO official hard and fast rule to define four door coupes.
Today, most like the Toyota Aristo [nee GS] have framed windows.
However, the overall concept of a body with sportier styling, a lower roof line, lower waist line, and sportier suspension - prevail.

Actually, in the old days, the hardtops didn't "seem" to come with lower waistlines. They merely shortened the A, B and C pillars.
Today, the four door coupes "tend" to actually have lower waistlines. Eg the 3GS pictured in Post #236 relative to the equivalent Toyota Crown.

In short, Toyota Motor Corp does have a long history of making multiple body styles of the same platform.
Spawning multiple body styles is not new to TMC.
Like the Benz E/CLS, the BM 5/6 Series, and Audi A6/A7, it would be nice if Lexus could come up with a 4 door coupe-type body style alternative to the 4GS sedan.

SWGS, do all these TMC body style variations, from the Cera, to Windom, to Aristo, traditional "hardtops", "four door coupes", frameless windows, lower rooflines, lower waistlines, sportier suspension with firmer spring/damper/roll bar rates, and shorter suspension travel - now make sense to you?



True, but that's not what I said.
I said the opposite.
In Post #236, I said that shorter suspension travel is more prone to bottoming out.
Which is also true.

SW17LS

I'm not going to comment on...the rest...because I has nothing to do with the topic...which is the 4GS.

BUT, I will reply to the idea that the CLS is a competitor to the GS, it's really not. The CLS is significantly more expensive than the GS, starting at $72k, bigger, etc. Personally, I think these 4 Door coupes are fads..They're niche cars that don't sell in volume, and that's just not something that Toyota is going to go through developing to sell 400 cars a month. It would be cool, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

LexFather

I think we are all aware Lexus doesn't have the cache of BMW or Benz to the general public. In survey results with the wealthy, Lexus ranks just as high though.

Also the general public buying cars based on cache is a catch 22 with enthusiasts. The 5 series might sell 4 times better but it's fluffy and less enthusiast oriented. An enthusiast looks past the brand cache here and acknowledges these things.

Again I think it very hypocritical how we are talking about everything but how the GS drives. That used to be the win all/be all arguement on the internet. Now that the GS is sportiest or arguably the sportiest people and critics have jumped to other merits it may lack.

It's hilarious. Lexus got critiqued harshly for not being sporty and now that it is sportiest it's now ignored and glossed over.



FYI the 6.3 is being phased out. The new cars badged 63 are actually 5.5 turbo units.

Sal Collaziano

No, I went on a vacation last week but my wife has a service appointment tomorrow so I might get a test drive then...

I don't think it's a four door coupe either.

Certainly.

I'm not sure why you're not seeing the new CTS in your area but theres a lot of them driving around in Florida - but not that many V-Sports. The reason the CTS isn't selling in massive quantities is price. This new generation received a huge price bump as the car has improved quite a bit but people still remember this as the entry-level Cadillac just a couple of years ago. This is the only reason the CTS is selling slow because it's a heck of a lot more car than the previous generation.

The V-Sport isn't going to sell much compared to the regular V6 and 4 cylinder. Think about how many 528i's or E350's you see compared to 550i's or E550's...

They're two very different cars...

Like the E55 AMG - much better now with forced induction. So easy to tune for extreme amounts of power.

Max707

I owned a CLS63 AMG and have driven the new GS350 and I liked the driving experience of the new GS350 better then the CLS.

natnut

I'l be honest.

Currently Lexus is effectively selling the GS based on ONE mid-ranged engine choice the 3.5L 2GR-FSE.

Compared to the Germans:

MB : E250 Bluetec, E350 and E550
BMW : 528i,535i,550i
Audi : A6 2.0T ,A6 3.0T and S6(effectively A6 4.0T)
Caddy CTS 2.0T. CTS 3.6L NA, CTS V-Sport 3.6L Turbo

If Lexus puts the 2.0L Turbo from the new NX into the GS to act as entry level GS (and volume seller) and a V8 equivalent engine as range-topping (but not full fledged GS-F) GS, a prospective mid-size luxury sports saloon buyer will have more choices when he considers Lexus ie : GS200T, GS350, GS400T

Also Lexus needs to offer AWD option for all engine choices and not just the GS350.

The range-topping non-F GS need not be an actual V8 but a V8 equivalent like the CTS V-Sport which has a turbo 3.6L V6 but which challenges the E550 and 550i in straightline acceleration.

Do all that and I suspect sales of the GS might increase by 25-50%.

Tom450

Why is everybody ignoring the GS450h? Here is your hp boost plus fuel economy. Who says we have only one engine choice?

jjscsix

Too expensive, the hp increase is offset by weight increase, trunk is tiny….

1111GS

You are right on and I think some facts are just not swallowable for some folks. There will always be something to complain about unfortunately.
GS being compared to these German is already a huge success on Lexus' part IMO.

peteharvey

Officially, they're all just sedans.
They don't have special classifications for so called "hardtops", and "four door coupes" etc.
Many would even say there is no such thing as a four door coupe.
These are more or less descriptive terms only, so I wouldn't get too tied up in this.

However, the one platform still spawned body style variations like:
1) the Toyota Corolla, and the Toyota Cera,
2) the Toyota Camry, and the Toyota Windom [nee Lexus ES],
3) the Toyota Aristo [nee Lexus GS], and the Toyota Crown Series,
4) the Honda Civic, and the Integra and Concerto,
5) the BMW 5 Series, and the BMW 6 Series,
6) the Benz E Class, and the Benz CLS,
7) the Audi A6, and the Audi A7, etc etc etc...



The CLS etc is certainly not a direct competitor to the GS at all.
It's just something someone else brought up on Post #232.

These body style variation models, apart from being sleeker, lower roofline, frameless windows [in the old days], possibly lower waistline and lower ground clearance, and often sportier suspension tune, these body style variations are also:

1) Often the same wheelbase, while being longer in overall length, especially a longer front overhang, to achieve slimmer headlamps,
For example, the 2002-09 E Class has the exact same 112.4" wheelbase as the CLS, but the CLS has a longer front overhang to achieve slimmer headlights, etc.
The Integra and Concerto have slightly longer wheelbases than the Civic.
The 2012 Crown Series @ 112.6" has a 0.4" [nee 10 mm] longer wheelbase than the GS @ 112.2"; in the past, they normally have the same wheelbase.

2) More upmarket in price.
For example, all the body style variations eg Cera, Windom, Integra, Concerto, CLS, 6 Series, and A7 etc listed above carry more expensive price tags.



Absolutely.
These body style variations don't sell in huge volumes.
For example, the E Class sold nearly 70K units last year, but the CLS only sold near 8K units.
Likewise, 5 Series @ 57K units, while 6 Series only 10K units.


So we are all familiar with the effect of engine choices on sales.
Outlined above would be a rough indication of the effects of different body style choices on sales...

rogers2

After reading the entire thread I think there has been some great post on why the GS isn’t selling well. Truthfully I think it’s a combination of reasons why the car isn’t selling. A little maybe style, prestige, engine choices or lastly price. People buy cars for a number of different reasons. For example just last night my dad ask my advice on purchasing an older S class Mercedes. I told him to forget the S class and purchase Lexus ES or LS for reliability. The first thing he said was that he doesn’t want a Toyota. Immediately I told him more about Lexus and how far they have come but some people will never change.

peteharvey

You have identified all the key points in bold.
Rather than car enthusiasts, it is actually the mass public that determine the sales.

The question now is what is the mass public buyer's order of priority, or at least the top five areas of concern?
I think it is:
1) name/badge/history/reputation/prestige/marque/cache
2) styling - the mass public really judges a book by its cover!
3) space - the public only has to sit in the back seat in the showroom, to immediately make comments about squeezy rear foot room.
4) engine, performance, economy etc - the mass public easily discerns a lack of bottom end torque; the mass public don't notice the top end torque as much.
5) handling

What do you consider to be the mass public's top five priorities in choosing a luxury car, and in what order?



That's why I think the number one factor for the mass public is the name/badge/history/reputation/prestige/marque/cache/pizazz; call it whatever you like.
A car's overall quality makes a history/reputation/name etc for itself.



A "pioneer" is defined as someone who is first, or among the first to do something.

Historically, there have been pioneers who have managed to stay on top most of the times.
For example, Carl Benz, G. Daimler, and Mercedes-Benz.
Lexus' own RX has managed to stay on top the whole time.
Over a period, the Lexus' own ES was at the top.
Likewise, with PC's, desktops and laptops, Microsoft has so far managed to stay on top pretty much the whole time.
Canon and Nikon, the so called two big boys have been unpenetrable; just ask Sony who produces most of the world's CMOS sensors, and who bought out Minolta and Konica to move into dSLR's, but have now switched their focus to mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras MILC's, and Sony has recently purchased 11.4% of Olympus to be their main shareholder.

Historically, there have also been pioneers who have been surpassed; the have come and gone.
Acura RL/Legends came, and they went.
For example, with mobiles, Motorola pioneered with the first mass produced phone.
By about 2000, Nokia controlled the market.
By about 2005, Blackberry controlled.
By 2008, the iPhone controlled.
Presently, Samsung controls the market.
Formula 1? Leaders in engines have come and gone. Presently it's Benz?


Invincibility?
In the paragraph above, look at the number of marques who have come and gone?
In this competitive market, no one is invincible.
It is important to realize that Benz and Beamer have managed to stay on top through intelligence and hard work.
If Benz and Beamer sat on their backsides, Lexus would have trumped them years ago.
Thus, Benz and BM are beatable.
The GS does have the potential to become class leader!
However, the E Class and 5 Series aren't just gonna hand the trophy over to the GS; the GS must fight for it. The GS must earn it.

It all boils down to hard work.
The all new Benz C Class not only has a turbocharged range, but their chassis is almost 50% aluminium for 100 kg/ 225 lbs less weight! How's that for innovation?
Imagine the impact of 225 lbs less weight on acceleration, braking, agility, terminal grip, and economy?
The next generation E Class due roughly 2016 will be based on the same platform as the all new C Class.


Back to the 4GS.
The overall quality of the product determines the history, the reputation, the marque, the badge, and the name.
Sales success is achievable.
The 4GS has almost all the ingredients for sales success.
Some say it also needs to have style. The public is very sensitive to style.

Face to face, the mass public will not voice too many negative things to the sales rep on test drive, and that's why anonymous feedback is essential.
Lexus must survey the mass public to determine the strengths and weaknesses of the 4GS.
Lexus cannot afford to ignore the 4GS weaknesses, and hide the weaknesses beneath the carpet.
After all, Lexus' motto is "The Pursuit of Perfection".
Lexus never said their cars were perfect.
Lexus merely said that they are in pursuit of perfection.
Btw, a car doesn't have to be perfect to be purchased, nor does a car need to be perfect for the owner to be happy, but perfection, or close to it - is nice.

If it is not exactly styling, then it will be something else that it is in need of?
The 4GS is almost there.
It is Acura, Infiniti, Jaguar, and the like, who have a lot of ground to cover...

Sal Collaziano

That would be awesome and I'd put money on the 400+ hp V6 GS out-handling the BMW and Mercedes. I'd be overjoyed to pay $65k-$70k for a 400+hp/400+ft.tq. V6 Lexus GS.

Eh. You're one tenth faster to 60mph in the GSh... The previous generation V8 did 0-60 in 5.4 seconds and I figured the new generation would find a way to beat that but it got slower instead. Sure, it handles much better but I don't have any twisty roads - so those like me can't truly appreciate that benefit with the loss of power.

SW17LS

Again though...just to be sure this doesn't get lost...the car is selling pretty much in line with what Lexus expected of it. Its not that the car is "not selling"

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

That's similar to what I said on page 2 of this thread



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BTW guys, 17 pages and OP GSCT has not come back. We just got trolled