LexFather

Most BMWs are leased and not bought and many do buy blindly, like any other brand that has a reputation in high regard. It is what it is. People buy Gucci blindly no matter how it looks.

What is absolutely hilarious is the double-standard, the new arguement BMW owners are using saying "99% of the time people don't drive like that" to rationalize why a BMW, a brand that sells itself as the "ultimate driving machine" no longer dominates. You see this past arguement was used by Lexus owners and owners of other brands and they were told they suck b/c sport is all that matters in a car. Fast forward to 2012 and the GS is sportiest in this class, Audi beats BMW in some areas, Benz etc and "oh sport doesn't matter that much"

Another one is so many BMW people crapping on hybrids and yet they continue to sell more hybrids and their sports car i8 is a hybrid thingie

We were told by BMW, "no M will be a turbo" and well, they have turbos and will have a tri-turbo soon.

We were told by BMW "no M SUVs, no way they are not the M essence" and here we have 2 5000 lbs M SUVs

BMW advertised making fun of FWD cars. Now FWD BMWs are coming

Its ****ing hilarious.

Now mind you the 5 series is IMO maybe one of the best all around vehicles I've seen produced. BMW still is hardcore in motorsport. We are debating semantics since BMW, Lexus do well for themselves. BMW is still one of the best cars and brands you can for the money and in many cases arguably best in class.

I'm just tickled by some of the posts and previous comments.

Who knows 10 years from now Kia might be the sportiest luxury brand.

Toys4RJill

LOL at the MT article. Let me just say I didn't even bother reading about the Infiniti M.

The Audi interior has become boring...

And the BMW interior kinda looks dated.

As the GS, I have really like the car. The interior is great. The dynamics are superb.

My only issue is no V8 or 8 speed.

Anyways, nice to see Lexus on top.

jjscsix

All fair comments, but I don't give much thought to what manufactures say then change their mind. The world changes and I have no problem that they do things they said they would never do. But I get your points anyway and appreciate your comments. I don't expect the Lexus forum to treat me to tea and crumpets when I come on and brag about my new BMW, but in fairness most of ya'll have been very polite and fair with your responses

peteharvey

The ES is a "budget" mid-size luxury saloon using indirect injection, short wheelbase with the engine mounted in front of the front axle resulting in a heavy nose, simple direct front wheel drive, simple single link MacPherson struts, which cannot keep the wheels perpendicular to the ground, and a heavy steel bonnet.

By comparison, the GS is the same mid-size, but a "premium" product, with direct injection, a long wheelbase with the engine behind the front axle for a near 50:50 weight distribution, rear wheel drive, lightweight aluminium alloy double wishbone and multi-link rear suspension the keep the wheels more perpendicular to the ground, and a lightweight aluminium bonnet.

By the way, that is the same relationship that exists between the IS and HS.
Both IS and HS are very similar in size, especially externally; internally the budget space efficient front drivers are often roomier than their rear drive luxury counterparts.
However, the IS is rear drive, multi-link, where the HS is front drive and simple MacPherson strut suspension.

Therefore, the budget ES is not a substitute for the luxury GS.
Nor is the full size LS a substitute for the midsize GS.
The GS is its own man...




This thread is about whether the new 4th generation GS is a game changer, or not.

In my opinion, if we narrow it down to something like “The F-Sports is a game changer for Lexus amongst sports sedans”, then maybe rightly so.
However, the conventional, mainstream, and top selling luxury versions of the 4GS, is unfortunately not a game changer.

Most people buy the luxury version.
Put it another way, most of us have sedans, not coupes or sports cars; it’s just more practical.
By the same token, most sedans are luxury sedans – not sports sedans.
Sure, each type of motor vehicle, be it a sedan, coupe, or sports car – each has its place.
However, the luxury sedan is the most popular format.

At the end of the day, people must actually buy the car.
They must buy the particular model. They must buy the 4GS.
If they buy another model, like the E Class or the 5 Series, then it’s all over for the 4GS.
The quality of the 4GS must be good enough for customers to buy.
The purchase and the sales, is the proof of the pudding.


Sports and Handling?
There are a number of major steps in the production of a motor car, from start to finish. Roughly:
1) The financial budget and investment.
2) The ideas.
3) The engineering.
4) The manufacture.
5) The testing.
6) The marketing.
7) The retail, sales, purchase and ownership.
8) Warranty, maintenance and repairs.
9) Resale.
10) The scrap yard, recyclability and environmental friendliness, etc etc.

When it comes to marketing, manufacturers have been known to sponsor, or even actively participate in motor sports eg Formula 1 Racing.
Presently, Mercedes and BMW have the better of Honda and Toyota in F1 Racing.
Many years ago, when Toyota was the most financially successful motor car company in the world, Toyota thought that they could just enter Formula 1, and blast Honda, and everyone else off the planet, including Mercedes and BMW.
Sadly that has not been the case.
Toyota has since struggled in Formula 1 – playing second fiddle to Honda too.
Since Aryton Senna passed away, I don’t follow F1 much these days, but Toyota is almost coming last.

However, back to the topic, what is the role of Motor Sports in marketing?
Does Motor Sports merely help?
Or is Motor Sports the be all and end all?
Obviously, it only helps in the overall scheme of things.

What evidence do we have for this?
Well, Benz and Beamer are presently at the pinnacle of motor sports and F1.
At the pinnacle of motor sports, will consumers be gullible enough to purchase an A or B Class Mercedes?
Will consumers be gullible enough to purchase a 1 Series BMW?
The answer is sadly no.
We all know that the A Class, B Class and 1 Series are some of the worst cars in the world, and some of the worst selling cars in the world.

Thus, the most important facet of the motor car is always the quality of the product – bar none.
Benz and Beamer’s success in Formula 1 Racing can help, but it’s not a substitute for a poor quality product like the A Class, B Class, and 1 Series BMW.
In the same way, the all new 4th Generation Lexus GS F-Sports’ sporty image helps, but it is NOT a substitute for the overall quality of the product.

How experienced are we with Lexus motor cars?
Which was the sportiest Lexus model ever made???
I suspect it was the 1999-2006 Lexus IS200/300.
Do we all agree?
The IS200/300 was a compact sedan powered by a 2.0 or 3.0 litre in-line six, with rear wheel drive, and multi-link suspension.
The IS200 was lightweight and compact.
The steering wheel was small with a thick rim.
Because the IS200 was so light, the steering was so light too.
With such little power assistance, there was tremendous feel in the steering wheel of the IS200.
Because it was so light, and with a low polar moment of inertia [the average mass concentrated near the centre of gravity], the IS200’s steering was razor sharp; sharper than the 1998-2005 3 Series of that similar era.
If we let go of the steering wheel, the IS200 amazingly had very little self centring!
This minimal self centring also contributes to the lightness of the IS’s steering.
The IS200 was reasonably firmly sprung and damped, so the attitude was flat with minimal body roll.
The limits of adhesion were very high.
At the limit of adhesion, the multi-link 1999-2006 IS200 would break away gently and controllably.
The mark of a cars handling, is its ability to let go gently and benignly; no sudden tail snapping that would cause loss of control of the motor car.
The IS200 had one of the best throttle steer, with the tail coming out, and the car oversteering under throttle, and so controllable too.
The IS200 is almost go cart-like in behaviour.
Only a Mazda MX-5 Miata could behave in a similar way.

Anyone truly experienced with motor cars will tell that the current generation IS250/350 is no match in handling to the old 1999-2005 IS200/300.
Nowadays, the IS is bigger and heavier, and no match for the old model.
Likewise, nowadays, the BMW 3 and 5 Series, are becoming progressively bigger and heavier, and are no match for their predecessors, handling-wise.
However, do understand that cars are getting faster and faster in straight line performance.
With the widespread use of low profile tyres, that is helping the grip.
They are becoming more benign and easier to control at the limits.
However, due to the significant size and weight gain since the 1970’s oil crisis, the actual handling has diminished.
Weight is the bane of motoring.

Thus, the 1999-2006 IS200 was by far the best handling Lexus ever – yet it was NOT a game changer for Lexus back then.
How can the all new 4th generation GS, even in F-Sports, be a game changer for Lexus now???
The 199-2006 IS200 would run rings all around the F Sports.
Fun to drive had to be the IS200.

Sure, a top quality F-Sports that defeats a 535i Sports in test comparisons help, but it is not the real meat in the sandwich.
Btw, I normally actually test drive the cars back to back myself.
I have not yet test driven either the F-Sports, or the 535i Sports.
I have only driven the standard GS350 and the standard 535i.
The standard 535i actually is a little firmer, and actually out-handles the GS350.
However, I do believe in journalists reviews that the F Sports outhandles the 535i Sports.

At the end of the day, victory from motor sports and the sports model variants like the F-Sports, only help.
The proof of the pudding is still in the top selling, mainstream, conventional, luxury model.
And at the end of the day, this one is not selling as well, coz not that many customers are buying.
Hence, from the conventional mainstream model's view, the new 4GS is NOT a game changer for Lexus.

None of us have a crystal ball. We cannot predict the future.
However, in years to come, I suspect that the all new 4th generation GS sales will plummet to below 20,000 units/yr/USA as usual, and it will just disappear into the oblivion.

To refreshen your memory:
Mercedes E Class sold 58,954 in 2004 in the US.
They sold 60,922 E Classes in 2010.

The 2GS started with 30,622 units/yr/USA in 1998, then finished with 8,262 in 2004.
The 3GS started with 33,457 in 2005, then dropped to 7,430 by 2009.
By 2011, it was only 2,500 odd units.
The new 4GS is a game changer? Sadly, no. I'm sorry. I really do want the 4GS to be a game changer.

We must not mislead Lexus of Japan into thinking that the 4GS is something that it is not.
We’re Lexus owners and a Lexus fans. We’re here to help Lexus.
We want to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the new 4GS.
We want to get the message across to Lexus Japan to improve their cars, esp the future 5GS.



4GS Styling
Like I’ve said before, the biggest problem with the new 4GS is the styling.
Both outside and inside.
The styling emotionally attaches the driver, buyer and owner.
Lexus could have done a better job with the 4GS styling.


Here are a few negative criticism of new 4GS styling:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gs-...ws-thread.html
Post #5:
"Seems the general consensus, among European mags at least, is that its a bit more bolder but still dull to look at"...

Post #194:
Finally saw a 4GS on the road.
I thought the side and rear looked better than seeing the car sitting still in the showroom. Sort of bland but definitely the look of a quality car. Just as I was thinking it was kinda nice, I then saw an ES350 and realized the similarity. That is something I do not like at all.
The color was a type of green. Not my taste but the darkness made it look alright.
I didn't see the front so I didn't have the opportunity to get the full flavor on the road.

I was walking toward my car when I saw it. After I passed it I looked over at my car.
Sorry guys, I just don't see how you all think it looks better than the 3GS.

I'm not the kind of person who blinds himself to reality to feel better about my car. No way I think the 3GS is the worlds greatest. Actually, I am not even a sedan fan. Sometimes I feel stupid for buying the car. But I do like it and think it is stylish....more stylish than the 4".

Post #196
I agree the 4GS is more emotional. Two emotions come to mind, either love it or hate it. I'm neither of those extremes. I just don't think it flows well. Aggressive front on a bland body is just out of synch.

Post #269
...Finally had an opportunity to drive next to a 4GS.
I can't help but to report that it actually looks worse on the road than I thought it would.
Much has been said about the front so I'll leave that alone.
I didn't expect to be put off by the rear this much.
The car looked boxy, plain and tall from the rear. The new Camry looks better...


http://au.lexusownersclub.com/forums...howtopic=11038
Post #1:
"The only dislike so far i have is the rear end of the car. Its nice but im still not sure.".

Post #2:
says "Agree on rear it is not as good as IS. IS is just has this timeless design".


Another thread: http://au.lexusownersclub.com/forums...33&#entry35433
Post #4:
"nice car - not sold on the front though ".


The 4GS styling is possibly the very main reason for its inferior sales, which will diminish rapidly in future years as the 4GS ages.




We know Lexus can be very inconsistent with their styling.
If they have styled certain models poorly, we must be manly enough to accept that, and tell Lexus of Japan directly to improve on the styling of the future 5GS; no point misleading Lexus.




How can this be the game changer for Lexus?
The all new 4GS can do better than this, right???



The aging facelifted IS350 is a much better job, even in its very final year!



Other “excuses” for GS poor sales.
We must have a quality product.
At the end of the day, a quality product sells for itself.
If a product doesn’t sell, we must all be “manly” enough to accept the loss, and constructively determine the weakness that must be resolved, for the next generation to succeed.

Last year [2011], the E Class amassed 53,500+ units/yr/US.
The 5 Series amasses 42,000+ units/yr/US.
While the old 3GS sold only some 2,500+ units/yr/US.
The old Lexus 3GS was an embarrassment in its final years.

With the old 3GS, the curvaceous styling meant that the interior was limited for space and less practical.
My old 3GS also lacked torsional rigidity and bending stiffness such that, not only did the dashboard and central console creak and rattle, but the suspension could not be too firm, to give sharper steering.

With the 4GS, I suspect that it is mainly the styling causing the lesser sales; there are some smaller bits and pieces that can be improved too.
From the current 2,500 units/mth, it will rapidly diminish in years to come.


When a product doesn’t sell – here are some [not primary reasons], but secondary “excuses”:
1) Name/badge/history/reputation/pedigree.
Do we all know what makes the name/badge/history/reputation/pedigree?
All these nouns mean the same thing. Or at least similar.
Some people mistakenly think that names and badges etc, are all magic. It is not.
It is actually the quality of the product that makes the name/badge/history/reputation/pedigree etc.

If a consumer doesn't know much about something, they always go for the name.
For example, I don't know much about sewing machines, so I go for names with a credible reputation like "Singer".
I don't know much about microscopes, so I go for names with credible reputations like "Olympus".
I don't know much about cameras, so I go for names with a credible reputation and history of quality like Canon and Nikon.
Indeed, Benz, BMW and Lexus are three of the top badges, and judging by their quality - rightly so.

Some people also mistakenly think that names/badges etc, are infallible.
Look at GM’s and Fords; overtaken by the Honda Accord.
Now, the Accord is overtaken by the Camry.

Look at the Palm Pilot of the late 1990’s.
Outdone by Windows Mobile in 2000.
Outdone by Blackberry in mid-2000’s.
Outdone by iPhone in late-2000’s.
By 2011, iPhone sales only 28% market share in USA; Google Android sales had 59% market share!
What will happen next? Windows Phone 8???

The market is dynamic and continuously changing.
Mercedes and BMW are not Gods.
Lexus can outsell Benz and Beamer provided they have a high quality product.
No excuses.


2) There are not enough body styles like: liftbacks, wagons, coupes, and convertibles.
This is partly true, but not completely true.
Look at Lexus own RX – just the one body style, but sells like hot cakes.
Look at the 5 Series – they are mainly sedans, yet they sell 42,000+ units/yr/USA.
Look at the Camry – just sedan only, yet America’s biggest selling car.

3) There are not enough engine variations eg capacity variations, 4 cylinders, V8’s, diesels etc.
This is also partly true, but not completely true.
Look at Lexus own RX – just 3.5 or hybrid, but sells like hot cakes.
In 2005, the RX amassed 108,775 units in the USA.
In 2006, the RX amassed 108,348 units in the USA.
In 2010, the RX amassed 95,790 units in the USA, despite the GFC.
Just one body style, and only two engine choices; no excuses.
When a car is truly good, it sells – no excuses.

4) Fleet Sales and Leasing.
This is also partly true, but not completely true.
If a car is good enough, it would be in the fleet in the first place.
We all lease cars.
It's not just Benz and Beamers that are leased.
There are plenty of Lexiis that are leased too.


Thus, the biggest reason for poor sales, is the quality of the product itself; no excuses.
Sure: names/badges/reputations, body style and engine choices, and fleet sales and leasing - does play only a very minor role.



Sales and “Exclusivity”
This is basically saying – what’s great about poor sales? It’s exclusive and special.
Naturally, as sales increases, the exclusivity decreases.
The argument that Lexus GS should be designed poorly, so that it can sell in small numbers, so that it can feel special – is not a good argument.

If the 4GS sold in mass market volumes like Camries and Accords, then I would be concerned.
However, the Benz E Class with 53,500+ units/yr in the USA last year, I wouldn’t be concerned.
It all depends how exclusive we want to be, I guess.
If we really want to be in the exclusive club, then we must buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce, or even a McClaren F1 – coz there may only be a dozen of those around.



Summary
The new 4GS is certainly an improved car, and I would personally buy it over the E350 and 535i.
Mechanically it is a very sound motor car. Very proficient all around.
However the new 4GS falls well short of being the game changer that I was hoping it would be.
It falls especially short in the styling department.

We must appreciate the 4GS’ strengths, be manly enough to accept the 4GS’s weaknesses, especially the styling; be realistic that the 4GS is no perfect car.
We must send a clear and constructive message to Lexus in Japan, so that they can make the future next generation 5GS a great car.

Misleading people into thinking that the 4GS is a game changer for Lexus, may help to artificially boost 4GS sales in the short term.
However, misleading Lexus of Japan into thinking that the 4GS is a game changer for Lexus doesn’t help the overall cause in the long term.
In the long term, the 4GS wants to be the luxury equivalent of where the mass market Camry is now.
Game changing is all achieved from overall product quality; a car is built from the sum of its many parts. No excuses...

Toys4RJill

The new GS is not the game changer. Lexus needs to show it can sell the LS, IS and most important the ES with the new theme and styling.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

I cannot believe why you all over analyze everything in life. Its not the way to go. The Lexus GS is a game changer in my opinion. Why in the hell did I hate my 2011 BMW 5?? Its boring and numb. I traded it for a 2013 Lexus GS350 F-Sport and put on some excellent Michelin tires and my car can kick my old 2011 BMW 5 series any day. At the end of the day I am happy and I careless what others say. The GS will sell and I know that. We have a 2006 Audi A8L, 2010 Mercedes Ml350, and 2008 BMW 335xi in the garage. Each of them are the best in their categories and impress us and have been reliable over the years. It all comes down to the whole package and offerings.

peteharvey

+1
With hot selling cars like the RX and the units quoted above - Lexus is certainly capable of game changing, but whether they can bite the bullet and really do it - we're all waiting...

peteharvey

That the new 4GS is a "very good" car is absolutely true.
However, "game changing" are very strong words, and a very big ask!
I think some are asking too much of the new Lexus 4GS to be "game changing".

To be game changing, the 4GS will have to be won over and purchased by many more buyers.
We all learn from the past, and use the past to predict the future.
If the past is any good indication, 4GS sales will decline in years to come.
We all wish Lexus could bite the bullet, and come up with some major styling changes around the C pill and the tail, and the dashboard to significantly lift up the 4GS's appearance.
Otherwise, the new 4GS is a very mechanically sound product...

qualityday

I'm going to wait patiently for the 6GS because my salesman friend at lexus says its coming with an 8 speed manual transmission and 2 spare tires instead of only one.

It's a 2016 model but rumor is it's being released by the end of 2012.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

Ok, well said. I agree. I have gotten good comments on the entire car with no complaints on the c-pillar. I know that it is not slope back like my older 3GS that I missed but still.

LexFather

Yes let's continue to ignore that e class sales include coupes. Its not a completely fair comparison.

Pete you said the same thing twice, the 2nd post is just longer.

4GS is a game changer as for the first time the 5 series is not the sportiest car in class. Do you know how hard that was to accomplish?

The 2GS was also a game changer, the first time a Japanese entry succeeded in that class and took it head on with the heavyweights at the time.

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

E class is for badge *****s which why it sells. Old people too who have no clue about cars or what a dipstick or even tire pressure is. It will sell because of brand name despite riding and driving like crap.

kwr

If the GS was beautifully styled and handled exceptionally, it would be a game changer. The XF, 5, A6 and E trump the GS from a styling standpoint. Let's not forget that the 5, A6, and XF have above average handling compared to other sedans (luxury and non-luxury).

I've seen 2 GSs in the Boston metro area -- very forgetable. It's missing the upscale look of the Germans and the XF. Pete is probably right about sales, they'll decrease once the initial demand dies.

The 2nd gen GS430 was supposed to be a game changer and failled. Before this sedan, 300 HP in a "sports sedan" was unheard.

vednam

Wud not say its a game changer..I'd say its a missed opportunity

Rexus300

iTrader: (1)

Nah, the 4GS looks more like a sports luxury sedan while others look bland. The GS blast all of them in handling in motortrend and automobile mag. It makes my 2011 BMW 5 feel old school. ITs selling 2x as much per month compared to Audi and Jaguar XF. Its 3rd rank in sales in USA after BMW 5 and Mercedes E-class. Its good enough for the 24k/year sales goal. Why in the hell do you want to buy a sedan that is sold alot and see it at every street. Its then not exclusive. Lexus is doing the right thing to make the number of sales less. I can not stand seeing that damn E class all over the mall parking lot and the BMW 5 all over downtown. They are so bland and boring. Doesn't turn heads like the GS F-Sport does nor do they get much praise for the styling. When I got my 2011 BMW 5 no one said much about it. When I got the 2013 Lexus GS F-Sport I get raves from people in family, friends, and colleagues.