"I didn't want this car" - Akio Toyoda, about the 4GS
09-05-11, 01:30 PM
#76
I'm not a huge guy but I'm considered a big fella at 6 ft. and 180lbs, I fit in my GS just fine, if I sit completely straight with my seat straight then I come pretty close to the roofline but that is just the sacrifice we make to drive a low roofline car like the 3GS. If I wanted something else, I would've gotten something else, so why complain about how high or low the roofline is? I've never once had anybody complain about the size of my car although I have my reservations on the size and opening of the 3GS trunk.
Last edited by G Star; 09-05-11 at 03:51 PM.
09-05-11, 03:22 PM
#77
I think what everyone wants and is expecting from Lexus, is not going to happen. I am not trying to be pessimistic, its just that some things are obvious from certain car manufacturers. For example, BMW is notorious for building high-level of luxury cars in that they amplify many key areas that SELL!!! They have an X5, X5M, X6, and X6M!! They are tailoring to specific demands, and that is VERY smart and obviously has been working well. Its what people want when they go to BMW! Someone likes the X5, but wants more grunt....OK, here is an X5M, enjoy! There is something for everyone that they offer in that segment. Someone looking for a mid-size sedan with a insane power, handling, and luxury will NOT get that when they go GS shopping...face it, its a FACT! They will go to BMW, Audi, and Mercedes because well, that's what they do. Toyota/Lexus has and will only ever be known for one thing and one thing only....RELIABILITY...and even that has yet to be determined for the future. Neither one of the two brands stir any performance emotions, nor do they actually sell any of it! Look at the LFA.....here is a product of countless hours of research and design, only to caiter to the Ultra-wealthy who will buy maybe a hand-full of these cars a year??? Really Toyota?? Yet, the mass loyal customers who actually put profit in Lexus's pocket (IS, GS, LS, RX, etc...) get outdated engines and "maybe a supercharger"??? Right now is a perfect time for Toyota/Lexus to get their act together and LISTEN to what the actual loyal customers want. Hybrid technology is not fun, it doesn't amplify driving emotions in any way....seriously, when was the last time you drove a Hybrid and got out and said "wow....i want to do that again!"??? Lexus needs to build cars to actually compete with their....ummmm....COMPETITORS. The 4GS will not survive against the E-Class and 5 Series....the Germans are coming up with ideas that are keeping them up top. Toyota/Lexus needs to build on their roots. They have Reliability and Luxury down cold, now.....give us LFA engine technology in a GS-F (not the same engine as a LFA or ISF). Give us "real" DCT transmissions, and not fast shifting automatics. Give us Forced Induction and not Hybrid systems for performance models. Give us interiors that other manufacturers will copy and not copy others.
Me personally, I am waiting for the next IS platform... If it has substantial changes that reflect on the attributes mentioned above, then im sold....if not, Lexus and Toyota will be dead to me.
Btw, this is not a flame post....so please don't flame on.
Me personally, I am waiting for the next IS platform... If it has substantial changes that reflect on the attributes mentioned above, then im sold....if not, Lexus and Toyota will be dead to me.
Btw, this is not a flame post....so please don't flame on.
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bjjones (03-09-22)
09-05-11, 03:59 PM
#78
Lexus Champion
I think what everyone wants and is expecting from Lexus, is not going to happen. I am not trying to be pessimistic, its just that some things are obvious from certain car manufacturers. For example, BMW is notorious for building high-level of luxury cars in that they amplify many key areas that SELL!!! They have an X5, X5M, X6, and X6M!! They are tailoring to specific demands, and that is VERY smart and obviously has been working well. Its what people want when they go to BMW! Someone likes the X5, but wants more grunt....OK, here is an X5M, enjoy! There is something for everyone that they offer in that segment. Someone looking for a mid-size sedan with a insane power, handling, and luxury will NOT get that when they go GS shopping...face it, its a FACT! They will go to BMW, Audi, and Mercedes because well, that's what they do. Toyota/Lexus has and will only ever be known for one thing and one thing only....RELIABILITY...and even that has yet to be determined for the future. Neither one of the two brands stir any performance emotions, nor do they actually sell any of it! Look at the LFA.....here is a product of countless hours of research and design, only to caiter to the Ultra-wealthy who will buy maybe a hand-full of these cars a year??? Really Toyota?? Yet, the mass loyal customers who actually put profit in Lexus's pocket (IS, GS, LS, RX, etc...) get outdated engines and "maybe a supercharger"??? Right now is a perfect time for Toyota/Lexus to get their act together and LISTEN to what the actual loyal customers want. Hybrid technology is not fun, it doesn't amplify driving emotions in any way....seriously, when was the last time you drove a Hybrid and got out and said "wow....i want to do that again!"??? Lexus needs to build cars to actually compete with their....ummmm....COMPETITORS. The 4GS will not survive against the E-Class and 5 Series....the Germans are coming up with ideas that are keeping them up top. Toyota/Lexus needs to build on their roots. They have Reliability and Luxury down cold, now.....give us LFA engine technology in a GS-F (not the same engine as a LFA or ISF). Give us "real" DCT transmissions, and not fast shifting automatics. Give us Forced Induction and not Hybrid systems for performance models. Give us interiors that other manufacturers will copy and not copy others.
Me personally, I am waiting for the next IS platform... If it has substantial changes that reflect on the attributes mentioned above, then im sold....if not, Lexus and Toyota will be dead to me.
Btw, this is not a flame post....so please don't flame on.
Me personally, I am waiting for the next IS platform... If it has substantial changes that reflect on the attributes mentioned above, then im sold....if not, Lexus and Toyota will be dead to me.
Btw, this is not a flame post....so please don't flame on.
The X6 and BMW M cars are niche at best, and don't sell in high numbers.
In the luxury class outside the 3 series segment (where buyers are younger and more demanding) and the niche performance trims (M, AMG etc... which sell in tiny numbers) tenths of a second 0-60 time variations and skid pad numbers don't mean squat compared to comfort, reliability and ease of driving. Lexus knows this and so does BMW, because at the end of the day most buyers who can afford these cars are older.
Even in CNBC's "BMW a Driving Obsession" they followed a couple who were picking up their new 5 series to discuss the experience. Do you think this guy cares about skid pad times and getting 5.1s 0-60 time instead of 5.6s? What do you think he values most?
These are the types of people who buy these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.
Last edited by Mr. Burns; 09-05-11 at 04:04 PM.
09-05-11, 05:49 PM
#80
Performance cars don't sell. The Camry outsells the Accord, always has despite the Accord being better to drive according to the auto mags. The E-class outsells the 5 series, despite the 5 series always being hailed as the fun to drive option. Heck they made the F10 more comfortable and less fun to drive and sales have actually improved.
The X6 and BMW M cars are niche at best, and don't sell in high numbers.
In the luxury class outside the 3 series segment (where buyers are younger and more demanding) and the niche performance trims (M, AMG etc... which sell in tiny numbers) tenths of a second 0-60 time variations and skid pad numbers don't mean squat compared to comfort, reliability and ease of driving. Lexus knows this and so does BMW, because at the end of the day most buyers who can afford these cars are older.
Even in CNBC's "BMW a Driving Obsession" they followed a couple who were picking up their new 5 series to discuss the experience. Do you think this guy cares about skid pad times and getting 5.1s 0-60 time instead of 5.6s? What do you think he values most?
These .are the types of people who buy these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.
The X6 and BMW M cars are niche at best, and don't sell in high numbers.
In the luxury class outside the 3 series segment (where buyers are younger and more demanding) and the niche performance trims (M, AMG etc... which sell in tiny numbers) tenths of a second 0-60 time variations and skid pad numbers don't mean squat compared to comfort, reliability and ease of driving. Lexus knows this and so does BMW, because at the end of the day most buyers who can afford these cars are older.
Even in CNBC's "BMW a Driving Obsession" they followed a couple who were picking up their new 5 series to discuss the experience. Do you think this guy cares about skid pad times and getting 5.1s 0-60 time instead of 5.6s? What do you think he values most?
These .are the types of people who buy these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.
Some people seek driving excitement.
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bjjones (03-09-22)
09-05-11, 07:03 PM
#81
Even in CNBC's "BMW a Driving Obsession" they followed a couple who were picking up their new 5 series to discuss the experience. Do you think this guy cares about skid pad times and getting 5.1s 0-60 time instead of 5.6s? What do you think he values most?
These are the types of people who buy these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.
These are the types of people who buy these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.
It's true... Next time you are next to a BMW, ask the owner what he/she enjoys most about their car. I can bet you that 95% will say handling and power. It's what Bimmers have been known for since their inception.
Todays market is not stupid, ppl know the difference between a performance luxury sedan and a luxury sedan. It is why "gray-haired" folks still buy BMW's and Mercedes over Lexus known damn-well that the Lexus will outlast any luxury car maker for years to come.
Yeah, a tenth of a second doesn't matter on the street or track with these cars....but, on paper and in the media, the "winner" matters. As stupid as society is, it will always go for that... That is why Lexus needs to elevate its company and start competing with the big boys, because if performance levels become even throughout all the luxo-makers, then Toyota/Lexus will have the upper-hand with their reliability.
09-06-11, 04:23 AM
#82
If they are going for sheer performance and reviews, wouldnt they all be buying A6 3.0T quattro that kicked some a** in comparo's? It is faster in every possible way.
09-06-11, 06:57 AM
#83
Enthusiasts buy for performance but we are outnumbered 20 to 1.
Take Infiniti, a brand that always stressed driving performance with it's luxury. They remade themselves with the G35. It saved the brand. But look at their recent move to de-power the G35 sedan down to the G25. Why, they know what the majority of people really value....and it isn't performance numbers. It's gas mileage, reliability and comfort with looks being in there depending on each person.
As much as I like power I don't like it as much as many of you guys. I'm happy with 300 hp. I just need enough to get up and go when it's time. I'm not racing and I am not trying to out-do anyone else. I'm not trying to compensate for a lack of penile girth. I do care about handling, reliability and looks. A lowered and rimmed Lexus isn't perfect but it gives me most of what I want in handling. I change the looks because I want to make it my own.
If Lexus built a more powerful GS, yes I would be happy. But to say they are doing something wrong by giving us 300 hp cars....I can't agree with that.
09-06-11, 07:38 AM
#84
Performance is more than just horsepower. Steering feel, handeling, braking, and its execution goes towards performance. The 28i BMWs for example are more balanced machines than the 35i cars. Many who have driven both will tell you the same. I went with the 35i because of the two snails under the hood that will not require cutting & pasting to make power. I bought this car and it is not leased based on my experience with the 07 which was.
Now, the big question will be if the 4 GS will deliver "performance" to the masses. Forget the magazines. I listended to magazines with the GS400 and it was not exactly great as they touted in stock form. I hope this car will be different.
Now, the big question will be if the 4 GS will deliver "performance" to the masses. Forget the magazines. I listended to magazines with the GS400 and it was not exactly great as they touted in stock form. I hope this car will be different.
09-06-11, 01:16 PM
#86
ummm,no....maybe 95% of owners on BMW i-net forums, but in the real world, 99% of owners drive a BMW because of the blue/white emblem...they could care less how well the car handles, how fast it is, what size engine it has, etc...as long as the car has the BMW emblem on it, so that OTHER drivers know what brand they're driving, they're perfectly happy and proud of themselves...true "enthusiasts" are a tiny fraction of all owners
09-06-11, 01:44 PM
#87
ummm,no....maybe 95% of owners on BMW i-net forums, but in the real world, 99% of owners drive a BMW because of the blue/white emblem...they could care less how well the car handles, how fast it is, what size engine it has, etc...as long as the car has the BMW emblem on it, so that OTHER drivers know what brand they're driving, they're perfectly happy and proud of themselves...true "enthusiasts" are a tiny fraction of all owners
This apply to all high end brand name merchandises, BMW, Benz, Ferrari, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, Versace.........etc.
Their pretentious owners just care about the brand, logo, label and how high the MSRP is. What the product actually offer is completely irrelevant.
A brand name obsessed girl once told me a compact E36 318i with a 140 hp 4 cylinders is a way sicker car then a mid size GS430 with a 300 hp V8. Enough said.
Last edited by BNR34; 09-06-11 at 01:50 PM.
09-06-11, 01:51 PM
#88
Agreed 100%
This apply to all high end brand name merchandises, BMW, Benz, Ferrari, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, Versace.........etc.
Their pretentious owners just care about the brand, logo, label and how high the MSRP is. What the product actually offer is completely irrelevant.
A brand name obsessed girl once told me a compact E36 318i with a 140 hp 4 cylinders is a way sicker car then a mid size GS430 with a 300 hp V8. Enough said.
This apply to all high end brand name merchandises, BMW, Benz, Ferrari, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, Versace.........etc.
Their pretentious owners just care about the brand, logo, label and how high the MSRP is. What the product actually offer is completely irrelevant.
A brand name obsessed girl once told me a compact E36 318i with a 140 hp 4 cylinders is a way sicker car then a mid size GS430 with a 300 hp V8. Enough said.
09-06-11, 02:11 PM
#89
Lexus is one of them, the difference is only in the different level of snobby-ness. For example, Benz have a much higher bling/snob factor then Lexus, even today.
That's why most people think Hyundai not establishing a separate premium brand for their highend line is a big mistake. It cut out all the poor snobs who are shopping for a badge.
Last edited by BNR34; 09-06-11 at 02:15 PM.
09-06-11, 02:49 PM
#90
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: southern cali, san gabriel valley
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wow new found respect for BMW, just saw the special on CNBC and was very impressed. The europeans know how to make and design a car.
it's amazing that even with it's reliability issues, it manages to keep it's sales figures up there with it's competition. That is truly impressive and something a lot of manufacturers need to understand...it's that draw and desire for a car that brings them into the dealership.
it's amazing that even with it's reliability issues, it manages to keep it's sales figures up there with it's competition. That is truly impressive and something a lot of manufacturers need to understand...it's that draw and desire for a car that brings them into the dealership.