052SI

Car we drove was a base GS and looks so-so without the sport wheels. The sport wheels are only painted dark in brake dust gray, wish they were also offered in the same finish as the IS's 18's. No rattles in the demo at all. Power was good but fell kinda short, brake feel was a soft pedal that required more travel than the Germans but was typical in Lexus fashion; the F sport gets better brakes. The ride was great. Pemiums got Michelins, Base gets Dunlops and Sport had Bridgestone's. . Wish the Sport offered the black wood, it's very nice. Car is not a bargin at $58k for a loaded premium especially since the heavily upgraded and restyled E Class is due out later this summer. Fit and finish was typical Lexus...excellent. Infotainment worked flawlessly. Loved the sliding shelf in the center consle which works well with the arm rest pulled back; perfect spot for your iPhone etc.

Sevn86

Nice observations. I personally like the GS-F. I didn't know MB E class was getting a upgrade/ redesign.

052SI

Thanks.

The F Sport was very nice but it comes with a stiffer ride and aluminum trim only.

Here's a link to the E Class changes; they're significant for a mid cycle and the engine in the 350 jumps to 333hp

http://m.automobilemag.com/new_and_f...ate/index.html

natnut

Did you test drive the F-Sport? IMO F-Sport in normal mode is comfortable enough. Why is 58K not a bargain? The new gadgets in the refreshed E-Class might not be standard but will probably be pricey options. And new tech is usually more defect prone especially in its first iterations.

052SI

Only tested the base, didn't realize the F Sport normal suspension setting was still good for comfort; good to know. $58k is a fair price but no bargain and the car should have had more power for almost $60k and being and all new 2013 model; the 305 hp is getting a little long in the tooth.I think the new E will be much more car but probably an extra 5k. The dark gray wheels looked good on a white car and maybe black, but they really need an optional lighter shade too. I'd imagine the new tech stuff in the G might be prone to the same issues as the MB. Not trying to knock the G but being honest about my observations.

peteharvey

Yes, the ride on the base model is very good.
The F Sport is quite comfortable for a sports sedan, but too firm for a luxury sedan.
It just depends how comfortable you want it.
It's a relative thing.

The GS350 is a little lacking in bottom end torque; it was designed for top end torque and top end power, similar to the old 3GS GS300.
If my memory serves me well, the regular front drive Camry 3.5 V6 with indirect fuel injection is designed for bottom end torque.

In overseas countries like the Asia-Pacific as in Australia and Singapore etc, they get a reworked 2.5 V6 with heaps of bottom end torque, but not much top end torque for only a peak power of some 154 kW, combined with 1.7 tons, the GS250 in those countries is said to do 0-100 kph in a rather lengthy 8.6 seconds.
But the 2.5 is said to have tons of bottom end torque; easily hauling 1.7 tons around.

That facelifted E Class with 333 horsepower?
We must be careful, and actually drive it.
My old 2001 C240 2.6 90 degree V6 has a severe lack of bottom end punch; far far worse than the 4GS.
The C300 3.0 V6 also has a severe lack of bottom end punch.
The problem with a 90 degree V6, is that the bottom end torque is even worse than a 60 degree V6, due to the inlet port.
An in-line six, like BMW's has the best bottom end torque, because it allows more efficient inlet ports.
Mercedes are dumping their 90 degree V6 blocks, for an all new series of in-line sixes in several years.

Also, when a manufacturer wrings 333 horsepower out of the E Class 90 degree block, we must be careful and actually test drive it, because often the more top end power we have, the more it comes at the expense of bottom end power.
Unless it is supercharged or turbocharged.

The dark grey wheels look nice.
And different too.
And helps to disguise all that brake dust...

natnut

Ah I see. The E-class will have a huge task overcoming the immense handling advantage that the GS350 F-Sport has established in this class of vehicles. Right now as it stands, the E-class is pretty much bottom of the barrel (together with Infiniti) in terms of handling and slowest in this class of six cylinder engines. It's current 0-60 and 1/4 mile is 1 second behind that of the current GS. As it stands, it's A6 3.0T > GS350 > 535i > M37S > E350 in terms of straightline acceleration.

It will be interesting to see the pricing of the refreshed E class and see the reviews on its handling and dynamic abilities.

You should see these comparos : GS350 vs 535i vs E350:

http://www.automobilemag.com/lexusgs...titive-results

And here's an independant head to head of the three vehicles on the track :


Seeing this, MB better improve the E350 SIGNIFICANTLY if it wants to sell the E-class based on quality and not just badge-snob factor.

052SI

Yes a test against the new 13 E will be a good one. Since the E is direct injected it may still have better torque than the G. I didn't think the G made much brake dust and would like to see a light colored rim ala the IS 18" color as an addition option; I think the dark wheel stuff doesn't alawys look so great all the time and with all colors.If you read the link the new E gets a significant host of improvements inside and out and under the hood. We'll see if they are good enough very soon, should be interesting.

Outrage

The GS 350 equipped with the Luxury Package includes the Adaptive Variable Suspension, with Sport S+ mode, just like the F-Sport Package equipped model does. Luxury Package models are equipped with "Linear Espresso Trim" (dark wood) inside. Split-nine-spoke Burnished Silver 18" wheels replace the nine-spoke silver 17" wheels or split-five-spoke "Superchrome" ("brake dust gray", as you describe it) 18" wheels on the base trim model. The difference in MSRP between the F-Sport package and the closest-level Luxury Package are $60 in RWD and $395 in AWD.

rjm

From what I am reading on the MB forums these changes will not occur until the 2014 model comes out. The 2013 will retain the same engine without any HP increase and other changes in the new model will be minor. The big changes will come in 2014......unless the guys on the MB forums don't know what they are talking about.

natnut

Actually the GS gets dual injection : direct injection for torque and power as well as port injection for fuel efficiency.

The reason why the F-Sport RWD is significantly upgraded vs the base GS is :

1) intelligent adaptive variable suspension (AVS) that adjusts the stiffness of the dampers on-the-fly. That also explains why "comfort" on the F-Sport is almost as comfortable as the base GS while "Sport+" allows the F-Sport to hang with sports cars on the track . Luxury package also has AVS.

2) VGRS (variable gear ratio steering). Basically speed sensitive steering which also varies with the mode the car is in : Sport+ has the heaviest but most pin-point steering. F-Sport RWD only.

3) 14.1 inch vs 13.1 inch front brakes, also importantly, 2 piece rotors which not only reduce weight of the brakes but have a special cooling system to reduce brake fade. This is F-Sport RWD only.

3) staggered broader rear wheels. Interesting fact is that the offset of the rear wheels are less agressive than the front. This set-up is similar to F1 cars where the rear track width will be the same, or less than, the front track width. This will maintain/improve your handling around the track because the chassis of the vehicle will "pivot" at the rear while maintaining a firm cornering grip up front. Think of your car as a V shape where the front wheels are at the widest part of the V, and the rear wheels are at the narrowest part. Also F-Sport RWD only.



Look at how the rear wheel track width is actually narrower than the front track width, even though the rear tires are actually bigger. The GS F-Sport has a similar set-up.

4) Only F-Sport RWD gets the DRS (Dynamic Rear Steer) option. This reduces the turning circle of the car at lower speeds so that initial turn-in when negotiating corners/curves is much sharper yet high speed stability is as if on rails.

I guess my point is that test driving the "base" GS will give you a very wrong picture as to the standard the refreshed E350 has to beat. Trust me, the GS350 RWD F-Sport at ard $58-60,000 is in a whole different league of handling and one which I doubt the E350 can surmount. Not unless MB redoes the entire chassis of the E-class which isn't happening with a simple refresh.

052SI

According to the latest Automobile magazine issue the E class change is for MY 2013 and will be released early next year. It's is a very significant list of changes in and out; the car will be very much improved. The entite platform is due for MY15 so the 13 refresh albeit an extensive one makes sense (2yrs from that until the next platform).

I will try the F Sport for sure next time. I still feel they could/should have done better than the same old 305 HP level,, the F Sport needs a black wood option and a brite wheel finish option. I think the dark wheels will be a passing fad like they were in the 80's and in the GS the sport rims look best on a white car. No offense just my opinion. Interesting about the F1 car's track, but in the F1 the engine is mounted behind the driver, wondering if that had something to do with this setup.

peteharvey

It all depends what luxury to sports balance/compromise you want.
Do you want outright comfort and luxury?
Luxury with a touch of sports?
50/50 luxury and sports?
Or more sports biased?
Or outright sports?

It depends what age group you are in, how much luxury or sportiness you want etc etc.
Cars tend to sell in this "chronological" order of priority:
1) Badge: if we don't know much about something, we tend to go for the most reputable badge. For example, if I want to buy a sewing machine, and I don't know much about sewing machines, then I tend to buy "Singer".
If I want a microscope, I will tend to go "Olympus".
A good product creates a good reputation, which gives it a good name.
2) Styling.
Most car buyers in this segment are 40+, or even 50+; this age group tend to have the money to enter this segment.
At this age, tastes become conservative - thus the E Class conservative styling does well.
On the otherhand, the old Lexus 3GS had a swoopy shape, that was too advanced for more mature and conservative buyers.
3) Size.
At this age group of buyers, most have older children etc, so they want space.
The E Class tends to be the roomiest car in this segment; the swoopy Jag XF the most compact.
4) Performance.
5) Handling.
6) Comfort.
7) Equipment.
8) Safety. Mostly lower down, because cars are relatively safe.
9) Durability and reliability.
10) Environmental Friendliness and Recyclability. Most people leave this last.
11) Cost and value for money. Having assessed the car, people then think about the price, the purchase and ownership.


The E Class tends to do well with the: badge, styling and space - the first three things you notice when you meet a motor car.
You know the badge.
You see the styling. Here, the styling suits the conservative majority in the age group too.
You feel the space once you sit in it, without having to start the engine.
Performance and handling doesn't need to be super for this age group. That's why the E Class traditionally outsells the 5 Series worldwide.
It should be comfortable and quiet, and the E Class is so.
Mind you, the E Class' secret is that it is still a reasonable V6, a very good chassis, and very refined.

The current E Class was released in 2009, so with a 7 year model cycle, the next E Class should be due 2016.
However, Benz says they are going to shorten their model cycles, so the next E Class could be due 2015.
Mercedes make some of the biggest running changes around at facelift time, even to their engines, suspensions, and dashboards, and this helps to prolong their sales.
Whereas Lexus tends to make only minor alterations, and this is really hard on the dealers and sales reps.


The GS isn't quite as strong on the badge, nor on the styling, and is a little smaller and cosier inside.
It should be noted too, that the GS styling will tend to suit the younger person more than the E Class.
The GS tends to be strong from the performance onwards.
Good handling.
Comfortable and quiet too.
Great equipment.
Good safety.
Great reliability.
Pretty good environmental friendliness.
Great price.

So it's all a matter of tastes.
All depends on what you want in a motor car.
If the manufacturer gets the formula right, they will end up with a lot of sales, and the Dealers and Sales Reps won't have to work too hard to sell the motor cars.
If they get it wrong, Dealers and Sales Reps will have huge stresses trying to make a living.
Btw, what sells the most, is not necessarily what is best for an individual buyer, owner, and driver.
If two cars are a different "type", eg luxury versus sports, then we cannot compare their sales figures.
Conventional luxury sedans will always be more popular than sports sedans.
We can only compare their sales if they are the same type, and in the same category.


The F Sport version has different suspension settings, diffing springs, dampers, and roll bars, and upgraded brakes, 19" rims, and different exterior and interior trim.
The Sport setting gives earlier upshifts in the auto tranny, with no effect on the suspension whatsoever.
In the Luxury version, the Sport+ gives both earlier upshifts in the auto tranny, and firmer dampers.
In the F Sport version, Sport+ alters the electric power steering as well as activates the active rear wheel steering.
The normal GS's do have half a degree or one degree of passive rear wheel steering via deformable rear suspension bushings.

The F1 cars have a wider front track relative to the rear track to promote more understeer; better braking stability too.
As the body rolls, more weight is transferred to the outside wheel with the wider track, [here the front wheel], hence the front breaks into understeer; that's what a wider front track does.
There are also other reasons, like having the rear wheels together promotes more traction and less wheel spin in a RWD car.
In case of a dragster, having shorter drive shafts on the rear axle makes them less prone to torsional fracture from the huge amount of torque that is transmitted to their rear wheels...

rjm

You might be interested in this thread. The changes are coming in the 2014 MY according to the experts on the MB forum. Car mags are notorious for errors in reporting.

http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w2...3-e-class.html


or here:

http://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w2...2013-e350.html

052SI

Thanks saw that, I'd tend to believe Automobile magazine but they say early next year, so maybe 13 will be a short MY, either way the new E is a big step in the right direction

PeteHarvey

Great post, thanks. I think the GS is about 90% there. I also think MB and Lexus are close in terms of status with MB having a slight lead. The 2012 Jag XF is very nice and offers the best bang for the buck im many areas but Jag initial quality is no where's near Lexus.