If the GS is so good, why are sales low?
04-11-14, 12:02 PM
#31
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But "where is" Lexus? They're selling better than ever...they may not appeal to you, but they appeal to nearly 300,000 people every year. When you say "put them where they are" you imply failure when in fact what we have is huge success,
Acura does not have any level of success as a brand. VERY different.
I have three coworkers that had BMW 5 series, they all had reliability problems...I told them all to get a Lexus. They all got ES350s...and none of them understood why I was surprised they had chosen the ES, or why I considered that a "downgrade". They aren't enthusiast buyers, most people aren't. Their BMW 5 series were transportation, and their Lexus ES are transportation. One of these was a late 50s woman, one an early 60s man, and one a mid 50s man. All three MUCH prefer their ESs.
Two of the three didn't even know that the 5 Series is RWD and the ES is FWD. One thought that was great because it would be better in the snow. Their low end 5 series were in the mid/upper $40ks, their loaded ES350s were in the mid/upper $40ks. To them...even swap. They didn't even know there was such a thing as a GS.
These buyers aren't even shown the GS in a Lexus showroom...they are directed right towards an ES. In a BMW or MB showroom they are sold 5's and E's because the 3's and C's are too small.
As for the GS, the GS and IS are built on the same platform. The GS and IS both sell on target and well here and elsewhere. The GS isn't going anywhere.
Acura does not have any level of success as a brand. VERY different.
I have three coworkers that had BMW 5 series, they all had reliability problems...I told them all to get a Lexus. They all got ES350s...and none of them understood why I was surprised they had chosen the ES, or why I considered that a "downgrade". They aren't enthusiast buyers, most people aren't. Their BMW 5 series were transportation, and their Lexus ES are transportation. One of these was a late 50s woman, one an early 60s man, and one a mid 50s man. All three MUCH prefer their ESs.
Two of the three didn't even know that the 5 Series is RWD and the ES is FWD. One thought that was great because it would be better in the snow. Their low end 5 series were in the mid/upper $40ks, their loaded ES350s were in the mid/upper $40ks. To them...even swap. They didn't even know there was such a thing as a GS.
These buyers aren't even shown the GS in a Lexus showroom...they are directed right towards an ES. In a BMW or MB showroom they are sold 5's and E's because the 3's and C's are too small.
As for the GS, the GS and IS are built on the same platform. The GS and IS both sell on target and well here and elsewhere. The GS isn't going anywhere.
04-11-14, 12:03 PM
#32
Yeah, it's problematic at best. They've gone from oatmeal bland to…medium weird without a stop. The looks of my GS have grown on me tremendously, but it really is too aggressive for the mass audience. They should hire the Italians.
04-11-14, 12:16 PM
#33
LOL, I'm knocking on door #50 myself. But I would not buy another manual car again. It's not like it was when I was learning to drive, 3 speed auto or 5 speed manny. Today there is no point to rowing the gears yourself, 6 7 8 or 9 speed automatics do a better job for fuel economy and acceleration.
04-11-14, 12:35 PM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
I think their designers are doing just fine. They've said all along, its not going to be for everybody and they're okay with that. If the styling isn't for you, plenty of other cars you can buy.
Haha, nothing against you mid 50's guys! Just offering demographics of these three specific people.
Haha, nothing against you mid 50's guys! Just offering demographics of these three specific people.
04-11-14, 12:54 PM
#35
But "where is" Lexus? They're selling better than ever...they may not appeal to you, but they appeal to nearly 300,000 people every year. When you say "put them where they are" you imply failure when in fact what we have is huge success,
Acura does not have any level of success as a brand. VERY different.
I have three coworkers that had BMW 5 series, they all had reliability problems...I told them all to get a Lexus. They all got ES350s...and none of them understood why I was surprised they had chosen the ES, or why I considered that a "downgrade". They aren't enthusiast buyers, most people aren't. Their BMW 5 series were transportation, and their Lexus ES are transportation. One of these was a late 50s woman, one an early 60s man, and one a mid 50s man. All three MUCH prefer their ESs.
Two of the three didn't even know that the 5 Series is RWD and the ES is FWD. One thought that was great because it would be better in the snow. Their low end 5 series were in the mid/upper $40ks, their loaded ES350s were in the mid/upper $40ks. To them...even swap. They didn't even know there was such a thing as a GS.
These buyers aren't even shown the GS in a Lexus showroom...they are directed right towards an ES. In a BMW or MB showroom they are sold 5's and E's because the 3's and C's are too small.
As for the GS, the GS and IS are built on the same platform. The GS and IS both sell on target and well here and elsewhere. The GS isn't going anywhere.
Acura does not have any level of success as a brand. VERY different.
I have three coworkers that had BMW 5 series, they all had reliability problems...I told them all to get a Lexus. They all got ES350s...and none of them understood why I was surprised they had chosen the ES, or why I considered that a "downgrade". They aren't enthusiast buyers, most people aren't. Their BMW 5 series were transportation, and their Lexus ES are transportation. One of these was a late 50s woman, one an early 60s man, and one a mid 50s man. All three MUCH prefer their ESs.
Two of the three didn't even know that the 5 Series is RWD and the ES is FWD. One thought that was great because it would be better in the snow. Their low end 5 series were in the mid/upper $40ks, their loaded ES350s were in the mid/upper $40ks. To them...even swap. They didn't even know there was such a thing as a GS.
These buyers aren't even shown the GS in a Lexus showroom...they are directed right towards an ES. In a BMW or MB showroom they are sold 5's and E's because the 3's and C's are too small.
As for the GS, the GS and IS are built on the same platform. The GS and IS both sell on target and well here and elsewhere. The GS isn't going anywhere.
Yes, people traded BMW 5's for ES's. Read my post again. What I said is that people trade down for different reasons. If you don't think an Acura is in the same class as a Lexus, then how can you think an ES is in the same class as a 5 series? As I said, just because someone trades one for the other doesn't make them in the same class. We just traded a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD for our GS. Does that make them same class competitors?
Acura damn sure did have success as a brand in the late 80s and early 90s. I've been a huge car nut since the mid 60's. I saw it and it was real. If you don't believe me, take a look at this from Wikipedia….
In 1987, Acura's first full year of sales, they sold 109,000 cars with the flagship Legend sedan accounting for 55,000 sales and the rest were of the smaller Integra. By 1990, Acura was selling 138,000 vehicles, including 54,000 Legends, compared to Mercedes-Benz's 78,000 cars and 64,000 each for BMW and Lexus.[4]
Last edited by jjscsix; 04-11-14 at 01:02 PM.
04-11-14, 01:47 PM
#36
Lexus Test Driver
I have owned a number of Japanese cars, and my BMW 550 is my first German. First a disclaimer, the main reason I got a BMW is because they offer a 400 hp engine and Lexus did not (I had a 2010 GS before the BMW). So here my opinion on the reasons why…
>BMW (and other Germans) have a "snob" appeal that many folks are looking for.
>The Germans cover a lot more ground with the same car. A 5 series starts with a 240 hp 4 cylinder (that feels as fast as a GS btw), 300 hp 6, 445 hp V8, Diesel, and 560 hp M. They also offer a very wide range of options and features that are not available on a GS AND you can actually order one the way you want it.
>The biggest reason IMHO is that Lexus and Acura both came out of the gate with a bang 25 years ago and were very well received. I know some wealthy folks who traded S Class M-Bs and 7 series BMW's for Lexus LS400s. But sadly, the Japanese became very conservative and complacent - like a basketball team with a 10 point lead comes out after half time and forgets that the opponent regrouped. The LS460 has been sitting on 380 hp for years, the GS on 303/306 hp for years, and they have been very conservative in styling and coming out with variations as pointed out above.
Lexus and Acura build fine cars, but not terribly interesting cars and they are now having to go through the process of reversing a perception - which takes time.
>BMW (and other Germans) have a "snob" appeal that many folks are looking for.
>The Germans cover a lot more ground with the same car. A 5 series starts with a 240 hp 4 cylinder (that feels as fast as a GS btw), 300 hp 6, 445 hp V8, Diesel, and 560 hp M. They also offer a very wide range of options and features that are not available on a GS AND you can actually order one the way you want it.
>The biggest reason IMHO is that Lexus and Acura both came out of the gate with a bang 25 years ago and were very well received. I know some wealthy folks who traded S Class M-Bs and 7 series BMW's for Lexus LS400s. But sadly, the Japanese became very conservative and complacent - like a basketball team with a 10 point lead comes out after half time and forgets that the opponent regrouped. The LS460 has been sitting on 380 hp for years, the GS on 303/306 hp for years, and they have been very conservative in styling and coming out with variations as pointed out above.
Lexus and Acura build fine cars, but not terribly interesting cars and they are now having to go through the process of reversing a perception - which takes time.
I think Lexus is doing a poor decision also not to bring IS300h in US or put that engine on a GS.
IMO also GS was always bald and they don;t offer many options the germans do.
At that price tag you need to impress with things you cannot find in an IS or ES.
04-11-14, 06:45 PM
#37
Lexus Champion
I was always under the impression once done with school I would own a BMW or Audi, that was purely based on aesthetics, as the performance was inferred. Their respective badges meant something to me, so I thought. But in late 2011 I caught wind of the GS F sport. I was kind of hooked. I still remember awaiting and watching the Super Bowl commercial, and when I saw it, told my wife that was it. We had a wedding planned for May 2012, so it wasnt a great time to make such a purchase according to my wife. A month and a half later, I surprised her after lunch with a Sunday trip to Lexus. I won that battle.
And my car's exterior reflects some of my past obsessions with the German aesthetics. But I have the reliability of the Toyota brand, and a car that has proven itself against the competition. An all around beauty that you don't see all over the road like the 5 series, E350 and less commonly the A6.. And with the direction of Lexus, particularly the "F," I am glad to have found a home. And has anyone seen the Lexus ad blitz on NFL network lately? Exactly as you mention above Hoovey, targeting to the "younger" crowd.
And my car's exterior reflects some of my past obsessions with the German aesthetics. But I have the reliability of the Toyota brand, and a car that has proven itself against the competition. An all around beauty that you don't see all over the road like the 5 series, E350 and less commonly the A6.. And with the direction of Lexus, particularly the "F," I am glad to have found a home. And has anyone seen the Lexus ad blitz on NFL network lately? Exactly as you mention above Hoovey, targeting to the "younger" crowd.
I always thought I wanted a BMW because they were the ultimate "Yuppie" cars in the 80's. When I was finally old enough to buy one, I bought an '01 330ci Coupe. The car was fun to drive and sweet looking, but things like the screeching radio that turned up automatically as speed increased (salesman discouraged me from getting Harmon Kardon), door switches on the console and a spoiler that fell off the car while driving made me trade it after 8 months. I traded it for a GS300 that I kept for some time. Since then, I've owned an Audi A5 and 2 Audi S5 Cabriolets, but I went back to Lexus because of the GS F Sport. I am totally satisfied knowing I have tried the German brands and am driving a car that betters them in many respects (like actually more fun to drive) and will still have that great Lexus reliability.
04-11-14, 06:51 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
04-11-14, 07:37 PM
#39
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Woo hoo!
04-11-14, 07:54 PM
#41
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I guess everyone missed the post that the GS never sold better worldwide last year?
I'm not sure how else to say it but the GS not any other car is going to sell like a 5 or E. So just stop giving the GS this ridiculous comparison. The GS is not a volume car and Lexus has an ES in the USA that changes things compared to the Germans here.
The 5 and E are crucial to those brands success. They are bread and butter. Would Lexus like to see 200,000 worldwide? I'm sure but it would take serious changes that I don't see happening anytime soon.
My take is that the advertising and marketing could also be a lot better. There needs to be more awareness of this car since most that have tried it seek to love it.
The other issue is you have salespeople that just defer to an ES to sell and not the GS. Sure many have heard "oh the ES is bigger and Cheaper". To most people that rings a bell in the head.
We have had this kind is thread for over decade lol.
Lexus and Acura should never be mentioned in the same breathe. Apples to oranges. Acura is also pretty much an America brand with a Japanese badge.
Acura can't figure out how to sell one sedan lol.
I'm not sure how else to say it but the GS not any other car is going to sell like a 5 or E. So just stop giving the GS this ridiculous comparison. The GS is not a volume car and Lexus has an ES in the USA that changes things compared to the Germans here.
The 5 and E are crucial to those brands success. They are bread and butter. Would Lexus like to see 200,000 worldwide? I'm sure but it would take serious changes that I don't see happening anytime soon.
My take is that the advertising and marketing could also be a lot better. There needs to be more awareness of this car since most that have tried it seek to love it.
The other issue is you have salespeople that just defer to an ES to sell and not the GS. Sure many have heard "oh the ES is bigger and Cheaper". To most people that rings a bell in the head.
We have had this kind is thread for over decade lol.
Acura can't figure out how to sell one sedan lol.
04-11-14, 09:32 PM
#42
Very well said. I always thought I wanted a BMW because they were the ultimate "Yuppie" cars in the 80's. When I was finally old enough to buy one, I bought an '01 330ci Coupe. The car was fun to drive and sweet looking, but things like the screeching radio that turned up automatically as speed increased (salesman discouraged me from getting Harmon Kardon), door switches on the console and a spoiler that fell off the car while driving made me trade it after 8 months. I traded it for a GS300 that I kept for some time. Since then, I've owned an Audi A5 and 2 Audi S5 Cabriolets, but I went back to Lexus because of the GS F Sport. I am totally satisfied knowing I have tried the German brands and am driving a car that betters them in many respects (like actually more fun to drive) and will still have that great Lexus reliability.
I always thought I wanted a BMW because they were the ultimate "Yuppie" cars in the 80's. When I was finally old enough to buy one, I bought an '01 330ci Coupe. The car was fun to drive and sweet looking, but things like the screeching radio that turned up automatically as speed increased (salesman discouraged me from getting Harmon Kardon), door switches on the console and a spoiler that fell off the car while driving made me trade it after 8 months. I traded it for a GS300 that I kept for some time. Since then, I've owned an Audi A5 and 2 Audi S5 Cabriolets, but I went back to Lexus because of the GS F Sport. I am totally satisfied knowing I have tried the German brands and am driving a car that betters them in many respects (like actually more fun to drive) and will still have that great Lexus reliability., but if lucky enough I have years of owning cars ahead. I do know my next car will be a Lexus as well. After that...well that's a topic for the next decade.
04-12-14, 05:43 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, people traded BMW 5's for ES's. Read my post again. What I said is that people trade down for different reasons. If you don't think an Acura is in the same class as a Lexus, then how can you think an ES is in the same class as a 5 series? As I said, just because someone trades one for the other doesn't make them in the same class. We just traded a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD for our GS. Does that make them same class competitors?
Acura damn sure did have success as a brand in the late 80s and early 90s. I've been a huge car nut since the mid 60's. I saw it and it was real. If you don't believe me, take a look at this from Wikipedia….
At that price tag you need to impress with things you cannot find in an IS or ES.
What technology do the Germans have in a typical build the GS doesn't have? Nothing. True, you can get more...but the 5 series or E the typical buyer buys off the lot actually has less tech features than the typical GS.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-12-14 at 06:20 PM.
04-12-14, 07:01 PM
#44
Your sig says you have a Lexus, not that it's a GS.
You're misunderstanding me. I am not talking about me, *i* know the ES and the 5 are not comparable cars. I'm telling you what these three people I know did and think. They do not believe they traded down, they believe they made a lateral move from their 5 Series to the ES. To them their low end 5 Series cost about what their higher optioned ES's cost, so to them they feel like they bought a similar car just from Lexus. Im not saying they are right, I'm just relaying their belief. My point is these people are not enthusiasts, they bought the 5 Series because it's a mid sized BMW...and to them the ES is similar. That's why the GS doesn't sell at the same volume, because non enthusiast buyers (most) buy the ES. If the ES didn't exist, GS sales would be far stronger.
Acura absolutely had success...with the Legend and the Integra. The brand as a whole isn't nearly as successful as Lexus, they made a lot of poor choices along the way and now they're a very disappointing marque IMHO.
All you have to do is sit in and drive the GS to see what you cannot find in an IS or ES. I came from the ES, and the GS is better in every way but rear space. Much better interior, much better chassis, driving dynamics, performance. The IS is smaller, less sophisticated feeling.
What technology do the Germans have in a typical build the GS doesn't have? Nothing. True, you can get more...but the 5 series or E the typical buyer buys off the lot actually has less tech features than the typical GS.
You're misunderstanding me. I am not talking about me, *i* know the ES and the 5 are not comparable cars. I'm telling you what these three people I know did and think. They do not believe they traded down, they believe they made a lateral move from their 5 Series to the ES. To them their low end 5 Series cost about what their higher optioned ES's cost, so to them they feel like they bought a similar car just from Lexus. Im not saying they are right, I'm just relaying their belief. My point is these people are not enthusiasts, they bought the 5 Series because it's a mid sized BMW...and to them the ES is similar. That's why the GS doesn't sell at the same volume, because non enthusiast buyers (most) buy the ES. If the ES didn't exist, GS sales would be far stronger.
Acura absolutely had success...with the Legend and the Integra. The brand as a whole isn't nearly as successful as Lexus, they made a lot of poor choices along the way and now they're a very disappointing marque IMHO.
All you have to do is sit in and drive the GS to see what you cannot find in an IS or ES. I came from the ES, and the GS is better in every way but rear space. Much better interior, much better chassis, driving dynamics, performance. The IS is smaller, less sophisticated feeling.
What technology do the Germans have in a typical build the GS doesn't have? Nothing. True, you can get more...but the 5 series or E the typical buyer buys off the lot actually has less tech features than the typical GS.
04-12-14, 07:24 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Not sure where I haven't been consistent...my feeling as to why the GS doesn't sell in volumes like the other cars in the segment is because non-enthusiast buyers buy the ES instead of the GS. Those buyers buy lightly optioned, small engined 5 series, E Classes, A6 etc in those brands.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-12-14 at 07:56 PM.