BMW to a Lexus - New owner thoughts
06-24-12, 02:22 PM
#31
Quote:
This bump thump is also experienced in the Benz E350, and the Audi A6 3.0 Supercharged AWD, and it also existed in the 535i back in the 1980's and 1990's, without the 19" and without the run flats.
This bump thump is actually caused by the German cars being fitted with firmer springs.
Soft floaty dampers/shock absorbers are used to create a false sense of a luxurious ride.
The firmer springs for less weight transfer to the outside wheels, albeit on soft floaty dampers/shock absorbers, is the reason why the German turn in/response can be faster or sharper, with quicker changes in direction, and greater terminal grip.
However, the soft dampers/shock absorbers for a false sense of luxury ride, will lead to loss of control, with the car floating all over the place.
Suspension design is pure compromise.
Personally, I prefer the base model 4GS with soft springs [for comfort], on firm dampers [for control].
However, the soft springs do lead to greater weight transfer to the outside wheels, for less quick changes in direction, and less terminal lateral acceleration.
Those who want more dynamics can always opt for the F-Sport with its firmer springs, dampers and roll bars, plus 19" rims...
...
The Drive:
Nice drive, controlled body roll which is not excessive, adequate power and decent steering feedback. The initial turn in of the front wheels into a corner is impressive but the rest of car doesn’t seem to follow that nimble front end into the corner with the same ease. Don’t get me wrong it isn’t bad but this is definitely not the pinnacle when it comes to this department. But given the size and purpose of this car I think it does a solid job on this front. Sports + mode helps further reduce body roll though I wish it was even more aggressive. While there is a difference from the standard mode to Sports and Sports + it isn’t a drastic change. Overall, considering the mission of the car I have no issues on the handling front and I am pleased with the ride. If I came across as critical it was only to temper the excitement so nobody walks into this car thinking it handles like an M5. Eco mode – I have used it a few times when I am sitting in traffic and just cruising on the highway. No real comments on the eco mode… it seems fine and the car feels a bit more relaxed.
...
The Drive:
Nice drive, controlled body roll which is not excessive, adequate power and decent steering feedback. The initial turn in of the front wheels into a corner is impressive but the rest of car doesn’t seem to follow that nimble front end into the corner with the same ease. Don’t get me wrong it isn’t bad but this is definitely not the pinnacle when it comes to this department. But given the size and purpose of this car I think it does a solid job on this front. Sports + mode helps further reduce body roll though I wish it was even more aggressive. While there is a difference from the standard mode to Sports and Sports + it isn’t a drastic change. Overall, considering the mission of the car I have no issues on the handling front and I am pleased with the ride. If I came across as critical it was only to temper the excitement so nobody walks into this car thinking it handles like an M5. Eco mode – I have used it a few times when I am sitting in traffic and just cruising on the highway. No real comments on the eco mode… it seems fine and the car feels a bit more relaxed.
...
I have to agree. In my BMW it was probably a bit worse than the average car since I opted for the 19 inch staggered run flat summer tires. I am sure the ride was probably more bearable with the 17 or 18 inch wheels. Whenever I hit a pothole at speed it always felt like parts of the car were getting torn up and you could definitely feel the impact in the cabin. The GS on the other hand does seem to deal with road imperfections in a much more smoother manner.
This bump thump is actually caused by the German cars being fitted with firmer springs.
Soft floaty dampers/shock absorbers are used to create a false sense of a luxurious ride.
The firmer springs for less weight transfer to the outside wheels, albeit on soft floaty dampers/shock absorbers, is the reason why the German turn in/response can be faster or sharper, with quicker changes in direction, and greater terminal grip.
However, the soft dampers/shock absorbers for a false sense of luxury ride, will lead to loss of control, with the car floating all over the place.
Suspension design is pure compromise.
Personally, I prefer the base model 4GS with soft springs [for comfort], on firm dampers [for control].
However, the soft springs do lead to greater weight transfer to the outside wheels, for less quick changes in direction, and less terminal lateral acceleration.
Those who want more dynamics can always opt for the F-Sport with its firmer springs, dampers and roll bars, plus 19" rims...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-24-12 at 02:28 PM.
06-24-12, 02:25 PM
#32
Lexus Champion
Wow man that was a great write up. I have a E60 535i and I'm debating whether I should go ahead and pull the trigger on a 4GS but I just love the torque of the Bummer but I've been running into problems with it haha.
06-24-12, 10:35 PM
#33
Pole Position
I have to agree. In my BMW it was probably a bit worse than the average car since I opted for the 19 inch staggered run flat summer tires. I am sure the ride was probably more bearable with the 17 or 18 inch wheels. Whenever I hit a pothole at speed it always felt like parts of the car were getting torn up and you could definitely feel the impact in the cabin. The GS on the other hand does seem to deal with road imperfections in a much more smoother manner.
I read somewhere that BMW reverted to heavier cast-iron suspension for cost reasons for their lower end 3/5 series (I could be wrong). The heavier unsprung weight leads to less responsiveness in the suspension to sudden changes in the road surface.
06-25-12, 02:05 AM
#34
If I'm not wrong, most of the Germans can be optioned with electronic variable dampers too, esp the 5 Series and the A6.
Restricting the oil flow through damper valves on bump can firm up the suspension a little.
However, by and large, firm suspension is mainly attributed to the use of thicker and hence firmer coil springs, that resist torsion of the coil on compression.
It is also possible that the 4GS and the Germans use similar spring rates, however the progressively variable springs on the 4GS have more distance dedicated to soft travel, while the Germans may have less millimeters devoted to soft travel, and more centimeters devoted to firmer travel - hence the greater bump thump emanating from the German cars.
Also, most of the Germans use aluminium alloy suspension components too, if I remember correctly.
While the 3GS and 4GS only has an aluminium bonnet, the 5 Series has aluminium bonnets, boot lids, doors, and even other parts like front quarter panels, if I'm not wrong.
Lightweight alloy wheels, and lightweight suspension components, reduce the inertial mass, hence reducing the momentum that is transmitted to the body structure, after hitting a bump.
This greater momentum affects the body attitude more.
Hence, it's an advantage to have lighter unsprung suspension components and wheels.
When hitting a bump, this has less momentum, hence it vertically upsets the body to a lesser extent, with lesser shock to the occupants...
Restricting the oil flow through damper valves on bump can firm up the suspension a little.
However, by and large, firm suspension is mainly attributed to the use of thicker and hence firmer coil springs, that resist torsion of the coil on compression.
It is also possible that the 4GS and the Germans use similar spring rates, however the progressively variable springs on the 4GS have more distance dedicated to soft travel, while the Germans may have less millimeters devoted to soft travel, and more centimeters devoted to firmer travel - hence the greater bump thump emanating from the German cars.
Also, most of the Germans use aluminium alloy suspension components too, if I remember correctly.
While the 3GS and 4GS only has an aluminium bonnet, the 5 Series has aluminium bonnets, boot lids, doors, and even other parts like front quarter panels, if I'm not wrong.
Lightweight alloy wheels, and lightweight suspension components, reduce the inertial mass, hence reducing the momentum that is transmitted to the body structure, after hitting a bump.
This greater momentum affects the body attitude more.
Hence, it's an advantage to have lighter unsprung suspension components and wheels.
When hitting a bump, this has less momentum, hence it vertically upsets the body to a lesser extent, with lesser shock to the occupants...
06-25-12, 09:03 AM
#35
If I'm not wrong, most of the Germans can be optioned with electronic variable dampers too, esp the 5 Series and the A6.
Restricting the oil flow through damper valves on bump can firm up the suspension a little.
However, by and large, firm suspension is mainly attributed to the use of thicker and hence firmer coil springs, that resist torsion of the coil on compression.
It is also possible that the 4GS and the Germans use similar spring rates, however the progressively variable springs on the 4GS have more distance dedicated to soft travel, while the Germans may have less millimeters devoted to soft travel, and more centimeters devoted to firmer travel - hence the greater bump thump emanating from the German cars.
Also, most of the Germans use aluminium alloy suspension components too, if I remember correctly.
While the 3GS and 4GS only has an aluminium bonnet, the 5 Series has aluminium bonnets, boot lids, doors, and even other parts like front quarter panels, if I'm not wrong.
Lightweight alloy wheels, and lightweight suspension components, reduce the inertial mass, hence reducing the momentum that is transmitted to the body structure, after hitting a bump.
This greater momentum affects the body attitude more.
Hence, it's an advantage to have lighter unsprung suspension components and wheels.
When hitting a bump, this has less momentum, hence it vertically upsets the body to a lesser extent, with lesser shock to the occupants...
Restricting the oil flow through damper valves on bump can firm up the suspension a little.
However, by and large, firm suspension is mainly attributed to the use of thicker and hence firmer coil springs, that resist torsion of the coil on compression.
It is also possible that the 4GS and the Germans use similar spring rates, however the progressively variable springs on the 4GS have more distance dedicated to soft travel, while the Germans may have less millimeters devoted to soft travel, and more centimeters devoted to firmer travel - hence the greater bump thump emanating from the German cars.
Also, most of the Germans use aluminium alloy suspension components too, if I remember correctly.
While the 3GS and 4GS only has an aluminium bonnet, the 5 Series has aluminium bonnets, boot lids, doors, and even other parts like front quarter panels, if I'm not wrong.
Lightweight alloy wheels, and lightweight suspension components, reduce the inertial mass, hence reducing the momentum that is transmitted to the body structure, after hitting a bump.
This greater momentum affects the body attitude more.
Hence, it's an advantage to have lighter unsprung suspension components and wheels.
When hitting a bump, this has less momentum, hence it vertically upsets the body to a lesser extent, with lesser shock to the occupants...
for instance when you have runflats, then springs/shocks are actually softer as runflats are pretty hard themselves. So for instance 3GS owners when replacing the runflats with non-runflats, would experience softer ride.
06-25-12, 12:41 PM
#36
uh, theory is good if you are talking about exactly the same cars... but we are not talking about exactly the same cars... design of the suspension, technology used, greatly differ so who is using softer/firmer is not relevant as it is only one part of the suspension.
for instance when you have runflats, then springs/shocks are actually softer as runflats are pretty hard themselves. So for instance 3GS owners when replacing the runflats with non-runflats, would experience softer ride.
for instance when you have runflats, then springs/shocks are actually softer as runflats are pretty hard themselves. So for instance 3GS owners when replacing the runflats with non-runflats, would experience softer ride.
Whereas the 1997-2005 2GS was so much more compliant over bumps...
06-25-12, 12:51 PM
#37
Actually, the compliance from baggy tires, and low tire pressures, is very different from soft long travel springs.
When test driving the 1996-03 535i with baggy tires and firm springs, with experience, you can actually sense the baggy tires, and the flattish attitude from the firm springs.
In other words, tires and tire pressures, can be distinguished from firm springs, during a test drive; with experience.
Soft dampers are easy - it's floaty.
Many years ago, when I was not experienced, I couldn't tell the difference when driving between tire profiles, tire pressures, springs and dampers rates.
Nowadays with experience, when I test drive, I can more accurately distinguish between these different design factors, and the effect it has on the motor car's handling.
Nowadays, when I test drive two cars, one with run flats and soft springs, against another with non-runflats and firms springs, I am say - 80% confident I can tell which is which, during a test drive...
When test driving the 1996-03 535i with baggy tires and firm springs, with experience, you can actually sense the baggy tires, and the flattish attitude from the firm springs.
In other words, tires and tire pressures, can be distinguished from firm springs, during a test drive; with experience.
Soft dampers are easy - it's floaty.
Many years ago, when I was not experienced, I couldn't tell the difference when driving between tire profiles, tire pressures, springs and dampers rates.
Nowadays with experience, when I test drive, I can more accurately distinguish between these different design factors, and the effect it has on the motor car's handling.
Nowadays, when I test drive two cars, one with run flats and soft springs, against another with non-runflats and firms springs, I am say - 80% confident I can tell which is which, during a test drive...
Last edited by peteharvey; 06-25-12 at 01:00 PM.
06-27-12, 07:42 PM
#39
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Thanks! Glad you found the impressions useful! I have experienced the NAV in the 2012 RX 450 hybrid and wasn't that pleased. It looked a bit too pedestrian. The one in the new GS is nicer. The graphics appear to be in higher definition. The large screen also adds to this experience. Sadly no birds eye or satellite views. Which is odd since Lexus appears to offer these perspectives on the new GS in some international markets. No real complaints from my end on the navigation so far!!
06-28-12, 10:47 AM
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I've found that the routes that it takes isn't optimal.
Several times it would take me the long way around if I had to get across the highway. Instead of going through the underpass it will take me on the highway and back.
I already have it set to shortest time possible.
Several times it would take me the long way around if I had to get across the highway. Instead of going through the underpass it will take me on the highway and back.
I already have it set to shortest time possible.
06-28-12, 04:11 PM
#41
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BMW vs Lexus
Well I currently drive an 10 BMW X5 3.5D (E70) and my wife a 13 GS 350 F sport AWD.
My BMW is a diesel so apples and oranges. Torgue is great and for an SUV and it cornors great for it's size
.
This car was free to me as they took back the 08 V8 X5 which had a chronic excessive battery drain that some had written about. This was after writing to a Munich VP though as no one here was going to do anything. That was the major disapointment.
No one here mentioned the M37 or M 37X or M56 We both like the interior of that car but the brakes were very mushy.
On the other hand I was pulling my hair out at Lexus as the F sport is the driver's handling car but no HUD (heads up display) is available. In the otther packages it is. I told the dealer this is backwards. Corvettes have HUD and Cadillacs not so much.
The front of the car is the best view. They also should have kept the foglights in the F sport.
I can tell you the car gets load at redline. My wife knows nothing about the paddle shifter or manual upsift and got it in the manual shift mode by accident driving a mile to work. She called me to say the car sounds like a race car. I know it was was tuned to do that which I do like
My BMW is a diesel so apples and oranges. Torgue is great and for an SUV and it cornors great for it's size
.
This car was free to me as they took back the 08 V8 X5 which had a chronic excessive battery drain that some had written about. This was after writing to a Munich VP though as no one here was going to do anything. That was the major disapointment.
No one here mentioned the M37 or M 37X or M56 We both like the interior of that car but the brakes were very mushy.
On the other hand I was pulling my hair out at Lexus as the F sport is the driver's handling car but no HUD (heads up display) is available. In the otther packages it is. I told the dealer this is backwards. Corvettes have HUD and Cadillacs not so much.
The front of the car is the best view. They also should have kept the foglights in the F sport.
I can tell you the car gets load at redline. My wife knows nothing about the paddle shifter or manual upsift and got it in the manual shift mode by accident driving a mile to work. She called me to say the car sounds like a race car. I know it was was tuned to do that which I do like
06-28-12, 08:08 PM
#42
Lexus Champion
Well I currently drive an 10 BMW X5 3.5D (E70) and my wife a 13 GS 350 F sport AWD.
My BMW is a diesel so apples and oranges. Torgue is great and for an SUV and it cornors great for it's size
.
This car was free to me as they took back the 08 V8 X5 which had a chronic excessive battery drain that some had written about. This was after writing to a Munich VP though as no one here was going to do anything. That was the major disapointment.
No one here mentioned the M37 or M 37X or M56 We both like the interior of that car but the brakes were very mushy.
On the other hand I was pulling my hair out at Lexus as the F sport is the driver's handling car but no HUD (heads up display) is available. In the otther packages it is. I told the dealer this is backwards. Corvettes have HUD and Cadillacs not so much.
The front of the car is the best view. They also should have kept the foglights in the F sport.
I can tell you the car gets load at redline. My wife knows nothing about the paddle shifter or manual upsift and got it in the manual shift mode by accident driving a mile to work. She called me to say the car sounds like a race car. I know it was was tuned to do that which I do like
My BMW is a diesel so apples and oranges. Torgue is great and for an SUV and it cornors great for it's size
.
This car was free to me as they took back the 08 V8 X5 which had a chronic excessive battery drain that some had written about. This was after writing to a Munich VP though as no one here was going to do anything. That was the major disapointment.
No one here mentioned the M37 or M 37X or M56 We both like the interior of that car but the brakes were very mushy.
On the other hand I was pulling my hair out at Lexus as the F sport is the driver's handling car but no HUD (heads up display) is available. In the otther packages it is. I told the dealer this is backwards. Corvettes have HUD and Cadillacs not so much.
The front of the car is the best view. They also should have kept the foglights in the F sport.
I can tell you the car gets load at redline. My wife knows nothing about the paddle shifter or manual upsift and got it in the manual shift mode by accident driving a mile to work. She called me to say the car sounds like a race car. I know it was was tuned to do that which I do like
10-20-12, 04:35 PM
#44
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Update at 4400 miles
Still loving my 2013 GS 350 F Sport AWD. Had a full detail done and picked her up. Grabbed a few shots. She had the tiniest little ding even though I park at the far edge of every parking lot. Luckily they were able to pop it out and it looks like new again 
Tiny rattle so took a test drive with a tech. Identified it to the front passenger seat back. The tech was sitting in the rear because if someone sat on the front passenger seat due to the pressure the rattle would stop. The fix is for them to take the seat back apart and put some felt lining. On the way back I completely reduced the lumbar support to see in case that might help and it seems like the rattle has reduced a lot. I will see how it is in the next couple of days before deciding to take it in or not.
Another observation - sometimes when cold in the morning and I start the engine it sounds a bit like a diesel. Goes away after 5 minutes or so. Not too bothered with it right now.
The enform app is still kinda wonky and I was hoping Lexus would have a better handle on updates by now (iOS6 w/ iPhone 4S).
Went for a nice drive around some winding roads today. The steering feel and suspension in sports + do a great job at making the car feel smaller and makes for a willing partner on these types of roads. For a car that has to wear so many different hats Lexus has nailed this pretty well. I thought once I made the jump to Lexus I would regret leaving the BMW fold... not one single regret or feeling that I should have gotten the new 5 series. The only car that made me slightly curious is the new Jaguar XJ V6 AWD but even so the GS keeps me plenty happy.
Hope everyone else is enjoying their rides and the weekend.
Tiny rattle so took a test drive with a tech. Identified it to the front passenger seat back. The tech was sitting in the rear because if someone sat on the front passenger seat due to the pressure the rattle would stop. The fix is for them to take the seat back apart and put some felt lining. On the way back I completely reduced the lumbar support to see in case that might help and it seems like the rattle has reduced a lot. I will see how it is in the next couple of days before deciding to take it in or not.
Another observation - sometimes when cold in the morning and I start the engine it sounds a bit like a diesel. Goes away after 5 minutes or so. Not too bothered with it right now.
The enform app is still kinda wonky and I was hoping Lexus would have a better handle on updates by now (iOS6 w/ iPhone 4S).
Went for a nice drive around some winding roads today. The steering feel and suspension in sports + do a great job at making the car feel smaller and makes for a willing partner on these types of roads. For a car that has to wear so many different hats Lexus has nailed this pretty well. I thought once I made the jump to Lexus I would regret leaving the BMW fold... not one single regret or feeling that I should have gotten the new 5 series. The only car that made me slightly curious is the new Jaguar XJ V6 AWD but even so the GS keeps me plenty happy.
Hope everyone else is enjoying their rides and the weekend.
Last edited by ego29iste; 10-20-12 at 04:39 PM.
10-20-12, 08:42 PM
#45
Lexus Champion
She's beautiful and great to hear your observations now that you've driven the car for a while. I've had my GS F-Sport since March and have 3,600 miles on it. I really have no complaints. The car does everything well, from comfortable cruising to ***** out cornering at speed, and the piped-in roar when stepping on it has gotten addictive. I would still like something a bit smaller (waiting to see what the IS is like), but for this class of car it is damn near perfect.