dseag2

No anger here. I think we Lexus owners all acknowledge that MB and BMW have been around as luxury brands much longer than Lexus, and there is a cache to owning a German car. Brand awareness and cache are big factors in the buying decision.

ming15237

iTrader: (3)

Spell check and grammar checkers are free on the net, you seriously may want to consider using them before posting again...

jjscsix

I would argue that Lexus had that same cache for a while, then let it slip away by being too conservative while BMW & M-B regrouped and upped their game.

SW17LS

I don't think GS sales have anything to do with Lexus' brand cache. There certainly is a difference between Lexus and MB or BMW, but if that were the single overriding factor then Lexus would not outsell them in certain models...such as the RX...ES...

Sal Collaziano

The best performing and handling car in the segment, today, is the Cadillac CTS V-Sport (I'm not referring to the CTS-V here) and I REALLY wish Lexus had either a twin turbo or V8 option. I had the same exact complaint about Cadillac until the V-Sport was released. I really wonder what the GS-F will be like - but like with Cadillac, it would be nice to have something slot in between the V6 GS and V8 GS-F. Cadillac enthusiasts complained about this for YEARS. It'll probably happen in this community as well.

All in all, the interior and exterior of the GS has me leaning away from Cadillac. That along with service and reliability... The GS is almost perfect for me - probably "good enough".

SW17LS

Have you gotten to drive the GS yet Sal?

Max707

Perception is a individual thing. If you have owned and researched these 3 brands then you know that you never own Mercedes or BMW if it is not under warranty. Also BMW and Mercedes sell a ton of the 3 series and C class vehicles no cache in these vehicles. I see Lexus as luxury and reliability. Mercedes has AMG, BMW has M class, Lexus F. Lexus is not really competing at this level. I owned a new CLS63 AMG with the performance package MSRP was high $120k's, Lexus does not make vehicles to compete with this vehicle. They are trying to compete with the M3.

SW17LS

A C Class or 3 Series is all about cache. People are buying those vehicles because they can buy into the brand for a certain cost.

peteharvey

The Benz CLS63 AMG is a hotted up version of the base E Class sedan.

The CLS is actually a four door coupe version of the E Class sedan platform.
The four door coupe features a rounded shape, a low roof line and waist line, and therefore less vertical space for the mudguards, hence less wheel travel for less body roll.

Lexus used to have the 2005-12 3GS which was a four door coupe version of the Toyota Crown sedan platform which was not available for export.
Nowadays, the 4GS is a tall boxy sedan with plenty of suspension travel.

Lexus also does not have an equivalent for the 6.3 engine and AMG suspension; not at the moment anyway.

Presently, the Lexus IS-F is the competitor to the BMW M3, and the Benz C63 AMG.

The CLS63 AMG, and Lexus' lack of a four door coupe body style with a V8, is more an issue of lack of body styles, lack of engine choices, and lack of hard edged suspension tunes, rather than a lack of cache.


The mass public don't know much about cars, so they are guided by the name, the badge, and the historical reputation of the name/badge/marque.
Benz and Beamer have the two biggest names/badges.
Lexus has a badge too, although maybe third or fourth place, arguably ahead of, or behind Audi.

Jaguar had a great name in the 1970's and 80's, however their reputation has fallen behind over the decades, as the overall quality of their products fell, especially under Ford ownership from 1989 to 2007....

SW17LS

I wouldn't consider the 3GS a 4 door coupe. If you look at a 3GS and then a CLS or a VW CC the difference in the interior layout and roofline are very apparent. The 4GS is also basically the same height as the 3GS, being in fact .8" taller.

peteharvey

A 4 door coupe "tends" to have the following features:
1) Rounded/swoopier roof line for less wind resistance, at the expense of interior space.
2) Lower roof line for lower CdA to lower the wind resistance, also at the expense of interior space.
3) Lower waist line, at the expense of less boot volume, and shorter space for wheel travel, hence ride quality.
4) Lower ground clearance for a lower center of gravity for less roll, but at the expense of wheel travel for ride quality.
5) Therefore concomitantly shorter suspension travel for less roll, but also at the expense of ride quality.
However there is absolutely no exact hard and fast rules for classification at all. It's just an arbitrary thing.

Thus, the 3GS is only 1.8" lower than the 2008-12 Toyota Crown counterpart running off the same platform and engines.
It's not so much that the 3GS is only 0.8" lower than the 4GS, but the 2005-12 3GS at 56.1" versus the 2008-12 Crown's 57.9".





I wouldn't call the new 4GS a four door coupe version of the new 2012-onwards Crown at all, but the 4GS is 57.3" versus the new Crown's 58.9", so they are always making the GS a little sportier, while the Crown more luxurious.








Interestingly, the 2012 4GS is only available in 2.5 and 3.5 etc in the USA, but the equivalent new 2012 Crown is available in 2.5, 3.5, and 4.6 V8 in Japan.

You will find that the 3GS has much less vertical cabin height than the 4GS; the 3GS interior feels low.
The 3GS canopy is much swoopier than the 4GS leading to less volume inside.
The 3GS waist line is also much lower.
The 3GS boot deck is lower, and there is much less vertical space inside the boot.
The 3GS boot volume is only 400 something liters, while the 4GS boot volume is 500+ liters.
Perhaps importantly, the 3GS has shorter suspension travel than the 4GS, such that the 3GS is more prone to bottoming out.

Because there are no hard and fast rules as to what defines a four door coupe, you could call the 3GS either way.
However, I tend to call it a four door coupe because it is so low, rounded, and has short suspension travel, especially compared to the new 4GS.

Certainly, the Benz CLS and VW CC have both lowered their roof line much more than the 3GS, and the CLS only has 4 seats too!
Benz, VW, BMW 5 vs 6 Series, and Audi A6 vs A7, can all afford to lower their 4 door coupes much more because they have two separate body styles.
Toyota Motor Corp has two separate bodies styles too, but they choose to only export one type of body style in the GS...

SW17LS

Lets just put it this way...the one and only time I've ever heard anybody refer to the 3GS as a "4 door coupe" is you here right now.

Do you have some sort of source on this "shorter suspension travel" thing? Also...first time I've ever heard anything to that point. I've never heard of someone classifying the body style of a vehicle by the amount of suspension travel. FYI, the fact that something bottoms out doesn't mean necessarily that it has less suspension travel. The 4GS is stiffer as a structure and has stiffer springs.

peteharvey

Yes, but that doesn't stop me from giving my opinion, just as you give your opinion.
If you know more about Toyota's domestic range of Crowns, you will understand how the GS design fits in.
Many years ago, the GS was sold as a Toyota "Aristo", alongside the Toyota Crown.
The Aristo was sports-luxury, while the Crown is outright luxury.


If you test drive the 3GS back to back against the 4GS, and you're good with motor cars, you will notice that the 3GS has shorter suspension travel than the 4GS.

When the waist line drops, the space available for wheel travel on compression also diminishes.
Because 4 dr coupes are low on the roof, and low on the waist line, and maybe even lower on the ground clearance, they will tend to have less wheel travel.
It all fits together as a package.

BTW, is this also the first time you've seen a 2012-onwards Toyota Crown, based on the same platform and engine as the 4GS?


I never said that if something bottoms out, then that means that it automatically has less suspension travel.
If you read the sentence carefully, the sentence says that it is "more prone" to bottoming out.

SW17LS

Okay.

Of course not, I'm well aware of the existence of the Toyota Crown, and that both it and the GS share Toyota's S platform. To be clear though, the GS is not a "version of the Toyota Crown". They are simply based off the same platform...note before Lexus was sold in Japan the GS was sold there as the Toyota Aristo...not the "Crown Aristo". Toyota had the Crown, Crown Royal, Crown Athlete...they never intended the Aristo/GS to be considered part of the Crown family.

My point was that just because something is more prone to bottoming out doesn't mean that it has less suspension travel.

dseag2

And that once again speaks to brand cache. The new CTS V-Sport is arguably the best luxury/sports sedan on the market today, yet they don't seem to be selling. I have yet to see a new CTS on the road, much less a CTS V-Sport, and the local dealership has tons of both in inventory. I know the CUE system has been panned, and some of the interior materials have been reviewed as not befitting of a luxury car, but the CTS is a competitive car, yet very few people seem to be buying it.