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"I didn't want this car" - Akio Toyoda, about the 4GS

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Old 09-06-11, 02:50 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BNR34 View Post
....That's why most people think Hyundai not establishing a separate premium brand for their highend line is a big mistake...
i think Hyundai still has a ways to go before they can successfully
create a premium brand/branch...i'm not saying they don't make good reliable, solid cars, it's just that I don't think Hyundai has enough acceptance in the US as a quality brand to get people to go for their "premium" line

Nissan, Honda, and Toyota had better brand recognition/respect when they created separate luxo-brands

i think in time Hyundai will overcome their current reputation, but it will still take quite a few years before the "average joe" doesn't snicker when they say/hear the word Hyundai
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Old 09-06-11, 02:59 PM   #92
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Performance is more than just horsepower. Steering feel, handeling, braking, and its execution goes towards performance. The 28i BMWs for example are more balanced machines than the 35i cars. Many who have driven both will tell you the same. I went with the 35i because of the two snails under the hood that will not require cutting & pasting to make power. I bought this car and it is not leased based on my experience with the 07 which was.

Now, the big question will be if the 4 GS will deliver "performance" to the masses. Forget the magazines. I listended to magazines with the GS400 and it was not exactly great as they touted in stock form. I hope this car will be different.
That's what im talking about DASH....it doesn't necessarily mean who can sprint from stop light A to stop light B in X seconds. Sheer performance being excellent handling, braking, etc... BMW has kicked everyone's butt in this since before anyone of us were born. Yeah some people buy them for name, but realistically, BMW's are sports cars first then luxury cars...they have advertised this for years...that's why people will continue to buy them regardless of their reliability.
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Old 09-06-11, 03:04 PM   #93
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really? This is why best selling 3 and 5 series are 328i and 528i?

If they are going for sheer performance and reviews, wouldnt they all be buying A6 3.0T quattro that kicked some a** in comparo's? It is faster in every possible way.
Performance doesn't always mean bigger *****... Put the lowest class BMW versus a mid-level Audi and i can almost assure u that the Bimmer would win because of its balanced high-performance...even though the Audi is more powerful. Not alot of car makers can do that...remember, BMW's are Luxury Sports Cars...not fast made luxury cars.
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Old 09-07-11, 07:00 AM   #94
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Performance cars don't sell. The Camry outsells the Accord, always has despite the Accord being better to drive according to the auto mags. The E-class outsells the 5 series, despite the 5 series always being hailed as the fun to drive option. Heck they made the F10 more comfortable and less fun to drive and sales have actually improved.

The X6 and BMW M cars are niche at best, and don't sell in high numbers.

In the luxury class outside the 3 series segment (where buyers are younger and more demanding) and the niche performance trims (M, AMG etc... which sell in tiny numbers) tenths of a second 0-60 time variations and skid pad numbers don't mean squat compared to comfort, reliability and ease of driving. Lexus knows this and so does BMW, because at the end of the day most buyers who can afford these cars are older.

Even in CNBC's "BMW a Driving Obsession" they followed a couple who were picking up their new 5 series to discuss the experience. Do you think this guy cares about skid pad times and getting 5.1s 0-60 time instead of 5.6s? What do you think he values most?

Click the image to open in full size.

These are the types of people who LEASE these cars. They want solid, comfortable, quiet, easy to drive, and inoffensive cars.

BMW has figured out that people mostly don't care about true sport, performance etc. It is clear they are chasing sales like everyone else and they have gotten fatter, fluffier and less involving. Examples

1. Manuals are becoming harder to find in BMWs, replaced by DCT.
2. "M" cars now include 5500 lbs SUVs for crying out loud.
3. The 5 series which went from one of the smallest and lightest in class is now one of the biggest and heaviest in class.
4. The 7 series is barely the sportiest car in class, just gotten whooped in another comparo.
5. FWD BMWs are coming.
6. 80% of 1 series drivers think the car is FWD.
7. BMW has more SUVs than Lexus, X1, X3, X5, X6
8. The data every year shows people lease BMWS. They are rentable vehicles returned before the warranty expires.

etc etc


There is a hardcore group that buys BMW for their sporting qualities. Most of the time the car is leased, is not a sport model and driven to the mall and work like most cars. I agree in the PAST nothing felt like a BMW but today as other brands have gotten sportier its harder to tell the difference and I find BMWs less sporty in some cases.

BMW is a business in the business of making money. They could no longer afford to make cars the way they used to and they had to assimilate to stay competitive. BMW still sells like hotcakes, still is in demand and still is an exceptional auto company. Bangle proved, people will buy a BMW no matter what. I give them credit for evolving.

I said it years ago, with sporty brands getting softer and the competition getting sportier, the line is blurred and makes arguing over sporty nearly redundant at this point.
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Old 09-07-11, 08:35 AM   #95
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Responses in red. No need to call for back up and cry foul on an opinion based forum.
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BMW has figured out that people mostly don't care about true sport, performance etc. It is clear they are chasing sales like everyone else and they have gotten fatter, fluffier and less involving. Examples

1. Manuals are becoming harder to find in BMWs, replaced by DCT.Becoming harder to find & replaced in which BMW models as cars can be configured by the customer?
2. "M" cars now include 5500 lbs SUVs for crying out loud.If most people who shop BMW don't care abot "true sport" as you've mentioned, why build M Suvs. Who would purchase such vehicles?
3. The 5 series which went from one of the smallest and lightest in class is now one of the biggest and heaviest in class.[COLOR="Red"]The 5 series still drives better than the competion which includes the understeer Queen Audi
A6, current GS and others. Forget the mags & rags[COLOR="Red"]

4. The 7 series is barely the sportiest car in class, just gotten whooped in another comparo.See response in #3
5. FWD BMWs are coming.The FWD models will be a part of the BMW sub-brand known as "i"
6. 80% of 1 series drivers think the car is FWD.Can't help their short comings
7. BMW has more SUVs than Lexus, X1, X3, X5, X6Variety is good. Not everyone is in need of an SUV the size of the X5. Like me
8. The data every year shows people lease BMWS. They are rentable vehicles returned before the warranty expires. I notice a lot of 2008 Lexus IS-F's on sale here and the open market. Are these vehicles purchases? Why is that? Perhaps you can apply your answer to those who choose to lease BMW

etc etc

I can go on but no need to get carpul tunnel over this stuff lol
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Old 09-07-11, 08:38 AM   #96
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enough about bmw, please get back on topic.
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Old 09-07-11, 09:06 AM   #97
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Responses in red. No need to call for back up and cry foul on an opinion based forum.
People buy sports/luxury vehicles for the same reason they buy sports uniforms or appareil... for show. It's all about branding and the vast majority of M buyers have the money to look it. It also differentiates them from others. Do you really think they push those vehicles to their limits?
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Old 09-07-11, 09:23 AM   #98
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People buy sports/luxury vehicles for the same reason they buy sports uniforms or appareil... for show. It's all about branding and the vast majority of M buyers have the money to look it. It also differentiates them from others. Do you really think they push those vehicles to their limits?
The discussion has been limited to Lexus. Using your question ,lets plug in Lexus F in the place of brand X. I think a large percentage do push those vehicles to the limit given the opportunity. I hope that answers your question.
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Old 09-07-11, 09:36 AM   #99
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Responses in red. No need to call for back up and cry foul on an opinion based forum.
Double Post.
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Old 09-07-11, 09:38 AM   #100
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The discussion has been limited to Lexus. Using your question ,lets plug in Lexus F in the place of brand X. I think a large percentage do push those vehicles to the limit given the opportunity. I hope that answers your question.
They don't. They buy them because of the prestige, not because of their features.
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Old 09-07-11, 07:46 PM   #101
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I beat the crap out of an E60 M5 today in my "hybrid" b/c the driver clearly didn't know how to drive. Thought of this thread Guy is googling "GS 450h" right now

Lexus needs to simply expand the "F" lineup like how the Germans did. They didn't have all these models overnight, took decades.

Its crystal clear that people want their Lexus, their BMW, Benz etc....we all win!!
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